Divine Intervention vs. Deus Ex Machina

[Mindfire]

To clarify the intent of this thread: assume that the writing is good, i.e. there is competent foreshadowing and things don't just drop out of the sky. Does the concept still work, or does it bother you despite how well it is written.

 

[Penpilot]

To clarify the intent of this thread: assume that the writing is good, i.e. there is competent foreshadowing and things don't just drop out of the sky. Does the concept still work, or does it bother you despite how well it is written.

It wouldn't bother me. Again, as long as it's set up right and I don't have one of those moments where I go WTF? Where the hell did that come from? Then it's all fine.

 

[shangrila]

For me, personally, even if it's foreshadowed I'd find it cheap. There would have to be something bad attached to it not to, for me anyway.

 

[WyrdMystic]

If the writing is good anything can work.

 

[jrcarney52]

I think having "the gods" or a great and powerful being intervening is just fine. I think it can be a powerful theme for a story. I've always smiled at how we tend to emphasize the "good side" of deus ex machina, the gods coming down to fortuitously "save" the protagonist. But what about the "bad side" of this kind of thing? What about the god that comes to and wipes out entire kingdoms, nations, empires, on a whim? And for petty reasons? When I think deus ex machina I often think of "At the Mountains of Madness" -- the main characters find out the "gods" are powerful aliens, and that life on earth was created on a whim to supply these gods with cheap labor, and cheap food. Or, better, in other Lovecraft stories, cultists worship the "Great Old Ones" not knowing these entities care little about them and in fact think of them the save way we think of, say, ants... they're only relationship to their followers is the relationship of a demented little boy to some an ant he's torturing for perverse fun. I always think of that quote from Lear, "As flies to wanton boys, are we to the gods; they kill us for their sport." From the pagan perspective, not only were the gods considered as regularly intervening in human affairs, they were seen as aggressive bastards smiting us mortals with diseases for petty offenses, killing us, raping us, carrying us away, etc.. I think deus ex machina can be really intriguing, whether or not the gods help your characters or harm them; however, I think divine intervention has to throw into focus the creepiest elements about divine entities: *they have all the power! we're helpless compared to them!* The problem with literalizing divine intervention in fantasy is very often the line between "mortals" and "immortals" gets blurred. My hunch is that fantasy writers struggle to frame their protags as anything less than "demi-gods." I can think of any number of fantasy writers whose characters are the modern literary equivalent of Hercules, Achilles, Odysseus, Beowulf, etc.. These "part-god" figures interact with gods on a different level than, say, an *actual mortal* interacting with a god. Thanks for the fun thread!

 

[wordwalker]

The key may be building expectations, about what gods won't or can't do.

Phrases we've seen a lot here are "why the god didn't step in before" and beyond that "intervening at random." I think it's pulling off that sense of when they hold back or when they're blocked (by other gods, most likely) that saves a story from these, and lets it be a story we can relate to. That applies whether the hero's winning their help, working with/against a limited amount of divine force, or even a Clash of Miracles if we can still get a sense of why each god acts and why they may not win.

As long as it doesn't just open the door to "gods will do anything" and then leave that door open.

 

[Penpilot]

I've always smiled at how we tend to emphasize the "good side" of deus ex machina, the gods coming down to fortuitously "save" the protagonist. But what about the "bad side" of this kind of thing? What about the god that comes to and wipes out entire kingdoms, nations, empires, on a whim?

That isn't deus ex machina when they come down to wipe out kingdoms etc. To my understanding this is the defintion of it. Deus ex machina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Alex Beecroft]

I'm all for it if the god in question has been established as an active character in the plot beforehand. It's like anyone else suddenly doing something - you have to establish who they are and how they got to that point & decided to act like that beforehand, or it comes out as unacceptably random. But if you know your god has a tendency to intervene in specified ways, then it's in character for him, and OK.

 

[Griffin]

Everyone can agree that deus ex machina is cheap. No doubt about that.

Divine Intervention can threaten to turn into deus ex machina if it is presented wrong. I think your idea with the black owl has great potential. Since you'll be mentioning it before that scene and as long as that is not the final scene, it can work well. I would leave the mystery of whether or not the owl was real for the readers. Readers love to speculate.

You also mentioned about the grand finale with the demonic army and the Yumennos. Foreshadow like you have never foreshadowed before. This scene sounds almost like a deus ex machina in the making. If done right, it will make sense to the reader. Since this will be at the end, careful planning must be involved. Perhaps a representative of the Yumennos comes to the MC and brokers a contract/deal? Maybe a religious figure begs for divine assistance? There are numerous ways to present this. But a sudden appearance of the Yumennos might seem cheap. Especially since they seem to be the only ones who can face the demonic army.

Either way, good luck to you.

 

[WyrdMystic]

That isn't deus ex machina when they come down to wipe out kingdoms etc. To my understanding this is the defintion of it. Deus ex machina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From that definition - foreshadowing means it is not Deus Ex Machina either. The key for me is in the surprise(!). If its foreshadowed - no surprise - no latin anti-climax.

