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Story > Writing Skills?

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
So to sum up: the writing technique is important to you, but doesn't seem to be important for success and thus probably not important for the majority of people that will be reading your book?

Huh? I didn't get that at all from the piece you quoted. I read:

If the story is good and the writing bad, end result = fail.
If the story is bad and the writing good, end result = fail.

I agree with this sentiment.

EDIT: though I still contend that the discussion is somewhat pointless given the lack of definition of the terms "story" and "writing."
 

Griffin

Minstrel
So to sum up: the writing technique is important to you, but doesn't seem to be important for success and thus probably not important for the majority of people that will be reading your book?

I think we get too much into this art-house critique bullcrap. Not to pick on artists, but I originally went to school for art. Before all of my artist friends went to school for art, they were fine. Afterwards, (actually after just a semester or two usually) they just seemed full of crap. That's how it seems to the layman, and that's how it seemed to me, even though I had the same technical training as they did.

Could I see the points they were making? Yes. Did it detract from my enjoyment? Only if it lacked other appeal.

To be fair, art critique is crap. A five year old's finger-painting can be taken as a masterpiece (and has in the past.)

I am not saying I support the notion that writing skills are no longer important. I simply pointed out the popular works of today lack said writing skills. For me, I do not write so I can become a household name or make lots of money. I do it because I love telling stories and I wish to share them. For all those readers who prefer reading horribly written books, I do not care for them. I am not writing for them. I even doubt that they would even pick up my works. And that's okay with me.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I simply pointed out the popular works of today lack said writing skills.

I don't think this is accurate. To me, this reflects what Zero Angel is talking about, and in the end it is a fairly self-serving, as well as inaccurate, analysis.
 

Griffin

Minstrel
I don't think this is accurate. To me, this reflects what Zero Angel is talking about, and in the end it is a fairly self-serving, as well as inaccurate, analysis.

Ah. I apologize if I came across in that manner. Allow me to rephrase, a lot of recent works do not reflect the same writing skills as past works that we consider to be masterpieces. I try to read everything, new and old. I have read both Twilight and Fifty Shades of Gray. Perhaps I am merely flabbergasted that these works are popular despite the over simplistic writing style. However, when I see these works compared to the works of Harry Potter and Ann Rice's books, I cringe.
 
To be fair, art critique is crap. A five year old's finger-painting can be taken as a masterpiece (and has in the past.)

I am not saying I support the notion that writing skills are no longer important. I simply pointed out the popular works of today lack said writing skills. For me, I do not write so I can become a household name or make lots of money. I do it because I love telling stories and I wish to share them. For all those readers who prefer reading horribly written books, I do not care for them. I am not writing for them. I even doubt that they would even pick up my works. And that's okay with me.

Right so, if that's what you want to do, then that's great. I don't want to discourage you from doing that at all and if you are able to do that, then that is spectacular. If you are not able to do that (because of things like food or living arrangements) and still go after that, then that is noble and artful.

I would like to be able to make a living writing, and I am working on my language skills along the way; I also do not see Twilight or Fifty Shades of Grey as something to emulate definitely, but they are successful by the mainstream. So going back to the original post's question: this tells us that your specific viewpoints are that language skills are more important, but to anyone that wants to be successful, story skills are more important.

Ah. I apologize if I came across in that manner. Allow me to rephrase, a lot of recent works do not reflect the same writing skills as past works that we consider to be masterpieces. I try to read everything, new and old. I have read both Twilight and Fifty Shades of Gray. Perhaps I am merely flabbergasted that these works are popular despite the over simplistic writing style. However, when I see these works compared to the works of Harry Potter and Ann Rice's books, I cringe.
See, I thought Harry Potter's stories were borderline insufferable. I still enjoyed them because of the characters I think (although I found them tiresome sometimes) and the world itself. Her writing ability is OK, but there was far too much foreshadow and a cheesy film quality in the way she avoided Deus ex Machina. It left a bad taste in my mouth.

