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Place names in fantasy worlds?

Paladin

Dreamer
Hello everyone, I would like to get some feedback about something I've been unsure about for quite a while now.

I'm sure any of you who've developed your own worlds know that naming places can be challenging. My own fantasy world is meant to be more realistic and closer to realistic scale than most fantasy worlds are... which means I have to come up with literally hundreds of place names.

So, I actually have two questions I guess, though they're closely related.

1. What is your opinion on reusing/recycling some obscure place names from other works of fantasy, to use for your own towns and villages? Personally, I wouldn't really see this as copyright infringement since you're not actually taking anyone's ideas, but simply a word they may or may not have made up themselves. I think fair use would apply here. I'm no lawyer but I would doubt that most words themselves can be copyrighted or trademarked anyway. I imagine though, the more popular or well known the made up word/name is, the more controversial this sort of practice may become then...

For example, if I were to use the name "Baramus" for a town in a fantasy story I wanted to publish and sell, does anyone think I would encounter problems with this? By the way, "Baramus" is the name of a town in a certain RPG... or the English translation of its name at least.


2. My second question is a bit more specific. To make a long story short, one of the countries in my fantasy world is named "Tyria". I named it this several years ago, I actually made up the name from the name of a D&D deity. I also since discovered that "Tyria" is the name of a river and a village in Greece, so I would think that would make it public domain.

My problem is, I discovered a few months ago that a popular online game franchise named Guild Wars uses this name as the name of their world, basically. So, I'm not really sure what I should do. I've tried to come up with different names for this kingdom I named Tyria years ago but its proven to be very difficult and after brainstorming for some months over it, I've arrived at the conclusion that I really don't want to change the name.

My biggest concern is if the new Guild Wars 2 online game becomes wildly successful, like World of Warcraft, I may be forced to change the name, even if its perfectly legal to use it, simply because it will become so well known and type casted in pop culture as belonging to the Guild Wars franchise, no one would be able to take my stories seriously if that name appeared in them.

Feedback, suggestions and advice for both of these questions would be very much appreciated.

Thank you for your time! :)

~Paladin~
 

shangrila

Inkling
1. I wouldn't re-use anything created by another person. Not willingly, anyway. Personally, I know that plenty of my "throwaway" names have entire histories of their own so for someone to steal it just because they're feeling lazy...yeah, that wouldn't sit well with me.

2. BUT, if I'd come up with a name on my own and then, with further research, I'd found it was used somewhere else, I wouldn't be as worried about it. I'd have a legitimate reason for using it.
 

Ghost

Inkling
I don't think the Tyria thing is a big deal. It's not terribly unusual, so I'm not surprised it's been used before or that it's a real name. I'd consider changing a name if my usage is too similar to a fictional one and the word is distinctive. I wouldn't create ridiculous names just to avoid similarities. And it doesn't matter if it's word in the real world. Who knows how many words and names there are in the world. You can't avoid them all. (It might bother me if my word was offensive in a major language.)

The idea of setting out to "recycle" fictional names doesn't appeal to me. I don't want a rehash of other fictional settings. I know some authors do similar things as a tribute. As a reader I rarely notice it, but when I do, I'm never sure if it was intentional and what purpose that serves the story. It also makes the world feel a little less real. When it's repurposed it's less in-your-face, but using it the same way in your work (like calling a town Baramus when it's already a town in the game) seems too direct.

Something that occured to me: if you keep Tyria and the "reused" names, people won't be able to tell the difference. Those who recognize all of the names might think you took Tyria as well. If you come up with hundreds of names, some of those are bound to be real words or names. Using names from other works blurs the line between what is yours and what was lifted. It's harder to defend Tyria when you did Baramus on purpose.

Accidentally making similar words is fine, but I don't see why you'd seek them out. I doubt most readers would care. I'm not sure whether there are legal implications or not. I mean, I wouldn't call a school Hogwarts. ;)
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
1. I wouldn't worry too much about this.

