What are your storytelling pet peeves?

[Ireth]

It... depends a bit on how you use the prophecy, I'd say, and how prophecies actually work in your setting.

Agreed. Harry Potter did this well, I think, with the ambiguous nature of the prophecy surrounding the one who could defeat Voldemort, and having Harry *choose* to go forward and try to fulfil it.

That said, one of my biggest pet peeves is the love triangle wherein one of the hero/heroine's choices is clearly far better for him/her than the other, yet he/she still chooses the one who's bad for him/her. If you're going to have a triangle, at least make it an equal-sided one, amirite?

 

[Anders Ämting]

Agreed. Harry Potter did this well, I think, with the ambiguous nature of the prophecy surrounding the one who could defeat Voldemort, and having Harry *choose* to go forward and try to fulfil it.

What I like about it is that Trelawney is supposed to be a terrible fortune-teller, yet even here "fake" predictions tend to come true in some way. (Including predicting Dumbledore's death in an insanely roundabout but absolutely correct way.)

 

[Chilari]

Yes, prophecies can be a tool. I prefer to model them on the Greek system, where one legend has an oracle tell a king that if he goes to war against a powerful enemy a great army will be defeated. It was his army that got defeated. The prophecy was ambiguous. Then there's another one in which a Spartan general is told he will capture Argos. He assumes the city is meant, but after he captures a sacred grove of the same name, decides not to go after the city because the prophecy has been fulfilled. The Spartan government put him on trial for cowardice, but after hearing of the prophecy they find him not guilty because attempting to defy the gods is a very bad idea.

In fantasy, I like to see this kind of prophecy: a prediction is made but there's some ambiguity about it. It is technically fulfilled, but not in the way the characters hoped or expected. Then there's the double bluff: the characters, knowing that prophecies can be tricky things, attempt to think of all the ways the prophecy can be fulfilled and aim for the one they want while guarding against those they don't. The prophecy is fulfilled in a manner that is the straightforward, most obvious way, but with negative and unexpected fallout because of the actions the characters took in trying to guard against the other ways.

 

[iWant iStrive]

I was toying with the idea of a prophet in my novel, but am still struggling with how to incorporate it.

I essentially want the prophet to tell the main character to that he should go out and try to change the world, and he will, but not in such an explicit way. Acting more as a guide than a fortune teller.

 

[wordwalker]

One fun thing about prophecies: according to the Rhine Institute, and the founder's wife and partner Dr. Louisa Rhine, of about sixty precognitive flashes people reported where they'd tried to change "the future" and it wasn't something far out of reach, the only ones who didn't succeed in it were the ones who hadn't forseen enough information to make the change right. Everyone else did change it.

Then again: Buffy, Season One finale, Prophecy Girl.

 

[PaulineMRoss]

I dunno, if we're talking about my ex boyfriend, I think I'd rather take my chances with the dragon.

Why isn't there a button on this forum for 'Like' or thumbs up or 'I just spat <beverage of choice> all over my keyboard'. I mean, 'thanks for a useful post' seems kinda inadequate for a line like this.

Made my day, anyway.

 

[Anders Ämting]

Yes, prophecies can be a tool. I prefer to model them on the Greek system, where one legend has an oracle tell a king that if he goes to war against a powerful enemy a great army will be defeated. It was his army that got defeated. The prophecy was ambiguous.

That... sounds kinda stupid, though. That's like saying: "If you go to war, someone will win." That's not divination, it's ordinary logic. Anyone can make that prediction.

I think that a little bit of ambiguity (like capturing Argos the grove rather than Argos the city) is okay, but prophecies should still provide a decent prediction of a future event in such a way that the one being given the prophecy can actually anticipate it. They have to be reliable, to at least some extent. Otherwise they become kinda pointless - if a prophecy is so vague and ambigious that it can mean pretty anything, you might as well not have prophecies, because after the first three times or so nobody is going to bother listening to the prophets.

