swordfighting

[grimreaper]

Recently, I read a post by zero angel on another thread , where it was said

The difference is a lot. There is a trick to holding a sword and swinging it. It's not the same as picking up a stick off the ground and swinging it (I'm not comparing it to bo-staff fighting or kendo or something like that, just saying that it's not just picking it up and swinging it). There's a LOT of subtleties in fighting that is NOT natural. And there's really nothing that we do in our lives that prepare us for sword-fighting (although other martial arts do help with the basic principles).

That made me sit up and take notice, because I always thought that sword fighting was not much different from fighting with a stick .

So , my question is :- can any one please direct me to a place (a book, an website, anything) , where I can learn enough about sword fighting to write about it in my novel without sounding stupid? I already tried looking around in my locality , but did not manage to find any such thing as a fencing master.

 

[Kit]

I already tried looking around in my locality , but did not manage to find any such thing as a fencing master.

If you want to actually LEARN to use a sword (how better to be able to write swordfighting?!), there are several martial arts that incorporate it. I've used swords in both Tai Chi and Kung Fu. Just be warned that most legit teachers will make you train for quite a while on basics and empty-hands work before they start putting sharp objects in your hands.

 

[CupofJoe]

Re-enactment groups might be a good source. I learnt a lot from a brief time with a Viking Horde... ah sweet memories....

 

[Telcontar]

I'm not sure I agree that there is some "trick" to wielding a sword that separates it from using a stick in a similar way. I am very well versed in several martial arts, one of which is Arnis (a weapon style using rattan canes). Furthermore I fence, and do stage combat choreography, along with a few other odds and ends. Suffice to say, I'm not an expert on swordfighting, but I think I have a pretty good grasp on the basics.

A stick and a properly-weighted, double-edged sword (for many sword types , "properly-weighted" means to place the center of balance as close to the hand as possible) differ in one primary way: striking surface. The stick can hit along any part of itself with similar results, whereas a sword obviously needs to use one of the bladed edges. However, the optimal striking surfaces are the same. A sword is bladed to the fore and back, rather than to each side, because that is where the muscles in the human arm can apply the most force. Thus, you want to use a stick in the same way, because you can hit the hardest.

Obviously much of the minutia changes - favored strikes and targets, how you defend, etc - but for the basic motions, you swing a sword (again, of the double-edged, middle-ages sort) and a stick in much the same way.

 

[Anders Ämting]

Recently, I read a post by zero angel on another thread , where it was said

That made me sit up and take notice, because I always thought that sword fighting was not much different from fighting with a stick .

So , my question is :- can any one please direct me to a place (a book, an website, anything) , where I can learn enough about sword fighting to write about it in my novel without sounding stupid? I already tried looking around in my locality , but did not manage to find any such thing as a fencing master.

Before you make any other assumptions, an important caveat: Different styles of swordfighting will have different ideas of how to do things. Even seasoned martial artists tend to assume that what they have been taught in their specific style is the correct way while all others are mistaken, but the truth is that there is as many ways to use a sword as there are types of swords. This is good to keep in mind.

If you want to actually LEARN to use a sword (how better to be able to write swordfighting?!), there are several martial arts that incorporate it. I've used swords in both Tai Chi and Kung Fu. Just be warned that most legit teachers will make you train for quite a while on basics and empty-hands work before they start putting sharp objects in your hands.

I recommend finding a HEMA group. In my experience, they tend not to mess around much with theory - the one I visited took a few minutes explaining the most basic guards and attacks, then gave me a waster and told me to defend myself. After spending months learning kendo without ever getting to actually fight anyone, it was very liberating.

I'm not sure I agree that there is some "trick" to wielding a sword that separates it from using a stick in a similar way. I am very well versed in several martial arts, one of which is Arnis (a weapon style using rattan canes). Furthermore I fence, and do stage combat choreography, along with a few other odds and ends. Suffice to say, I'm not an expert on swordfighting, but I think I have a pretty good grasp on the basics.