2. This probably isn't going to be an issue in a legal sense, unless ArenaNet (owner of the Guild Wars 2 franchise) were to decide to pursue some kind of trademark action. Assuming they consider Tyria a trademark and assuming you were successful enough to get on their radar. With a trademark action it wouldn't matter that you thought of it independently. The bigger problem, though, will be reader perception. As soon as I saw "Tyria" I thought immediately of Guild Wars. A certain number of other fantasy readers will as well, and as Ghost noted above, they're not going to know whether you thought it up yourself or stole the name from Guild Wars. It may be worth changing it at this point just to avoid that perception.
 

Jess A

Archmage
Anybody could have independently come up with 'Tyria'. You've come to associate it with your place. You should keep it. I've never heard of Guild Wars. Not every reader is going to associate it with it.

I've had the same problem a few times, but I don't much care. I've also ripped names off small obscure towns in the real world. There may or may not be historical reasons for my choice.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Anybody could have independently come up with 'Tyria'. You've come to associate it with your place. You should keep it. I've never heard of Guild Wars. Not every reader is going to associate it with it.

I've had the same problem a few times, but I don't much care. I've also ripped names off small obscure towns in the real world. There may or may not be historical reasons for my choice.

I disagree. It always pays to know your target audience. You may not have heard of Guild Wars, but the original sold over six million copies. Guild Wars 2 just came out and sold two million copies in two weeks and they had to halt sales because it was selling so fast. It is probably well over the two million figure now. I know it was at the top of the charts all over Europe and probably North America. I mention all this only to illustrate that a large number of people know of it. There is also talk of them doing fiction. The unfortunate reality is that a lot of people who probably read fantasy may think the name came from Guild Wars. It doesn't make sense to ignore that reality, or the reality that the game maker may consider the name a trademark.
 

SeverinR

Vala
Wouldn't Tyria be, of or about Tyra or Tyre? (Or is it Tyra/Tyre like?)
Angelia/angelica is angel like.

Tyria-http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Tyria
it is a persons name, so any town can be named after someone, so I think it would be hard to limit a persons name.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
it is a persons name, so any town can be named after someone, so I think it would be hard to limit a persons name.

Not at all. A person's name can certainly be a trademark.

But these things only become problems if the user is successful. If not many people read the book, the chances of readers put off by the association to Guild Wars is minimal, and the chance of any kind of trademark claim virtually non-existent. If the book is successful, then the problems increase proportionally.
 

Mindfire

Istar
How does this trademark thing work exactly? It baffles me that a name like Tyria or Thor can be trademarked. Suppose someone writes a book about Norse myth and it becomes popular. Is Marvel going to sue?
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Of course it can be trademarked. Any phrase, word, or distinctive feature that is not 'generic' for the class of goods or services can be trademark. Trademarks are supposed to serve a consumer protection function, in part. Ford is a name. If I put Ford on a car then people who have bought cars from Ford may think that my car is made by that same manufacturer. They may be deceived by my car. The name "Ford," then, serves for the consumer as an indication of the origin of the vehicle, and an indicator of whatever quality they associate with the name, good or bad.
 
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Shockley

Maester
To your first question: Being a language guy, who puts a lot of time into every term that appears in my work, I'd move heaven and hell to take out someone who stole a place name from one of my works. If there is a single term in any of my stories, I put at least an hour of thought into it, not even counting the various revisions that came after the initial inception. Most of the time, I put more thought into the name of a place than I do the people who live there.

There are exceptions, of course. A lot of fantasy writers use generic names - Dunsany has most of his stories occur in 'Elfland,' for instance - and the generic names are on the table. But to actually take a name from someone else's work? That's not only lazy world building, it's bad world building.

2. Your name might have developed originally from Guild Wars, but it's still derivative of someone else's work. It's better for you if you change it, if only slightly.
 