Yet - as in the article - couple of massively successful uses of Deus Ex Machina – War of the Worlds (the most believable ending possible for that story) and Monty Python’s Life of Brian (because explanation was not required).

Divine Intervention on the other hand - that is something different, something I tend to like. Mainly because I'm a fan of the magical side of fantasy/myth.

 

[jrcarney52]

That isn't deus ex machina when they come down to wipe out kingdoms etc. To my understanding this is the defintion of it. Deus ex machina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yeah it is! By this definition the god solves an unsolvable problem, though sometimes in ways that affirm human worth and in other ways that challenge it. For example: two countries are at war with each other, and then a god destroys them both, resolving their conflict. On a larger note, we shouldn't get caught the historical specificity of "deus ex machina". If you're a splitting hairs sort of person, then the concept really only applies to a certain type of historically unique Ancient Greek drama, a situation when an actor is literally dropped onto the stage through a mechanical contraption.

 

[WyrdMystic]

Yeah it is! By this definition the god solves an unsolvable problem, though sometimes in ways that affirm human worth and in other ways that challenge it. For example: two countries are at war with each other, and then a god destroys them both, resolving their conflict. On a larger note, we shouldn't get caught the historical specificity of "deus ex machina". If you're a splitting hairs sort of person, then the concept really only applies to a certain type of historically unique Ancient Greek drama, a situation when an actor is literally dropped onto the stage through a mechanical contraption.

Literally, the device used to suspend actors playing Gods above the stage. In literature, a surprise that's only purpose is to move the plot along. One phrase - two meanings.

I think thats the difference between divine intervention and Deus Ex Machina - the lead up. The destruction of Sodom was divine intervention, but not Deus Ex Machina (they were warned).

Some say its cheap. I say the opposite as it takes a lot of hard work to pull off properly. When it is - it can be awesome.

 

[jrcarney52]

I think thats the difference between divine intervention and Deus Ex Machina - the lead up. The destruction of Sodom was divine intervention, but not Deus Ex Machina (they were warned).

Some say its cheap. I say the opposite as it takes a lot of hard work to pull off properly. When it is - it can be awesome.

Although I think the way you put things here clears things up, I still don't think the distinction between "divine intervention" and "deus ex machina" is worth the effort. Why? For me the important narrative element that these concepts (as defined above) throw into focus is this: a dramatically charged point of contact between the divine world and the mortal world.

Sodom might have been warned, but I'm sure there can be a really cool story told from the perspective of an ignorant visitor to a doomed city--a merchant, perhaps--who just happens to show up on the day of the rain of fire. He has no idea that this city has angered its god. He's just bringing in a cart of far-flung exotic wares to peddle when the sky starts to get dark. In both instances--surprise or lack of surprise--the key source of drama is the confrontation between the divine and the mortal.

 

[Penpilot]

Sodom might have been warned, but I'm sure there can be a really cool story told from the perspective of an ignorant visitor to a doomed city--a merchant, perhaps--who just happens to show up on the day of the rain of fire. He has no idea that this city has angered its god. He's just bringing in a cart of far-flung exotic wares to peddle when the sky starts to get dark. In both instances--surprise or lack of surprise--the key source of drama is the confrontation between the divine and the mortal.

But then the story becomes the story of how some person walked into the middle of said point of contact between the divine and mortal world, and how they persevere and get through the troubles caused by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The drama is not in the confrontation of the divine and mortal, it's in this mortal walking into divine troubles.

So unless this person has all their problems solved with no foreshadowing, no explanation, and all that sort of jazz, in my humble opinion, it's not Deus Ex Machina.

Deus Ex Machina doesn't really have anything to do with the divine at all. Here's an example of it with absolutely nothing divine involved.

Let say there's a story of a guy who gets into financial trouble and at the end is about to loose everything if they don't come up with 1million dollars by tomorrow. But then, from out of the blue a long lost uncle, never mentioned before in the story, dies and leaves him 100 million dollars. Problem solved. This is Deux Ex Machina at its heart.

 

[WyrdMystic]

Let say there's a story of a guy who gets into financial trouble and at the end is about to loose everything if they don't come up with 1million dollars by tomorrow. But then, from out of the blue a long lost uncle, never mentioned before in the story, dies and leaves him 100 million dollars. Problem solved. This is Deux Ex Machina at its heart.

Yeah - it can be any object, event or person. Bacteria in War of the Worlds. A space ship in Life of Brian etc etc

 

[jrcarney52]

Let say there's a story of a guy who gets into financial trouble and at the end is about to loose everything if they don't come up with 1million dollars by tomorrow. But then, from out of the blue a long lost uncle, never mentioned before in the story, dies and leaves him 100 million dollars. Problem solved. This is Deux Ex Machina at its heart.

Oh, o.k.! This makes sense to me. You're talking about "deus ex machina" as a narrative device and not a theme. I'm zeroing in on the "idea" of the divine interacting with the mortal. Hmm...