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Book and Chapter Length Help?

Twook00

Sage
Is it really a question about word count, or is it pacing? Seems like a chapter is going to have a beginning, middle, and end (which you probably have), so how long those chapters should be depends on how much setup, action, dialogue, setting, introspection, character devlopment, and world building is needed to make it flow.

I know that many authors are just naturally tight writers, so they have to add meat to their chapters as part of the revision process. Maybe you fall into that category?
 

Mindfire

Istar
I found this interesting.

250 words per page is generally considered to be standard. This
standard was set in earlier times, when most manuscripts were prepared
on typewriters with fixed pitch (monospace) fonts. Even though times
have changed, and many more fonts and text options are now available
to the writer, the old guideline of 250 words per page is still the
norm.

WHITE SPACE. Manuscripts are counted by page rather than computer word
count because authors write with varying amounts of 'white space'...
It's possible a page with a good deal of narrative might contain 300+
words, while a page with lots of short dialogue might be not more than
200. Therefore, the editor has to think in terms of number of pages,
not the number of words."

"Word count: based on 25 lines per page in Courier New 12 pt. averages
approximately 250 words per page. 20 pages, an average chapter,
=25,000; 200 pages=50,000; 400 pages=100,000; 600 pages=150,000;
800=200,000 words. Most books are between 50 and 100,000 words long.
Publishers estimate by pages, including the white space. A computer
count of 50,000 words may be 65,000 in publishers' terms. If you use a
computer word count note it on the front of the ms."

Google Answers: Generally accepted number of words per page

Really? Because the prevailing wisdom I've read says that archaic standard is long gone now that we live in the computer age and that word count = actual computer word count.
 

brokethepoint

Troubadour
The information is a couple years old so that may be changing. I would look at is as a way to get an approximate number of pages based on word count.

From what I can see it still looks like the 250 words per page is still a good way to estimate.

I have not looked at eBook formatting so I do not know if that is different.
 

Mindfire

Istar
I think I've figured out my problem. My writing is too "linear".

http://moodywriting.blogspot.com/2012/04/linear-writing-leads-to-flat-narrative.html?m=1

All of the early and mid-story conflicts are relativlely small and end rather quickly. So I guess I have 3 options:

-Stretch out the smaller conflicts by adding filler, which would get boring and repetitive.

-Make my characters less badass, which would pain me.

-Make the early conflicts more complicated somehow, which is the most difficult option.

Oh boy.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
When you want to add tension to a scene -

1. Give the protagonist a goal
2. Create an obstacle to the goal

If the tension is still lacking:

1. Increase the protagonist's motivation to attain the goal
2. Make the obstacle stronger

The same probably applies to your book.

Enhance the protagonist's motivation to achieve his goals.
Make it harder for him to achieve them.

On a book level, this will add scenes and complication.
 

VanClash

Scribe
I really wouldn't mind about word counts. My book is just 70,000 words, which might be a bit too short - but I've worked out the rough page count it'll be - and it's exactly what I wanted. Even though it's under the 'average' fantasy word count, it is what I want. So, my advice it - don't worry about the word count, if you are happy with it, then that’s good enough.

Concerning chapters, I am in the same position as you, and I'm not too sure how the resolve it. Because I can make the chapters later/shorter - but that’ll mean I'm making a chapter end at a really bad bit. I've just tried to procrastinate solving that issue for now - and that's worked well for me :).
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
I really wouldn't mind about word counts. My book is just 70,000 words, which might be a bit too short - but I've worked out the rough page count it'll be - and it's exactly what I wanted. Even though it's under the 'average' fantasy word count, it is what I want. So, my advice it - don't worry about the word count, if you are happy with it, then that’s good enough.

This is good advice if you're planning to self-publish. If you're going to submit to a traditional house, you'll need to be concerned with their requirements... They'll be toting the bill after all.
 

Weaver

Sage
The information is a couple years old so that may be changing. I would look at is as a way to get an approximate number of pages based on word count.

From what I can see it still looks like the 250 words per page is still a good way to estimate.

I have not looked at eBook formatting so I do not know if that is different.

But why would you ESTIMATE, when any word processing program can tell you EXACTLY how many words you've got in your manuscript?

I've seen web sites that will tell you that Microsoft Word, as one example, is "inaccurate" in the word count it gives because it doesn't match the number from whatever method the writer of said site prefers for getting an estimate... This, to me, seems incredibly silly.
 

Weaver

Sage
I think that, typically, the genre requires longer books.

Are you positive you're putting the necessary character development and world building into the work? Maybe make the plot more complex. Add subplots.

I think a novel absolutely can work at 50k. If you were writing scifi action or a thriller, I'd say you were right on course. For fantasy...

Not saying it can't work, just that readers of a genre tend to have certain expectations. Thwart those expectations only with careful consideration.