A stick and a properly-weighted, double-edged sword (for many sword types , "properly-weighted" means to place the center of balance as close to the hand as possible) differ in one primary way: striking surface. The stick can hit along any part of itself with similar results, whereas a sword obviously needs to use one of the bladed edges. However, the optimal striking surfaces are the same. A sword is bladed to the fore and back, rather than to each side, because that is where the muscles in the human arm can apply the most force. Thus, you want to use a stick in the same way, because you can hit the hardest.

Obviously much of the minutia changes - favored strikes and targets, how you defend, etc - but for the basic motions, you swing a sword (again, of the double-edged, middle-ages sort) and a stick in much the same way.

Mechanically speaking, swinging a sword is not very different from swinging a stick. They'll probably have different weight and balance, but there are only so many ways to swing around a long object. In fact, the so-called singlestick was the most common tool for training military swordsmanship from the 16th century and onward.

That said, when you get down to the specifics, you will usually want a training tool that is as close to the actual weapon as possible. Differances in weight and balance will warp your form and create bad habits, and some techniques will require a sword with a specific shape, etc. In that sense "a stick" will only take you so far.

You mention bladed edges. That actually brings us to an aspect of swordfighting that's most people tend to overlook: The simple fact that cutting properly with a sword is actually really tricky. Very few manage it on their first try. It's not just a matter of how hard you hit or how much you have trained the motion - just getting the edge a little bit out of alignment will cause the attack to fail and you will only cause a small nick, the rest being blunt force. Among us recreational water-bottle cutters, it's called "batting", because you end up sending your bottle flying as if hit by a bat.

Even if you are very skilled at a certain style, like kenjutsu or one of the Chinese schools, I bet you could completely fail to execute a sword swing that would actually cause serious damage unless you've specifically trained to aquire real cutting skills. And the only way you are going to aquire those skills is to actually cut stuff over and over until you can do it intuitively.

 

[Anders Ämting]

Grimreaper - Is there any type of swordfighting you are particularly interested in? There's a lot of decent videos on youtube that can give you a good idea of how swordfighting works, but again, it varies a lot depending on style.

 

[Caged Maiden]

You'll want to narrow down what you're trying to write. I personally am a member of the SCA, where I fence and am learning cut and thrust. The types of swords dictate the style, and so that'll be where you want to start. The game changes when you have a rapier and your opponent has a two-hander. In that instance, I can't see the heavier sword winning, the fencer will pick his opponent apart.

Also, be wary of things like shattering blades, long, drawn out combats, etc. Most sword fights were in reality, ended rather quickly, and while writing, if authenticity is your goal, you might want to mention the weapons being used so the people here can help a bit more.

If I can answer any specific questions about sword fighting (Since I do it twice a week), of you'd like me to read over the combat scene, feel free to PM me.

Best wishes.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Here's a link to a sword fight I wrote you can look at for ideas :

http://mythicscribes.com/forums/challenges/2546-mfma-tournament-battles.html

 

[Kit]

I recommend finding a HEMA group. In my experience, they tend not to mess around much with theory - the one I visited took a few minutes explaining the most basic guards and attacks, then gave me a waster and told me to defend myself. After spending months learning kendo without ever getting to actually fight anyone, it was very liberating.

((wince)) When I said that about "a legit teacher will make you train a lot before giving you a sword" I didn't mean that that was a BAD thing. If you really want to know what you're doing, and be good at it, working stances, theory and other basics for a long time first is the way to go. YMMV.

There are a crap ton of bad MA schools and bad MA teachers out there, and you have to be careful. Not saying that a teacher who hands a sword to a rank virgin is necessarily a bad teacher, but I would find that a bit worrisome.

 

[grimreaper]

Grimreaper - Is there any type of swordfighting you are particularly interested in? There's a lot of decent videos on youtube that can give you a good idea of how swordfighting works, but again, it varies a lot depending on style.

yes I am interested in the eastern styles (Japanese and ancient Indian to be precise).