This may not help you, but I suggest using it. The products name is AutoREALM it's a free map making software. It helped me create my first Fantasy world and it might help you.

On that note, if you need help with it, there's a forum somewhere around here.
 

mbartelsm

Troubadour
How does this trademark thing work exactly? It baffles me that a name like Tyria or Thor can be trademarked. Suppose someone writes a book about Norse myth and it becomes popular. Is Marvel going to sue?
There is a difference between copyright and trademark

Trademark: anything can be trademarked, even a circle or a Norse God
Copyright: only thing that inclued authentic intellectual authorship can be copyrighted, that means that neither a circle nor a Norse God can be copyrighted, the fact that they may be trademarks can't stop you from using them, however it does prevent you from selling thing UNDER those names or images.

For example, let's say Tyria is a trademark, you CANNOT sell a book called Tyria, but your book can contain the word Tyria as many times as you please
 
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Jess A

Archmage
I disagree. It always pays to know your target audience. You may not have heard of Guild Wars, but the original sold over six million copies. Guild Wars 2 just came out and sold two million copies in two weeks and they had to halt sales because it was selling so fast. It is probably well over the two million figure now. I know it was at the top of the charts all over Europe and probably North America. I mention all this only to illustrate that a large number of people know of it. There is also talk of them doing fiction. The unfortunate reality is that a lot of people who probably read fantasy may think the name came from Guild Wars. It doesn't make sense to ignore that reality, or the reality that the game maker may consider the name a trademark.

Hmm...I suppose that is quite correct; I underestimated Guild Wars' popularity. And if the name does become well-known, it might be seen as a pop culture reference and people would question whether there was some hidden meaning to the name. I suppose it might also piss some people off (especially with the Ford example).

In light of that, you can always use Google to check names, and you can get away with a slight variation. But it is undeniably irritating when you have put work and thought into a name, and somebody else has already come up with it - and then they accuse you of theft or of making their product look bad.

Additionally, if you come up with a unique name and you research and find it has never been used, people may begin to associate that name with you and your book. That is a very good thing.
 
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SeverinR

Vala
I would let the publishing company worry about trademark. Since any and everything can be trademarked, it would seem an impossible feat to check every name you create.

I also think if the town is clearly your creation, with no connection to the town in Guild wars, no one would connect the two as anything but a chance common name. But if the game decides to push the "infringement" just create a new name.

I am not a lawyer, nor stayed at a holiday inn express last night, but the more common the name in many locations the more likely the infringement was not intentional. Also if you use a name of an existing town or several towns I would think it less likely to be TM.

I use some earth town names for human towns in my world. None of the major cities in history, just smaller towns with interesting names.

I won't use Effingham (Illinois) to many Effing jokes. :)
 

ThinkerX

Myth Weaver
What I used to do - and will probably start having to do again as I need to come up with town and village names on the fly - is make parallel numbered lists. Say you need a coastal village. So

1. Storm
2. Blue
3. Calm
4. Sand
5. Rock
6. White

List two

1. Cove
2. Harbor
3. Bay
4. Point
5. Isle
6. Lagoon

Then literally role the dice. These words are generic enough to where copyright infringement is unlikely. And while they may also be found in other publications, odds are they are not 'major'.

I used to use a version of this scheme for peoples names as well, sometimes broken into syllables for non humans.
 

Jess A

Archmage
A good point, Thinker X.

People often create simple names for places, named after a person, nature, weather, type of tree or animal found in the area, natural feature, proximity to the sea or mountains, or a landmark (etc). Look anywhere in the world. A lot of my book names are made the same way.
 

Sheriff Woody

Troubadour
If I come up with a name that I find has been used before in another work, I try to change it around a bit. Tyria can easily become Tirya and retain the same general pronunciation. Or just throw in a different consonant to make Lyria, Tyriam, etc.

Unless the name has a special place in your heart, play around and have fun with it.
 
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