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Writing Sword-Fighting?
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Zero Angel
Auror
If by purple, you mean "elaborate", then yes. You don't have to describe everything for starters. I've given this advice before in fighting threads, but I always focus on the impacts in battle. I think of most of my fight scenes as "bam-bam-bam-bam-bam"
The hyphens representing the text to get from one bam to the next bam.
Although, to elaborate a little more, it's usually more like, "bam-bam-BAM-bam-BAMBAMBAM-bam-BAM......BAAAAAMMMMM"
Was that helpful?
Although my hyperactivity is off the charts presently, I meant it sincerely. With swordfighting involving katana specifically, there is a lot of build-up with a single definitive BAM. What about the short sword though? If possible, a samurai would not use a katana in close quarters fighting. That's what the entire idea of the daisho is. The samurai has their big sword and their little sword; to every blade, there is a reason.
Another Japanese inspiration you may want to consider is Miyamoto Musashi. He didn't limit himself to just katana, and in fact, he eventually felt that katana were too easy and from that point on fought with bokken. Anyway, his book, "Book of Five Rings" or "Go Rin No Sho" talks extensively about how he believes swordfighting should be done (how he does it), and is pretty standard reading in any study of martial arts, especially Japanese kenjutsu, and crossing over into philosophical realms with applications outside of swordfighting (similar to how the Art of War is).
It's short too, go read it. Make sure to ruminate a lot. It's dense and Musashi encourages it.
Edit: Oh, oh, and arrows anyone? Why bother getting up close if you can kill from afar?
The hyphens representing the text to get from one bam to the next bam.
Although, to elaborate a little more, it's usually more like, "bam-bam-BAM-bam-BAMBAMBAM-bam-BAM......BAAAAAMMMMM"
Was that helpful?
Although my hyperactivity is off the charts presently, I meant it sincerely. With swordfighting involving katana specifically, there is a lot of build-up with a single definitive BAM. What about the short sword though? If possible, a samurai would not use a katana in close quarters fighting. That's what the entire idea of the daisho is. The samurai has their big sword and their little sword; to every blade, there is a reason.
Another Japanese inspiration you may want to consider is Miyamoto Musashi. He didn't limit himself to just katana, and in fact, he eventually felt that katana were too easy and from that point on fought with bokken. Anyway, his book, "Book of Five Rings" or "Go Rin No Sho" talks extensively about how he believes swordfighting should be done (how he does it), and is pretty standard reading in any study of martial arts, especially Japanese kenjutsu, and crossing over into philosophical realms with applications outside of swordfighting (similar to how the Art of War is).
It's short too, go read it. Make sure to ruminate a lot. It's dense and Musashi encourages it.
Edit: Oh, oh, and arrows anyone? Why bother getting up close if you can kill from afar?
Make certain not to write about a fight as if your listing off moves.
Keep focus on the characters in the fight.
Physically act out any pieces of the fight that are difficult to conceptualize in print. It helps to piece the larger fight up this way, concentrating on the important parts through greater description.
wordwalker
Auror
A fight is about choices, same as any other scene.
- Whichever side is losing (or not winning fast enough, or... well, anything), starts having to choose how to respond: more aggression, deception, caution, what?
- Each choice has its plusses and minuses; if you can spell those out (or describe the choices so the reader can guess what they are), which one he takes says plenty about who he is.
- And then, if that choice doesn't work, even more suspense!
FatCat
Maester
I think it depends on the length you want the fight to be. As mentioned above, swordfights can be ended swiftly, especially with the Japanese-style your mirroring. I'd say build up the anticipation, not the actual action; suspense in feints and silence. If it's a duel, I'd imagine a large part is psychological. The action can be extremely detailed, coupled with brevity. As long as you don't end up with a cinematic showcase lasting several paragraphs, you can detail specific maneuvers.
Jess A
Archmage
Go and take some fencing lessons (remember there are different styles). If this costs too much get a friend to come and fight with you (as suggested above, acting it out helps considerably for some people. It helps me).
You might find sword fighting isn't quite like in the movies...and people fight dirty.
You might find sword fighting isn't quite like in the movies...and people fight dirty.
Zero Angel
Auror
I haven't found much to agree with most people that fence...
Fencing is a very specific style that, although like every martial art can have its principles and theories adapted, tends to favor specific weapons and clothing.
Anders Ämting
Auror
On the other hand, depending on exactly what you train, you might get the direct opposite impression. Different martial arts have different degrees of martial intent.
When I took kendo lessons, I was actually told to show my back to my opponent as long as possible after passing him, because the rules said he wasn't allowed to hit me there. In a real swordfight that would probably get you killed.
Well, pretty much all martial arts/combat sports use specific weapons and clothing.
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Nebuchadnezzar
Troubadour
This is one of the reasons that I have some doubts about using modern martial arts as a go-by for a fight scene. The few times I've watched modern sport fencing, my impression is that combatants using those techniques in an actual fight would probably end up killing each other. Kendo seemed to have similar issues. All the weaponless fighting systems that I'm aware of have developed rules and practice methods so that when combatants spar they don't end up seriously injuring each other.
All of which is completely sensible and IRL I wouldn't have it any other way -- no one wants to get killed at karate practice. But it does pose problems for scenes where the characters really do want to kill each other...
I agree. There are a few exceptions.
First, martial arts do impart a physical understanding of kinesiology. This can be very helpful in keeping combat realistic.
Second, if you've ever been in a real fight or two (not the grade school playground variety) that experience on how fast & brutal they really are, is invaluable.