You mention bladed edges. That actually brings us to an aspect of swordfighting that's most people tend to overlook: The simple fact that cutting properly with a sword is actually really tricky. Very few manage it on their first try. It's not just a matter of how hard you hit or how much you have trained the motion - just getting the edge a little bit out of alignment will cause the attack to fail and you will only cause a small nick, the rest being blunt force. Among us recreational water-bottle cutters, it's called "batting", because you end up sending your bottle flying as if hit by a bat.

when I talked about sounding stupid , I meant not knowing this sort of thing , actually.

If you want to actually LEARN to use a sword (how better to be able to write swordfighting?!), there are several martial arts that incorporate it.

I agree . However the only martial artist teacher in my whole town is my karate teacher and even he said he won't be able to help me with this , as he has little experience of weapons-based martial arts.

Here's a link to a sword fight I wrote you can look at for ideas :

thanks.

Thanks to all those who took the time out to read and reply. If you can provide some more help, it will be deeply appreciated.

 

[pskelding]

The documentary film Reclaiming the Blade will make you rethink swordfighting in medieval Europe.

Also there's a great free PDF fight manual here http://www.thearma.org/Fight-Earnestly.htm which is a real translated fight manual circa 1459 which shows many medieval techniques.

There's also many videos on YouTube that are helpful.

I can't really point out anything on ancient Indian techniques though.

 

[Anders Ämting]

((wince)) When I said that about "a legit teacher will make you train a lot before giving you a sword" I didn't mean that that was a BAD thing. If you really want to know what you're doing, and be good at it, working stances, theory and other basics for a long time first is the way to go. YMMV.

There are a crap ton of bad MA schools and bad MA teachers out there, and you have to be careful. Not saying that a teacher who hands a sword to a rank virgin is necessarily a bad teacher, but I would find that a bit worrisome.

Oh, I know there are a lot of questionable schools, but I also believe some serious styles waste a lot of time drilling in the basics for arbitrary reasons. (Sometimes deliberatelly, as part of some misguided philosophy about teaching patience, or overblown concerns about safety.) Don't get me wrong, I agree the basics are important, but I see no reason not to include sparring from day one as well. I believe you learn faster that way.

The nice thing about HEMA is that it's such a new thing it doesn't have a lot of traditional martial arts mindset attached to it, so they are often more concerned about getting results. (And having fun.)

yes I am interested in the eastern styles (Japanese and ancient Indian to be precise).

Japanese swordsmanship would be kenjutsu, preferably older koryu styles. It should be relatively easy to find, though I expect it's mostly kata. I have seen very little actual kenjutsu sparring.

Indian styles are trickier, though you probably want to look up Kalaripayattu.

when I talked about sounding stupid , I meant not knowing this sort of thing , actually.

That's not so stupid - like I said, not a lot of people actually think about it.

In fact, I can't recall ever reading a single fantasy book that brings up the subject of cutting practice.

I agree . However the only martial artist teacher in my whole town is my karate teacher and even he said he won't be able to help me with this , as he has little experience of weapons-based martial arts.

Sounds like it's the internet for you, then.

 

[Jabrosky]

Also, be wary of things like shattering blades, long, drawn out combats, etc. Most sword fights were in reality, ended rather quickly

Thank goodness, I sometimes worry that my action scenes in general end too quickly. Too much sword-swinging and parrying grows repetitious to write anyway.

 

[Anders Ämting]

Regarding how long swordfights lasted, it actually depends a bit. Usually they wouldn't have lasted long, but sometimes they would drag out. It depends a bit on the circumstances, how aggressive the fighters are and what type of swordfight.

For example: Rapiers and similar dueling swords were notoriously unpredictable in terms of killing power - sometimes you could kill or disable your opponent almost instantly with a single thrust, sometimes you could keep stabbing each other over and over until one could not continue fighting due to the many wounds eventually taking their toll, which could take up to an hour or more. An Italian fencer named Agesilao Greco is said to have fought a duel that lasted almost four hours.