 

[Steerpike]

Why isn't there a button on this forum for 'Like' or thumbs up or 'I just spat <beverage of choice> all over my keyboard'. I mean, 'thanks for a useful post' seems kinda inadequate for a line like this.

Made my day, anyway.

There's always: :goodjob: or

Ok, not exactly the same, but it gets a sentiment across.

 

[razzazzika]

Personally, my favorite pet peeve is a whiny main character (e.g. Terry Goodkind's sword of truth) Richard was constantly whining about something or another. "I don't want to be the seeker. I just want to go back home and stay a woods guide." And when like, a ton of people try to explain to him he's a wizard he's like, "No I'm not, I'm just a simple woods guide, not a wizard." Same with "That prophecy isn't about me."

It annoyed me... But I still finished the series cause the plot was good.

I also am a hater of Mary Sues, bad ones at least... The most teeth grinding book was an early Star Trek novel named 'Vulcan!' (Yes I'm a bit of a trekkie) This book had this smart, beautiful, and racist main character. Everything out of her mouth was whining about how she didn't want to work with spock(yes back to the whining) because she had a bad experience with a vulcan in the past and hated them now. But the book went on to have not only Kirk and Bones expressing a love interest in her, but Spock as well. I mean.. what the hell. Kirk I understand, he humps anything, but Bones was like, completely and instantly in love with her when she wanted nothing romantical with him. And then Spock somehow fell in love with her intrigued by her hatred and even broke through her vulcan hatred by saving her life. It just... pissed me off greatly. I'm glad that book is not considered cannon (it had something in it about the neutral zone growing, and the planet was entering romulan territory... it was altogether a bad book)

Anyway... reading this thread has caused me to re-assess some of the things I've been doing in my own novel

* Heroes who are incredibly lethal killing machines, forcing the author to invent implausibly powerful opponents
* Villains who are one step behind the heroes for the majority of the story (villains should always be ahead of the heroes until the very end, when the hero triumphs -- unless it's a tragedy )

In my story I do have an overpowered hero, and an overpowered villain, but I tell the story from both their sides and go on to show their weaknesses and strengths, so I think I'm good, but I see where you're coming from...

I mean, Dragonball Z got riddiculous after what, the 2nd season or so. Goku and Frieza blew up a freakin' planet while fighting, then when they thought there was no one worse, Cell shows up and he's somehow stronger.

I know this is a fantasy hallmark, but I've always hated prophecy as a storytelling device.

For one thing, I don't like essentially being told at the beginning how the story is going to end. I also dislike the notion of removing people's free will. I like the idea that you really don't know what happens next... no one does... and that the action or inaction of one person can radically alter the story.

Again, don't shoot me... just personal preference...

It... depends a bit on how you use the prophecy, I'd say, and how prophecies actually work in your setting.

It varies a bit depending on wether you are taking the strictly fatalistic approach ("This is what's going to happen and there's nothing you can do about it.") or using prophesies are warnings for something avoidable. ("Do this, but don't do this, or something bad will happen.") It also varies depending on what kind of culture you are dealing with: For example, the vikings were extremely fatalistic in general so a viking-inspired culture would take prophecies very seriously. Additionally, there are various ways to subvert the trope.

Over-all, I think it can be a useful plot device - my current project will probably involve prophecies in order to set up some events that need to have occured. Another idea I had involved prophecy as a by-product of time travel. Then I had a short-lived comic project where prophecies were essentially backwards memories: They would always come true, but there where a lot of them and they were about as reliable as someone trying to recall a childhood event. The plot started with a character trying to make a prophecy come true on purpose, failing, and accidentally fullfilling a different prophecy.

On the other hand, one should take care not to resort to it out of simple lazyness. ("This ordinary farm-boy is the hero who will defeat Lord Dark, because the prophesy said so.")

