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Apparently, I'm an Idiot- And So Are You

Ankari

Hero Breaker
Moderator
"You can't convince me otherwise" implies that one has no interest in engaging in a discussion. Why even post, then?

You're right. Withdrawn.

William Faulkner on Ernest Hemingway: “He has never been known to use a word that might send a reader to the dictionary.”
Ernest Hemingway on William Faulkner: "Poor Faulkner. Does he really think big emotions come from big words?”

I'm not talking about "big words," I'm talking about "big ideas."

Someone once quoted a line where an older author wrote something like A parasitic sack dragging on the slight woman (paraphrased). That is purple prose and paints a different picture than A swollen belly burdened the petite woman. I get a clearer picture of the girl AND the author's intent.

All of this is attributed to intelligence...I find that to be premature. All of this can be explained by changes in taste or an increase in reader intelligence.

I already clarified my statement with

I didn't mean, not fully anyway, that readers are intellectually stunted. I'm more concerned about their lack of patience and attention span.

And I linked an article speaking particularly about attention span.

I think that most of these arguments derive from attributing my statement personally. Just to make a clarifying statement, I am a modern reader. I'm only 33, but that places me on the transitional border between the olden days and the new way of modern prose. I fully admit that reading some of the older stuff doesn't appeal to me because it can't hold my attention. I'm trying to recall a book that I remember vividly disliking, but can't.

Another point. The teachers forcing us to read classical books helped me love writing. I didn't like the stories so much, but the passion she (I attribute my enhanced love of literature to one teacher) had about her classical books (Wuthering Heights an example) made me want the same thing. Also, she encouraged me to enter a local writing contest, even when I dragged my feet because of teenage insecurities. Don't hate teachers, they open up realms of potential to the waiting mind.

As an aside, if flowery writing is purple prose, is modern writing grey prose?
 
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Mindfire

Istar
I'm glad that worked out for you, Ankari. But nothing kills my enjoyment of a book more than having an assignment on it. Also, there is such a thing as beige prose. Although I would say that most modern writing falls somewhere in between purple and beige.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
I think an interesting question is:

In modern writing, is there room for some purple prose?

Every time I've tried to insert any, I've gotten generally negative feedback from my readers. I kept some of it in anyway, though, just because I liked it.

(I'm thinking that Ankari and Steerpike are going to be nearly apoplectic at the thought of me writing anything remotely considered purple.)
 
This is a pretty fascinating and extremely complex topic. I think most of the points I would have made have already been made, but in a simplistic and overly generalised nutshell - I reckon literature is inevitably a reflection of the milieu in which it was generated (it wouldn't get published otherwise). 18th, 19th century literature was generated by the literate few for the literate few and reflected their class interests, idioms and world. With the dilution of political power and massive increase in literacy, the market changed profoundly throughout the 20th century and continues to change. On top of that, the science of literature has evolved and become far more sophisticated - the literature of today leaps onto the shoulders of what went before and forges whole new frontiers in step with the evolution of society.

There are all sorts of levels and types of literature these days, but to what extent do you generate 'literary' work? Maybe that's an idea for another thread, but I guess the questions are:

- can your work be appreciated in a multi-textural sense?
- does your work convey any subtextual meaning?
- do you experiment with craft and form?
- do you care about any of these things at all?

It seems to me the most popular books these days are not literary, but I can't help but write literary works. It's what I naturally do, and probably no surprise that the only book I've written where I really tried not to be literary is by miles my most successful. (It's still a bit literary though.)
 

Ankari

Hero Breaker
Moderator
I think an interesting question is:

In modern writing, is there room for some purple prose?

Every time I've tried to insert any, I've gotten generally negative feedback from my readers. I kept some of it in anyway, though, just because I liked it.