Yes, science fiction and thrillers used to be fairly short. So was fantasy. Genre fiction of any kind used to be primarily serialized in pulp magazines back in the day, and that limited the length. I haven't seen that in a recent works, though - not in sci-fi and not in thrillers (admittedly, I mostly read stuff by Preston & child, and a bit of Dean Koontz in a feeble hope that he'll soon stop being so hug-a-dog preachy and finish that third Christopher Snow novel), and not in fantasy.

By publishing standards, a novel is anything over 45K. (Wikipedia says anything over 40,000 words: Word count - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) So technically 50K well within the requirements. (If it's between 18 and 40-45K, it's a novella. And apparently the short story I wrote for 11th grade English class - the one that made Mrs. L realize that maybe next year she ought to set a maximum word count for the assignment too - was actually a novelette at 7500 or so words.)

None of this is to say that a fantasy novel written now MUST be longer than is standard for that genre. Traditinal publishers tend to want longer (but not ridiculously long) novels, but as others have said, self-publishing, and ebooks of any kind, are another matter. (I've been editing a fantasy novel - the author is self-publishing in the real sense of the term, started his own company and all to do it - that clocks in at 240,000 words... Good story, but I'm glad I've only had to handle it in electronic copy. :) ) A few of my favorite fantasy novels EVER were fairly short. I don't have exact word counts, but the Amber novels by Roger Zelazny run between 185 and 250 pages in paperback. (The first batch were serialized in Galaxy magazine in the 70s.) Those are really short novels by modern standards; you could fit the entire series of 10 inside the pages of a single Tad Williams novel. :)
 

Weaver

Sage
So, right now, my chapters are about 1300-1400 words on average. My longest chapter so far is 2700 words and my shortest is around 900. So far I'm seven chapters in with a projected length of 35 chapters, though it will likely be longer because I plan to insert some chapters that weren't in my original outline. Disregarding those, with my 1400 word average, projected first draft length is around 49,000 words. With the new chapters, it might get to 56,000. Maybe.

Is that too short? Are my chapters too short? I get this feeling like I'm doing something wrong because it ought to be longer. (Isn't 90,000 words the average for a fantasy novel?) My writing style does tend to be pretty straightforward. Maybe I'm not embellishing enough or giving too few details. :confused: Thoughts?

I read a James Patterson novel once (the only worthwhile thing about it was the mild amusement I got from the appearance of the word "manticore" in the narration), and I recall the chapters were generally about 3-4 pages. I've also seen chapters (in fantasy and sci-fi novels) that ran 30 pages or more. There is no standard length. A chapter is whatever it needs to be. I personally prefer to divide the story into chapters according to what is happening - it's not an absolute, but chapter length does affect pacing to some degree. (Think of a chapter as what happens between one "commercial break" and the next, if that helps. Or a single "episode" in a series.)

(I seem to write chapters that run about 2000-2500 words. My twin tries to make his at least 2500 and prefers 3000-3500. The fantasy novel that I'll finish editing as soon as the author sends me the last chapter had 5000-word chapters in the beginning, and the last 10 or so - there are 60 chapters in all - they've been closer to 2000.)

There's also no standard for how many chapters a novel has. Again, the only "rule" is "whatever works."

(I understand the issue with a story being short because the author tends to gloss over details. However, this is not necessarily a problem. Some readers don't want a lot of details; they want a story that moves quickly without being interrupted - as they see it - by description and backstory and all.)
 
Honestly, chapter length is an artform in its own right.

I mean, just scene length combines the amount of plot and background in it, your style's speed, and other things (do you start the big gathering with the gavel, or five minutes walking in to build mood, or at the last third of the debate when the arguments have all crystalized?). Or just, what things do you think deserve their own scene at all?

And then chapter questions build onto those. I think the main differences chapter splits make are that
  1. they tell the reader "we finished a unit" or else "it's still going, but wasn't that a shocker!"
  2. they make it easier to skip to other characters
  3. they help the reader to pause reading there if he wants.

(The last might be a good or bad thing. Light summer reading can have tiny chapters so you can always put it down when the pina coladas come; epic or mood-heavy tales may want the reader to settle in longer. Just let me plug the "readers average 7500-15000 words a sitting" figure again, it really seems right to me.)

Also, as the "Average Chapter Length" thread noted, it can be awkward if a book's chapters vary too much in length.

It could come down to what your scenes are like, and whether their sizes and buildup make better building blocks for shorter or longer chapters. Or you can start planning with your major events and then break those chapters down into scenes trying to make each end with a bang.

But it all ties together, and it's the whole that has to work.
 

Mindfire

Istar
Honestly, chapter length is an artform in its own right.

I mean, just scene length combines the amount of plot and background in it, your style's speed, and other things (do you start the big gathering with the gavel, or five minutes walking in to build mood, or at the last third of the debate when the arguments have all crystalized?). Or just, what things do you think deserve their own scene at all?

And then chapter questions build onto those. I think the main differences chapter splits make are that
  1. they tell the reader "we finished a unit" or else "it's still going, but wasn't that a shocker!"
  2. they make it easier to skip to other characters
  3. they help the reader to pause reading there if he wants.