One thing I do object to is stories where the plot heavily relies on a prophesy, but prophecies and prophets are not a thing in the setting otherwise. I think that if there's an actual prophecy at work, that implies some people in this setting can actually predict the future with some accuracy and that needs to be taken into consideration.

Again, Sword of truth was big on prophecy. But it was done right, because the main character basically said F*** prophecy, it's not happening. And well, it did, but not as expected the way the prophecy was written.

I myself have seers in my book, who see things that are going to happen, but the whole point of seeing the future, in my eyes, is that is is only a vision of a possible future and not what has to happen. One of my main characters is a seer, who will get random visions and change things appropriately to make it not happen. (I'm carefully skirting the line of Deus-ex-machina with that one though)

 

[Zero Angel]

I know this is a fantasy hallmark, but I've always hated prophecy as a storytelling device.

For one thing, I don't like essentially being told at the beginning how the story is going to end. I also dislike the notion of removing people's free will. I like the idea that you really don't know what happens next... no one does... and that the action or inaction of one person can radically alter the story.

Again, don't shoot me... just personal preference...

I can't stand prophecies as well. In my books, I have a treatise on how prophecies don't work in my world (although they do exist). Whether they're self-fulfilling or not, prophecies in general annoy me to no end.

Agreed. Harry Potter did this well, I think, with the ambiguous nature of the prophecy surrounding the one who could defeat Voldemort, and having Harry *choose* to go forward and try to fulfil it.

That said, one of my biggest pet peeves is the love triangle wherein one of the hero/heroine's choices is clearly far better for him/her than the other, yet he/she still chooses the one who's bad for him/her. If you're going to have a triangle, at least make it an equal-sided one, amirite?

Ooh, the stupid love triangle one is something I can't stand either. In anime/manga there is commonly the issue of where there is only one character that the protagonist wants to end up with, but ALL the supporting characters want the main character and the protagonist is too wishy-washy to say no. It can get pretty frustrating.

Why isn't there a button on this forum for 'Like' or thumbs up or 'I just spat <beverage of choice> all over my keyboard'. I mean, 'thanks for a useful post' seems kinda inadequate for a line like this.

Made my day, anyway.

There is also an "Add to this user's reputation" and you can leave a comment, although no one else can see it except that user (I believe).

 

[BWFoster78]

I can't stand prophecies as well. In my books, I have a treatise on how prophecies don't work in my world (although they do exist). Whether they're self-fulfilling or not, prophecies in general annoy me to no end.

Cue Untouchable theme music: You have become what you beheld, and you are content that you have done right.

I feel you. I hate dream sequences with a purple passion. The second scene in my book? A dream sequence.

 

[Zero Angel]

Cue Untouchable theme music: You have become what you beheld, and you are content that you have done right.

I feel you. I hate dream sequences with a purple passion. The second scene in my book? A dream sequence.

Great point, Brian. I guess what I dislike about prophecies is not so much their existence, but rather the railroad-y Deus ex Machina-ness of them all. In my books, I put a mechanism behind prophecies, and understanding of the mechanism should resolve Deus ex Machina concerns and enable characters to "break" prophecies.

For those at all interested: The treatise I mentioned is written by the heir of Merlin (a historical/legendary character). Merlin was able to "remember" the future. In War of the Ages, his memory was unfortunately imperfect and he remembered many different futures (on an aside: which is why so many different versions of the King Arthur legends exist). The reasoning behind this is that magick alters reality and each character has, at the least, magick of their life-force. Although Merlin's memories could overcome minor bumps in magickal ability and get the general flow of things that would happen, when multiple magickal signatures of significant power interacted, there was no way to predict even major events. The fact that people possess magick on an inherent level in this world brings the conclusion to the heir who is writing the treatise that free will exists and that prophecy is more of a forecast that can be easily gotten wrong than a done-deal.

 

[Aravelle]

Wanara, that's quite a list you've got there. Can't say I disagree with any of those. I especially hate tragic back stories, or as it is refered to in the writing circles my fiance is in, having something bad happen to the protagonist "for the feels". It's so transparent.