And that reminds me, a good book on swords and fencing is Richard Cohen's By the Sword. It's full of interesting stuff like that.

 

[SeverinR]

There is alot of difference between Europe sword fighting and Oriental. Basically the weapons are different and the armor of the target is different.

Pick what style you want to write about and look into that. Don't just learn oriental martial arts and expect to know about European style. Also don't learn the "art" of fighting and expect it to work in real life. High spinning leaping kicks have a place, but not usually with a opponent on equal footing. (Think of Indiana jones facing the impressive swordsman, watches the show, then shoots him.)

 

[Anders Ämting]

There is alot of difference between Europe sword fighting and Oriental. Basically the weapons are different and the armor of the target is different.

In some ways, true. In other ways, they can be surprisingly similar, because there are only so many ways to swing a sword effectively.

For example, people who practice Japanese tend to find that the guard positions of the European longsword are very similar to their own kamae, and jianshu fencers may find a lot of parellels between Chinese and European fencing, etc.

 

[Zero Angel]

Recently, I read a post by zero angel on another thread , where it was said



That made me sit up and take notice, because I always thought that sword fighting was not much different from fighting with a stick .

So , my question is :- can any one please direct me to a place (a book, an website, anything) , where I can learn enough about sword fighting to write about it in my novel without sounding stupid? I already tried looking around in my locality , but did not manage to find any such thing as a fencing master.

Wow. I inspired a thread and I didn't even know it existed.

There's already been a lot of good information on here. I thought one of the best was whoever said that each style has its own moves and styles.

I train with bladed weapons and do re-enactment with rattan mock-ups of medieval weapons in the SCA, so I haven't done anything with the fencing aspect of it (beyond research and a couple of fencing classes in college). I've been trained in budo (tonfa, bo, sai, judo, karate etc) and a couple of other people in our SCA group have martial arts training as well, including one black belt kendo fighter.

I'm not sure I agree that there is some "trick" to wielding a sword that separates it from using a stick in a similar way. I am very well versed in several martial arts, one of which is Arnis (a weapon style using rattan canes). Furthermore I fence, and do stage combat choreography, along with a few other odds and ends. Suffice to say, I'm not an expert on swordfighting, but I think I have a pretty good grasp on the basics.

A stick and a properly-weighted, double-edged sword (for many sword types , "properly-weighted" means to place the center of balance as close to the hand as possible) differ in one primary way: striking surface. The stick can hit along any part of itself with similar results, whereas a sword obviously needs to use one of the bladed edges. However, the optimal striking surfaces are the same. A sword is bladed to the fore and back, rather than to each side, because that is where the muscles in the human arm can apply the most force. Thus, you want to use a stick in the same way, because you can hit the hardest.

Obviously much of the minutia changes - favored strikes and targets, how you defend, etc - but for the basic motions, you swing a sword (again, of the double-edged, middle-ages sort) and a stick in much the same way.

...that's not exactly what I was referring to, although there has already been the cutting comeback. If you are trained in the use of swinging a stick that's great and might translate well to swordfighting (although I'm sure you'll agree not 100%). The thing is though, that most people that pick up a stick to swing aren't trained in swinging that stick. A lot of people are under the assumption that swordfighting is like what we do when we are kids and it is not at all.

Before you make any other assumptions, an important caveat: Different styles of swordfighting will have different ideas of how to do things. Even seasoned martial artists tend to assume that what they have been taught in their specific style is the correct way while all others are mistaken, but the truth is that there is as many ways to use a sword as there are types of swords. This is good to keep in mind.

Great point.