I've read two Anne Rice novels (Interview with a Vampire and The Vampire Lestat) and I would say her writing technique is good, but I don't care for the characters overly much and the world felt slightly arbitrary. Still, I've had Queen of the Damned for as long as I had the first two novels; it took me about 6 months to build up the energy to move onto the second book from the first, and it's been another year since I finished the second and I have yet to build up to wanting to finish the third (besides the completionist part of my personality).
 
I think there's a distinction to be made between works that do one thing really, really well, thus appealing to the niche of people who like that one thing, and works that do a lot of things decently, appealing to a broad audience but not necessarily enthralling them. (For instance, The Hunger Games combines intriguing but occasionally half-baked dystopian worldbuilding, a well-executed but generic love triangle, and a surprisingly powerful multi-layered metaphor about the ways in which people allow themselves to be controlled.) Most of the would-be authors I've encountered have wanted to focus on one passion, and that arguably creates a better book, but you have to be aware that not everyone will share your passion enough to want to pay for an entire book about it.
 
I think sometimes because we are writers that we view books differently than "regular readers" the same way a musician hears a song differently than the average joe, so to speak. In no way am I saying or suggesting that someone should just focus all on their story development and not really worry too much about their actual writing skills. You both of these aspects to be a "good author."

There was one point when I was reading what is now my favorite fantasy novel where at the end of the book a character reveals that everything that had happened in the story was all part of her scheme. But it was to the point of where literally every single thing that happened down to the thoughts of the characters was part of her plan. Granted she is a powerful sorcerer but I was really unhappy. It just made the story lose all credibility. I don't know how someone could plan a scheme that takes months and your taking into account thousands and thousands of variables down to the level of thought and opinion. But besides that, I still enjoy the book. I just tend to overlook that XD

There are many times I read something that I think is worded funny or I maybe thought wasn't well constructed or thought through and yes I think we all have those moments where we exclaim, "Ah-Ha!" when we find a typo, but aside from these things, it is still the same story basically. And I really doubt a novel will get published where it is so poorly written that a large majority of people would immediately turn it down.
 
There was one point when I was reading what is now my favorite fantasy novel where at the end of the book a character reveals that everything that had happened in the story was all part of her scheme. But it was to the point of where literally every single thing that happened down to the thoughts of the characters was part of her plan. Granted she is a powerful sorcerer but I was really unhappy. It just made the story lose all credibility. I don't know how someone could plan a scheme that takes months and your taking into account thousands and thousands of variables down to the level of thought and opinion. But besides that, I still enjoy the book. I just tend to overlook that XD

From a mathematical perspective, this is virtually impossible unless you have control over most of the variables. If the sorceror was supremely powerful, then it is feasible. Otherwise, planning alone is not enough unless you're God.
 
From a mathematical perspective, this is virtually impossible unless you have control over most of the variables. If the sorceror was supremely powerful, then it is feasible. Otherwise, planning alone is not enough unless you're God.

No she was not godlike. That's what made me call BS. She basically claimed that everything that transpired within (aprox) half a year was "done by my machinations." The book does explain foresight and divination as a means to foresee the future, but only being able to see possibilities, not what is actually going to happen. But still, it was very unbelievable.
 

Kit

Maester
Still, I've had Queen of the Damned for as long as I had the first two novels; it took me about 6 months to build up the energy to move onto the second book from the first, and it's been another year since I finished the second and I have yet to build up to wanting to finish the third (besides the completionist part of my personality).


I just finished that book. It seems like there was a slightly interesting story buried in there somewhere, but it was astonishing how long-winded it was. I have to grade it rather low.
 

amy12

New Member
yeah, getting a strong storyline on paper is tough. Sometimes, you have ideas but making a good story out of them gets challenging. You have to plans and write many drafts to perfect the story. It takes time, patience and a whole lot of imagination. If you're havign trouble putting together a griiping plot then a good idea would be to get help. Read blogs and boosk that teach about writing. Spend some time practising everyday. These are just a few tips, but there is loads of stuff that you can do to become a better writer.
 
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