Wait, what if the tragedy is relevant to the plot? That doesn't count, does it?

 

[Zero Angel]

Wait, what if the tragedy is relevant to the plot? That doesn't count, does it?

If it's done well, I think most people agree anything is forgivable. Tragic backstories, when done badly, are frequently used to make the "perfect" character have a flaw so that the development is pre-story and the author can point and say, "look he/she is complex. He/she does not have a happy life!"

 

[Ireth]

If it's done well, I think most people agree anything is forgivable. Tragic backstories, when done badly, are frequently used to make the "perfect" character have a flaw so that the development is pre-story and the author can point and say, "look he/she is complex. He/she does not have a happy life!"

Good thing to point out. Vincent, the hero of Winter's Queen has a few tragedies in his past -- one, his wife died in childbirth (yes, I know, cliche, but it still happens even in this day and age); and two, his daughter was almost kidnapped mere minutes afterward (unrelated to the death of her mother). The kidnapping attempt winds up setting up the entire plot of Winter's Queen, since it leads to Vincent and his family believing in Fae, which is why the villain chooses Vincent's now-teenaged daughter for a bride.

 

[Alex97]

Super morally righteous MC's. Obviously if your MC is fighting for the 'goodies' he/she needs to be good in most cases, but I'm talking about the irritating goody two shoe types. For example, there's a massive battle going on and the MC tells his best buddy not to slay the demon because actually deep down he's a nice guy and only murdered thousands of people because he was misunderstood and bullied at school. Slightly over the top example, but I think overly good good guys are very boring.

Another thing I don't like is super over powered teenage warriors. How can a 16 year old beat some hench bloke who's been a mercenary for 30 years?' Teenage spies are especially annoying. I have a few teenage soldiers in my current project, but they've been training since childhood and are still useless when compared to their older companions.

Wait, what if the tragedy is relevant to the plot? That doesn't count, does it?

I think this can actually be quite good if done well. The tragedy has to have an active effect on the way the character acts and feels. If the past tragedy is just something mentioned then it's going to seem like a poor attempt to add a weakness. I think it's better to show the character behaving in a certain way and gradually reveal the reasons why as opposed to just overtly stating 'Fred's wife died which is why he is so sad' at the start of the novel.

 

[Zero Angel]

Super morally righteous MC's. Obviously if your MC is fighting for the 'goodies' he/she needs to be good in most cases, but I'm talking about the irritating goody two shoe types. For example, there's a massive battle going on and the MC tells his best buddy not to slay the demon because actually deep down he's a nice guy and only murdered thousands of people because he was misunderstood and bullied at school. Slightly over the top example, but I think overly good good guys are very boring.

What if the MC fails quite a lot because of this? (PS don't read The Throne of Ao )

 

[Alex97]

If the MC failed as a result of this there could be some quite interesting character development. A character could change dramatically as a result of failure.

On a side note I think we all know someone in real life like this. There's always one prat who thinks he has the authority of righteousness behind him but fails to look at a situation realistically.

 

[BenGoram]

As a subset of Status Quo is God, I find the desperate need to maintain the "masquerade" tiresome. And in such works having to run through the same disbelief/explanation/acceptance process every time a new character is introduced to the "secret world".

 

[Ireth]

If the MC failed as a result of this there could be some quite interesting character development. A character could change dramatically as a result of failure.

An excellent point. One of my RP characters, Cadell, is a villain-turned-protagonist who is responsible for creating a temporary truce between Fae and mortals in the face of an impending threat on both worlds, and he is trying to get his queen to uphold the truce in times of peace as well as war, despite knowing that attempting such may very well turn his queen, to whom he is undyingly loyal, against him. He's right -- he is going to be flogged and exiled for his troubles, and it will be a very heavy blow to his spirit. Whether he accepts his exile as freedom or sinks into depression as a result of it is still way up in the air.