Third, there are martial systems where the brutality of combat is realistic. I did about 6 months at Randy Couture's UFC gym. Combat wresting, Jui-jitsu, Muay Thai...at the end of each hour long class, you had to fight 3 different people for 3 mins each. Alas, in my early 40s, even with a deep martial arts background...my body didn't react well. Injuries were constant. Hard to explain split lips, black eyes, and a perpetual limp as a working professional. Age has limits.
Anyway, there are ways to gain real experience. Short of that, my advice is to avoid over-description of combat unless it serves a purpose. In that case, where you need vivid portrayals, go watch some UFC fights, go watch some videos on weapon fighting (not Olympic fencing). If you're going to write about something you see, try the sequence yourself. See if it is at least plausible. If it is...run with it.
First, martial arts do impart a physical understanding of kinesiology. This can be very helpful in keeping combat realistic.
Second, if you've ever been in a real fight or two (not the grade school playground variety) that experience on how fast & brutal they really are, is invaluable.
Third, there are martial systems where the brutality of combat is realistic. I did about 6 months at Randy Couture's UFC gym. Combat wresting, Jui-jitsu, Muay Thai...at the end of each hour long class, you had to fight 3 different people for 3 mins each. Alas, in my early 40s, even with a deep martial arts background...my body didn't react well. Injuries were constant. Hard to explain split lips, black eyes, and a perpetual limp as a working professional. Age has limits.
Anyway, there are ways to gain real experience. Short of that, my advice is to avoid over-description of combat unless it serves a purpose. In that case, where you need vivid portrayals, go watch some UFC fights, go watch some videos on weapon fighting (not Olympic fencing). If you're going to write about something you see, try the sequence yourself. See if it is at least plausible. If it is...run with it.
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Zero Angel
Auror
In every martial arts class or group I've ever been in there was always the point where the instructor went, "Now if you were in a bar/street fight..." and explain what to do outside of legal competition.
Anders Ämting
Auror
Well, like I said, the level of martial intent varies. HEMA reconstruction styles, for example, tend to be refreshingly relaxed about that sort of thing. At least in my experience, which went something like this:
Kendo: Spent several weeks of hitting air before the mere possibility of crossing swords with anyone was even hinted at. Despite the shinai being made of bamboo and relatively harmless, we were abolutely forbidden to spar without wearing the full set of armor. Since I could never afford an armor back then, I never got to spar.
HEMA: On our first day, the teacher spent a few minutes teaching us newcomers the basic guards. I was then handed a hard plastic sword, with the same weight and balance as the real thing, and was told to fight one of the regulars with only a fencing helmet for protection. It was awesome.
Alex97
Troubadour
This might seem a bit odd, but check out Total War Shogun 2. It's and RTS game based on the Sengoku period of Japan. All the fighting both in game and in cinematic trailers was motion captured by martial artists. Not sure how realistic it is but the Creative Assembly usually try and make their games as believable as possible.
If you're planning on doing any indoor fighting scenes with mid sized to small rooms it may be wise to go with a short sword (kodachi I think).
If you're planning on doing any indoor fighting scenes with mid sized to small rooms it may be wise to go with a short sword (kodachi I think).
Jess A
Archmage
On fencing and sword fighting for real: There are clubs (at least around me) who deal with older styles of sword fighting (not foil fencing etc). I just find it easier to act it out, then elaborate and research and do the necessary changes. Obviously you need to use imagination...not just basic 'modern techniques'.
Anders Ämting
Auror
Épée fencing actually isn't that unrealistic in a technical sense, since it doesn't have a Right Of Way rule and allows hits on the entire body. The main problem is that the épée doesn't correspond well to any actual sword - most rapiers are too heavy, though there are some light transitional rapiers that supposedly works okay.
Foil would make sense as a smallsword style if the rules were the same as with the épée, but stuff like Right Of Way and limited target areas, etc, makes it too formalized.
Saber, as I understand it, is kinda useless - far too removed from its origins to work with any real sword.
Foil would make sense as a smallsword style if the rules were the same as with the épée, but stuff like Right Of Way and limited target areas, etc, makes it too formalized.
Saber, as I understand it, is kinda useless - far too removed from its origins to work with any real sword.
Alex97
Troubadour
Any form of European fencing isn't going to be very useful as research for Japanese sword fighting. Although I agree that Épée is the more realistic of the three standard styles.
Reminds me of my fencing club. All the new guys go with foil but fence like their using a saber. Always fun fencing against someone who only knows how to slash
zizban
Troubadour
I am terrible at writing sword fighting scenes. I try to avoid them.
Anders Ämting
Auror
Yeah, I'm just drifting a bit.
To adress the actual subject: If I'd write a fighting style based on Japanese swordsmanship, I would put a lot of focus on range and timing, with shorter exchanges than I would use for something more western-ish. Who has the longer weapon, who is quicker to enter the other's maai* first, that sort of thing.
Also, a style similar to kenjutsu implies that shields aren't widely used for some reason. That's more of a world-building thing, but it's still good to keep in mind.
*Basically, the range from which you can attack your opponent.
Nebuchadnezzar
Troubadour
This topic has made me curious -- can anyone suggest a published author(s) who writes a good sword fight (or hand to hand combat in general)?
DreamerRothfuss and Jordan, to my knowledge both wrote sword fighting in a similar fashion. Specifically named 'moves' and forms. I would personally say Rothfuss is worth looking at for the OP as the Adem (I believe that's what they are called) are a not a million miles away from eastern swordsmanship or culture.
My favourite author Abbercrombie also has a very good way of pacing a fight scene, although his scenes always come across and more brutal and may I even say desperate.
My favourite author Abbercrombie also has a very good way of pacing a fight scene, although his scenes always come across and more brutal and may I even say desperate.
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