I think there is and should be a good portion of purple prose in modern literature. I watched a few of the Brandon Sanderson videos linked here recently and he discussed the difference between epic fantasy and other works like thrillers (You know the song is playing in your head). In it, he addressed immersion, pace, and cliffhangers. He said that epic fantasies are not meant to be read in a short period of time. They're meant to move the reader from their world to the author's world. This requires immersion. Immersion incorporates description of scenery, emotions, and people. From this, I'm assuming that purple prose is not only allowed, but necessary to slow the pace of the book and immerse the reader.

He goes on further to state that he doesn't like to use cliffhangers at all. Readers of epic fantasy must consider the world of the author has fashioned. Allowing a reader to sit back and think about what was presented in a scene is encouraged. (I've done this a few times with Deadhouse Gates. I don't reread books, but Deadhouse Gates will be reread soon).

If you're interested, he stated that thrillers and mysteries are meant to be read relatively quickly. So thrillers use tons of cliffhangers and very little immersion.
 

Mindfire

Istar
I think there is and should be a good portion of purple prose in modern literature.

There's room in modern literature for creative description, but not for purple prose. Purple prose, almost by definition, means that you've overdone it. Rather than purple or beige prose, a writer ought strive for the happy medium in my humble opinion.
 
I think there is and should be a good portion of purple prose in modern literature. I watched a few of the Brandon Sanderson videos linked here recently and he discussed the difference between epic fantasy and other works like thrillers (You know the song is playing in your head). In it, he addressed immersion, pace, and cliffhangers. He said that epic fantasies are not meant to be read in a short period of time. They're meant to move the reader from their world to the author's world.

I believe that I write epic fantasy and I think I do a good job at the whole "secondary world" thing, but saying that epic fantasies have to be slowly digested is like saying you have to savor tiramisu. You can eat it quickly! and if you do, you might get more before someone else gets to it! In fact, read it at a breakneck speed, regurgitate it so you have more room and read it again!

In fact, this is what I did with Sanderson's "Way of Kings"! The last 300 pages I felt like I was going at the speed of light. I feverishly completed the book only to re-read the last few hundred pages AGAIN.

One of my proofreading/editing attempts with my book had me read the entire thing aloud. It got to the point where I was going to have a heart attack and would have to force myself to take breaks and "come down". The respites in my books are short, the rest of it feels like a wild ride. If you read it out, then be prepared to work yourself up!

Anyway, back to the original poster, I completely agree that we have shorter attention spans, and I think that is a good thing. Well, I have a very short attention span. My time is important. Give me the goods.

I don't think it means we are less intelligent or even less sophisticated. We don't use the vocabulary our forefathers used. So what? It's different styles, not less intelligence. And we are not going to subject readers to something that takes them out of the story. I don't think that is a bad thing either. Although, to be fair, when reading old-timey authors like Melville or Tolkien, I usually skim/skip the crap. You guys actually spend time reading it?

Although having ADHD might help with that...
 
Just looked up purple prose....

...I do that for my vampire character in some short stories (although I am concerned because I do not have the energy to keep it up for his chapters throughout the second novel -_-)




Aside: I was hoping this topic was going to be on the doom of civilization, apocalypse, revelation, cataclysm, etc because of the first few words of the OP =P
 
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shangrila

Inkling
Purple prose, as I understand it, is excessive and often unnecessary decriptions. I haven't seen that in any of the recent epic fantasy books I've read (First Law, Malazan, etc).

I can't imagine it would be used as an immersive tool, since part of the problem with purple prose is it's so jarring to read it sucks the reader out of the story.

Just avoid purple prose whenever possible. That's my opinion, anyway.
 

Lorna

Inkling
@ Steerpike

I don't think modern readers are stupid. I think a lot of modern writers think they are and write accordingly.

I couldn't agree more. I feel that as writers we have a duty to amaze, astound and enchant readers with the force of our stories and beauty of our prose. Rather than attempting to limit our imagination and the form we give it in the written word to 'the mass market' - which is a product of capitalist society, we should direct our work at real people.