You mention bladed edges. That actually brings us to an aspect of swordfighting that's most people tend to overlook: The simple fact that cutting properly with a sword is actually really tricky. Very few manage it on their first try. It's not just a matter of how hard you hit or how much you have trained the motion - just getting the edge a little bit out of alignment will cause the attack to fail and you will only cause a small nick, the rest being blunt force. Among us recreational water-bottle cutters, it's called "batting", because you end up sending your bottle flying as if hit by a bat.

Even if you are very skilled at a certain style, like kenjutsu or one of the Chinese schools, I bet you could completely fail to execute a sword swing that would actually cause serious damage unless you've specifically trained to aquire real cutting skills. And the only way you are going to aquire those skills is to actually cut stuff over and over until you can do it intuitively.

Even better points. I always like to think of it as cutting into the flesh instead of breaking bones. And different styles also use different attacks also. For instance, in kendo, slashing attacks are all you need. I imagine rapier fighters are more about the thrust although cutting happens as well, yes?

You'll want to narrow down what you're trying to write. I personally am a member of the SCA, where I fence and am learning cut and thrust. The types of swords dictate the style, and so that'll be where you want to start. The game changes when you have a rapier and your opponent has a two-hander. In that instance, I can't see the heavier sword winning, the fencer will pick his opponent apart.

Yeah? ...how about if the heavy sword fighter hits the fencer first? Or if the heavier sword fighter has, I dunno', armor appropriate to the weapon style. By the time of rapier fighting, a gun would kill you, so they stopped wearing heavy armor and the weapons became lighter because you didn't need the heavy sword. If a fighter was wearing full plate, I am not sure I can see the rapier fighter being able to damage the fighter at all.

Also, be wary of things like shattering blades, long, drawn out combats, etc. Most sword fights were in reality, ended rather quickly, and while writing, if authenticity is your goal, you might want to mention the weapons being used so the people here can help a bit more.

I'm OK with this if you change the word "sword" to "rapier". Do sword fights end quickly? Yes. Do sword fights end not so quickly? Yes. And as far as shattering blades, again, it depends on the time frame, but a common rapier side arm is a "sword-breaker" isn't it?

I really find rapier fighting interesting, but I do disagree that a rapier fighter would tear apart a two-handed sword fighter (or even vice verse depending on the situation--there's no one style that I am going to agree is the best or even entirely superior to one other). It all depends on the situation of the story you are trying to tell.

((wince)) When I said that about "a legit teacher will make you train a lot before giving you a sword" I didn't mean that that was a BAD thing. If you really want to know what you're doing, and be good at it, working stances, theory and other basics for a long time first is the way to go. YMMV.

There are a crap ton of bad MA schools and bad MA teachers out there, and you have to be careful. Not saying that a teacher who hands a sword to a rank virgin is necessarily a bad teacher, but I would find that a bit worrisome.

Sink or swim. To each their own. The higher the stakes, the more you improve, but also the risk increases as well.

 

[Anders Ämting]

I train with bladed weapons and do re-enactment with rattan mock-ups of medieval weapons in the SCA, so I haven't done anything with the fencing aspect of it (beyond research and a couple of fencing classes in college). I've been trained in budo (tonfa, bo, sai, judo, karate etc) and a couple of other people in our SCA group have martial arts training as well, including one black belt kendo fighter.

I have fairly little formal training - a bit of kendo, a bit of sports fencing and a few basic instructions with the longsword. For the most part, I'm self-taught via online videos.

Currently trying to learn how to use a saber by watching Cold Steel's Fighting with the Saber and Cutlass over and over.

...that's not exactly what I was referring to, although there has already been the cutting comeback. If you are trained in the use of swinging a stick that's great and might translate well to swordfighting (although I'm sure you'll agree not 100%). The thing is though, that most people that pick up a stick to swing aren't trained in swinging that stick. A lot of people are under the assumption that swordfighting is like what we do when we are kids and it is not at all.

Yeah, I think the basic gist is: At the very least, you need someone who can actually teach you how to fight. It's not really something you can work out on your own by trial and error. At least, you don't want to, seeing as you'll be banking your life on it.