(The last might be a good or bad thing. Light summer reading can have tiny chapters so you can always put it down when the pina coladas come; epic or mood-heavy tales may want the reader to settle in longer. Just let me plug the "readers average 7500-15000 words a sitting" figure again, it really seems right to me.)

Also, as the "Average Chapter Length" thread noted, it can be awkward if a book's chapters vary too much in length.

It could come down to what your scenes are like, and whether their sizes and buildup make better building blocks for shorter or longer chapters. Or you can start planning with your major events and then break those chapters down into scenes trying to make each end with a bang.

But it all ties together, and it's the whole that has to work.

In general, scene = chapter for me. I find that scene changes make natural chapter breaks.
 
Isn't the ideal chapter length determined mainly by the pace of the novel? I'm no expert but I never really planned the length of my chapters. I just started ending them when I found the right moment to end it. My chapters range from about 2700 words to around 6000 but the overwhelming majority are about 4000.
 
I think the difference is that these 100K-ish estimates are agents' advice for us mere mortals, people trying to build our careers. The 200K+ epics work better once you are Terry Goodkind, Robert Jordan, or the like. Of course all of those mega-authors had to start somewhere, and I don't know how many of them had been publishing shorts and smaller novels for years and how many just sent the first epic to an agent wrapped in a lot of luck and sheer persistence, but...

That's exactly what I worry about -- that a publisher may be unwilling to consider a long book from a total unknown. I had hoped that Epic Fantasy was a sub-genre in itself that permitted novels to be 150,000+ words. Does anyone know if Terry Goodkind published other works before his 200,000+ Sword of Truth? Did the other authors of mega-novels publish shorter novels first?
 

JonSnow

Troubadour
This topic has come up a few times. I've read a ton of epic fantasy, both the wordy/long type like Jordan/R.R. Martin/Goodkind, and the less wordy/long like Haydon/Brooks/Eddings. I've actually counted words and chapters from dozens of fantasy books/series, because I was curious about this for my own book. Here is what I have come up with, some of it being a response from prior posts in this thread.

First- 250 words per page is well below average for epic fantasy. Even non-epic fantasy like Dragonlance or David Eddings are over 300. For epic fantasy, I'd say you're safe anywhere from 325-400 words per page. I think you would want to take into account how long your book is going to be. If it will be 200k+ words, you're OK going toward the upper end. The first book of my series will be around 150k words, and my average page length is around 350.

Chapter Length- Don't change your writing to accommodate this, though a general rule of thumb would probably be around 15 pages. Give or take a few, depending the plot and the pacing, your chapters could range from 10-20 pages without distracting the reader. This would put you around 3500-5000 words per chapter, which I would say puts you right in the sweet spot.

Take it for what it's worth. This is just my opinion, and I'm not a publisher. Just taking examples from what is currently being done in the epic fantasy genre. Ultimately, your publisher is going to determine words per page/page per chapter depending on fonts and page layout.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
1. You don't need chapters if you don't want them;
2. The chapter length should develop according to your own sense of how it should be. You can look at published books on the shelves and find anything from chapters running a couple of pages to chapters running very long indeed.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
...250 words per page is well below average for epic fantasy.

The 250 word per page mark is generally accepted as the correct amount for manuscript submittal to a publisher or literary agent. It has nothing to do with average words per page of already published works.

It's always best to check with the person you're submitting to for their specific standards.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
Isn't the ideal chapter length determined mainly by the pace of the novel? I'm no expert but I never really planned the length of my chapters. I just started ending them when I found the right moment to end it. My chapters range from about 2700 words to around 6000 but the overwhelming majority are about 4000.

I agree with Steerpike, but, strangely enough, these numbers are spot on for my epic fantasy.
 

JonSnow

Troubadour
The 250 word per page mark is generally accepted as the correct amount for manuscript submittal to a publisher or literary agent. It has nothing to do with average words per page of already published works.

It's always best to check with the person you're submitting to for their specific standards.

This is good advice. I was referring to published work. Obviously, standards for the manuscript are going to vary, depending on who/where you're submitting it to.
 
The 250 word per page mark is generally accepted as the correct amount for manuscript submittal to a publisher or literary agent. It has nothing to do with average words per page of already published works.

It's always best to check with the person you're submitting to for their specific standards.

A word is a word is a word. Pages are only for shortcuts, and only if you know what the page format is.

Yes, "250/page" is handy if someone hands you a hard copy at a convention or something, assuming it's the proper Times 12 Double-Space-- but real publishing submissions are electronic, so I don't know if they pay any attention to that now.

(Or, you could eyeball pages if you're using studying how long an author makes certain kinds of scenes or such-- but you also want to count his average words per page to get real figures, so you can compare them to other books and layouts. Or, someone mentioned words per page as a measure of white space, writing streams of dialog vs blocky description and so on, but again that works only when comparing within a standard format, the same book, or similar books.)

Mostly, it comes back to word count anyway-- and now that we aren't fumbling with hard copy every time we write, I'd say it's better to think in word terms.
 
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