I think it's a case of finding a balance between creating a work full of heart and soul that anybody outside the fantasy genre can relate to, but at the same time taking them on a journey into another world and into uncharted areas of imagination. If we're going to create new worlds and peoples this means creating unique imagery and metaphor and exploring the outer bounds of language. That's what makes fantasy difficult to write but at the same time challenging and exciting.
 

grimreaper

Scribe
I

I still question whether today's readers really cannot tolerate so-called "purple prose". Certainly Christopher Paolini and Stephanie Meyer, supposedly notorious for that kind of prose, nonetheless won over large fanbases in their heyday, so clearly a lot of casual readers can comprehend their writing. If anything, laypeople might actually find "purple prose" more awe-inspiring than writers conditioned to abhor it. When I read Eragon once as a teenager, I loved some of Paolini's descriptions to the point of envy. Even today, my problems with his Inheritance Cycle have more to do with his trite worldbuilding and apparent plagiarism of the Star Wars plots than his writing style per se.

My thoughts exactly. :biggrin:
 
I'm glad I stumbled upon this topic :)

Personally, I have had to look at myself in the mirror several times over the past few years and ask myself the question 'Do I still want to keep writing original ideas', even though a) I don't consider myself to be a good writer and b) I think that mass media views writers and original writing as 'crazy'.

Ever since, I have held a strong view that to get anywhere, you need to 'know somebody who knows somebody' and that the lust for money and predictability (after the banking crisis) in today's world has meant that original thinking has been kicked into the sidelines. If you look at European financial news, the markets want 'predictability', and I think that this 'predictability' extends into creativity. If the masses want something, they'll get it, no matter what.

(Sorry for rant - the 'fallout' from looking at myself has resulted in depression over the years.)
 

gavintonks

Maester
stories and literature resonate to you at a time and place, I have one child that reads and another says why read when you can watch the film. The growth of any creative endeavor art, literature, writing [separated literature as being written by the dead] is based on finding a new form of expression that
1 - a cost factor is the first mitigating factor you cannot be a starving artist and not be able to buy the materials
2 - the feeling of claustrophobia restricted by the way things were done
3 - the need to meet demand
4 - being the first allows you certain leeway
5 - having good salespeople or being a good salesperson to sell your work [hard]
 
Purple prose, as I understand it, is excessive and often unnecessary decriptions. I haven't seen that in any of the recent epic fantasy books I've read (First Law, Malazan, etc).

I can't imagine it would be used as an immersive tool, since part of the problem with purple prose is it's so jarring to read it sucks the reader out of the story.

Just avoid purple prose whenever possible. That's my opinion, anyway.

Well, to my vampire everything is excessively and unnecessarily described. Obviously I mean without the negative connotations though.
 
I think the simplest answer is that the audience has changed. Is Moby Dick great because it still speaks to generations of readers sixteen decades after its publication? Or is it great because it shows up on all the lists of Great Classics™ and because they teach it in high schools and colleges, regardless of whether modern readers can relate to it?

It's plain that there's a lot of value to be derived from many older works; the problem is that those writers, with rare exception, simply cannot have written in a way that easily speaks to later generations, mainly because there's no way for them to know what kind of voices the later generations will respond to, let alone how the language itself will evolve. I personally have very little love for Shakespeare (gasp! horrors!), mainly because it's so difficult for me to get past the prose and just enjoy the story. Every Shakespeare adaptation I've enjoyed has always done away with his prose and told the story in a modern voice. I'd (arrogantly) challenge anyone to look back over my body of writing (both here and in my fiction) and claim that I'm just stupid or have no attention span, and yet here stands the fact that I just don't really grok Shakespeare. And even I can admit that Shakespeare's prose has a great poetry to it, even when examined in isolation; I just can't stand listening to it when I'm trying to follow a story.

Any assertion that people in Ye Olden Days were somehow superior because they read Moby Dick instead of watching Jersey Shore is pure nonsense. People back then read just as much brainless trash as we read now; it's just that most of that was forgotten because classics departments didn't preserve it.
 
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