I think it's in Eragon - the movie, anyway, don't know about the book - where Eragon and his buddy spent their free time randomly beating each other with sticks, which somehow meant he knew how to fight with an actual sword. o__O

I always like to think of it as cutting into the flesh instead of breaking bones. And different styles also use different attacks also. For instance, in kendo, slashing attacks are all you need. I imagine rapier fighters are more about the thrust although cutting happens as well, yes?

Not sure "slashing" is the right word - the katana is all about the cut. For all the hype surrounding it, the Japanese sword really is a devastatingly efficient cutting weapon that can indeed dismember your opponent if used correctly.

You do sometimes cut in rapier fencing, but it's mostly a way to distract or inconvenience your opponent. The average rapier blade simply didn't have the mass to cause serious cutting damage.

Yeah? ...how about if the heavy sword fighter hits the fencer first? Or if the heavier sword fighter has, I dunno', armor appropriate to the weapon style. By the time of rapier fighting, a gun would kill you, so they stopped wearing heavy armor and the weapons became lighter because you didn't need the heavy sword. If a fighter was wearing full plate, I am not sure I can see the rapier fighter being able to damage the fighter at all.

First of all, rapiers aren't actually especially light swords - all complex hilted swords tend to be somewhat weighty. At best the rapier would be about as heavy as your average medieval single-handed sword, mostly between 2 and 3 pounds. The differance is how the weight is distributed. Rapiers have the weight concentrated in the hilt to provide point control.

In fact, a common complaint among rapier fencers today is that they can't simply use sports epees, because the epee is too light and would not translate techniques correctly.

Second, two-handed swords weren't really that heavy either, unless we are talking about true Renaissance zweihanders. (And even they can be deceptively fast, I've been told.)

Relevant video:

I'm OK with this if you change the word "sword" to "rapier". Do sword fights end quickly? Yes. Do sword fights end not so quickly? Yes. And as far as shattering blades, again, it depends on the time frame, but a common rapier side arm is a "sword-breaker" isn't it?

As far as I understand, the swordbreaker was not really common - more of an occasional curiosity. And even then, I think they were more specialized parrying daggers rather than something meant to literally break swords.

Did rapiers sometimes break? Probably. But all swords can break, and they wouldn't have seen such widespread use if they were unreliable.

I really find rapier fighting interesting, but I do disagree that a rapier fighter would tear apart a two-handed sword fighter (or even vice verse depending on the situation--there's no one style that I am going to agree is the best or even entirely superior to one other). It all depends on the situation of the story you are trying to tell.

I'm personally a bit careful about saing things like "no one style is better than the other" or "it's the swordsman that matters, not the sword." I do think that with variation comes advantages and disadvantages, so there should logically exist weapons and styles that have more advantages then disadvantages over certain other weapons and styles. Basically, I don't like generalizations.

But you are basically right: Most swords were made to be efficient killing tools, and each was refined to perfection within its own context. That's the most important thing to keep in mind, not which sword is the "best."

 

[grimreaper]

Also there's a great free PDF fight manual here http://www.thearma.org/Fight-Earnestly.htm which is a real translated fight manual circa 1459 which shows many medieval techniques.

That pdf is enlightening.
But now I have a new question.
How far can these techniques , which are for the European longswords, be successfully translated to a curved blade like the talwar or vice-versa?
Specifically , what would happen if a character trained to fight with a talwar suddenly finds himself saddled with a longsword
and faced with an enemy?

 

[grimreaper]

Also there is something else I would love to understand.

The grip of the talwar is cramped and the prominent disc of the pommel presses into the wrist if attempts are made to use it to cut like a conventional sabre. These features of the talwar hilt result in the hand having a very secure and rather inflexible hold on the weapon, enforcing the use of variations on the very effective "draw cut".

This is from Wikipedia. And it all goes a mile above my head.
If anyone would be so kind to take the trouble and explain it in layman's language.........:Confused: