• Welcome to the Fantasy Writing Forums. Register Now to join us!

The Value of Grit

Ankari

Hero Breaker
Moderator
Greetings Folks,

I ran across this blog post by Joe Abercrombie (I always mentally finish his name with "and Finch"). He tackles the subject of the rise of dark, gritty fantasies and the backlash he has received. If you have the time, read it and share your thoughts.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
Love it & I agree with everything he said. Reality, that which we live in, is a gritty, malicious place at times. These are the things we hide our children from when they're young while other children live it daily. Sure, there are beautiful things but beauty, as with all things, has a contrast. That contrast should be explored, every facet. Close character view points that do not approach these aspects seem immature to me as a reader at this point. I certainly don't want to write them which is why my work dives headlong into the dirt...violence...sex...drug abuse. These things help cast a dark side of the coin.

I love what he says about honesty in writing. The things people want to read about often are the worst aspects of humanity. The evils of the world and how people deal with them are interesting and exciting stories. I often think that if you have a great true story of your life, your life was a hard one...a life that many wouldn't choose to live no matter how good the story at the end may be.

In my view, writing with honesty, as the world truly and naturally behaves, is the single most important part of modern story telling. Some people will not like it. I accept that. Many (I hope) will.
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
I just read this yesterday and thought it was pretty insightful. I think what he says about writing with honesty was spot on as well. I tend to lean more towards gritty fantasy myself, but I think that has to do less with the gore, sex, and cursing that so many others seem to associate with that kind of fiction. It has more to do with the writer writing the kind of story he wants to write, regardless if it's trendy or whatever. You can always tell when a writer is trying to write the type of story they don't want to write. What makes Abercrombie appealing as a writer to me is that he focuses in on characters who think, act, and talk like real people. I think some modern readers like this style of fantasy because for them the characters aren't a representative of a lofty ideal. They feel like real people with real consequences to their actions.
 
I mean no disrespect to Abercrombie, but the people I encounter online who praise his work tend to talk about it in the same superficial blood-and-guts manner as the people he accuses of criticizing his work. His intended message may have gotten through to a lot of people, but it sure hasn't gotten through to all of them (particularly the young ones.)

P.S. I keep deleting and undeleting this, but I want first and foremost to read about characters I can like, or at least be neutral towards. I've picked up plenty of fantasy stories that discussed dark subjects and had characters I liked, but whenever I picked up a fantasy that was openly marketed as "gritty" or "cynical", I wound up hating everyone by the end of the third chapter. (And believe me, it's hard to make me hate someone.)
 
Last edited:

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
I mean no disrespect to Abercrombie, but the people I encounter online who praise his work tend to talk about it in the same superficial blood-and-guts manner as the people he accuses of criticizing his work. His intended message may have gotten through to a lot of people, but it sure hasn't gotten through to all of them (particularly the young ones.)

P.S. I keep deleting and undeleting this, but I want first and foremost to read about characters I can like, or at least be neutral towards. I've picked up plenty of fantasy stories that discussed dark subjects and had characters I liked, but whenever I picked up a fantasy that was openly marketed as "gritty" or "cynical", I wound up hating everyone by the end of the third chapter. (And believe me, it's hard to make me hate someone.)

He states in the blog post that this style of writing, like any other, is not for everyone. Some will like it, some won't. His commentary is focused on the validity of gritty fantasy and naysayers who trash it as lowborn. Some feel that a higher dose of reality in fantasy is enjoyable.. that it is a more accurate representaion of a plausible world.

It's a bit far fetched to criticize a view point from what you've gleaned off online reviews or from proponents of gore. There's a deepness of character that's completely overlooked in that viewpoint.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
Grits are very valuable, especially in the American south. Staple breakfast food.

Oh, GRIT not GRITS.

Very well, then.

Interesting that he echos what T.Allen says in the worldbuilding thread that there's a trend in modern fantasy to emphasize character over setting.

While I agree with that, the rest I can leave.

When I was in high school, I read a lot of Stephen King and found that, while I loved reading his books because I couldn't put them down, I hated how depressed I felt by the end.

Good fiction transports the reader emotionally into the story. Grit and horror leave you depressed. Personally, I'd prefer to be happy.
 

WyrdMystic

Inkling
I like a bit of grit in fantasy, though would not want all fantasy to have grit. There needs to be a range so you have choice as to what kind of story you want to read given your mood at the time.

My objection comes when there is too much grit, when every evil soldier is a rapist, when every ugly inn keeper is a child abuser, where every antagonist likes to do nothing but torture for reason other than to shock. There comes a point where it ceases to be shocking, where it loses all value and ends up as nothing more than off putting.

I like Terry Brooks – put any grit in those books, you ruin them in my view. I also like Steven Erikson’s Forge of Darkness – that is grit incarnate.

In summary – grit, like anything else, can be good or bad, well done or misused.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
Good fiction transports the reader emotionally into the story. Grit and horror leave you depressed. Personally, I'd prefer to be happy.

Properly done, the dirty aspects can make the beautiful shine with greater luster. Overcoming harsh realities can lift the spirit. Although I agree this is often not the focus of the darker side of writing.

Shawshank Redemption is full of gritty darkness. Yet it also shines with inspiration and stories of redemption - written by Stephen King.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I like gritty stories, and I like horror stories, provided they are well done. Neither of them leaves me depressed. I admit that I also like the sort of corny happy-ending story when it is well done. Whether the stories are happy or tragic, I find they don't usually have a substantial impact on my actual mood once I put them down. They're works of fiction. It would be weird to walk around all day either depressed or giddy over what I read. Wouldn't it?
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
I like gritty stories, and I like horror stories, provided they are well done. Neither of them leaves me depressed. I admit that I also like the sort of corny happy-ending story when it is well done. Whether the stories are happy or tragic, I find they don't usually have a substantial impact on my actual mood once I put them down. They're works of fiction. It would be weird to walk around all day either depressed or giddy over what I read. Wouldn't it?

Maybe I'm more emotionally impacted by fiction than the average person. If I'm feeling down or stressed, reading a good book or watching an uplifting movie improves my mode.

Again, I feel that one of the purposes of fiction is to transport the reader, both mentally and emotionally. If the writing doesn't do that, what's the point? And if it does, how can you not be affected?
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
Properly done, the dirty aspects can make the beautiful shine with greater luster. Overcoming harsh realities can lift the spirit. Although I agree this is often not the focus of the darker side of writing.

Shawshank Redemption is full of gritty darkness. Yet it also shines with inspiration and stories of redemption - written by Stephen King.

All I know is that, for the most part, reading King and GRRM leave me feeling down at the end. Perhaps there are some stories that didn't, but, for the most part, that's just the way it is (was?).
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
I know of Abercrombie but this is the first thing I've ever read of his, and I couldn't agree more. There's room for all types of stories in the fantasy genre. People complaint about grit is like people, who only like vanilla and strawberry complaining about that new flavor chocolate that's suddenly shown up. Or having an aneurism when the suddenly see the 101 flavors sign. They say I don't want more than two flavors. Who would ever want more than two flavors? Well, two flavors can get pretty boring for some.
 
Last edited:

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Again, I feel that one of the purposes of fiction is to transport the reader, both mentally and emotionally. If the writing doesn't do that, what's the point? And if it does, how can you not be affected?

It does, while I'm reading it. Similarly, a movie has that effect while I'm watching it. Every few are the works that continue to have any emotional effect once I put the book down, though there are plenty that I think about afterwards.

Actually, this distinction seems to separate, for example, horror fans from non-horror fans. Or at least, it seems to be one distinction. People I know who like horror books and movies tend to feel the tension or the 'scare' while in the middle of the work, but separate themselves from it once it is over. The people I know who don't like those things tend to continue to be affected, having nightmares or feeling down or whatever. Makes sense. If that was my reaction to those things, then I doubt I'd enjoy them.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
Actually, this distinction seems to separate, for example, horror fans from non-horror fans. Or at least, it seems to be one distinction. People I know who like horror books and movies tend to feel the tension or the 'scare' while in the middle of the work, but separate themselves from it once it is over. The people I know who don't like those things tend to continue to be affected, having nightmares or feeling down or whatever. Makes sense. If that was my reaction to those things, then I doubt I'd enjoy them.

Makes sense, and explains why I prefer not to read grit.

Just to be clear, I don't object to the presence of such; I just don't prefer to read it myself. If one likes that sort of thing, go for it.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Just to be clear, I don't object to the presence of such; I just don't prefer to read it myself. If one likes that sort of thing, go for it.

Oh yeah, I knew what you meant :) Likewise, I don't think everyone should like that sort of thing. There is a lot of variation in what people like and dislike, and how they react to certain things, which is as it should be. I enjoyed being scared by ghost stories from the time I was a little kid and my grandmother in Georgia would tell them to me. My daughter is the same way. Other family members, not so much. Viva la différence.
 
I've been thinking about this overnight, and I think my problem with the "gritty" books I've read is a worse version of my problem with Libertarian fiction. I never get a sense that there's anything the protagonists want other than money, sex, booze, or occasionally power, and it's never implied that there's anything they wouldn't do in order to obtain these things. The only reason to root for the protagonists over everyone else who wants the same things is that the protagonists are usually smarter.

P.S., in response to Penpilot: the analogy only applies if they sell "grownup" ice cream and "kid" ice cream, and you have to buy the "kid" ice cream to get pure chocolate. In and of itself, grit hasn't taken over, but a more general darkness of subject matter has become pervasive, crowding out the old style of adventure fantasy. (Admittedly, I'm part of the problem there . . .)
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
...money, sex, booze, or occasionally power, and it's never implied that there's anything they wouldn't do in order to obtain these things.
A partial list of some of the strongest motivators in the human condition, based on our reality.

Moral dilemmas and blurred lines of right and wrong, dependent on a character's viewpoint, are often central to these story types. This is also the way of our real world. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Our world is colored by the eye of the beholder with few absolutes.

In most gritty stories I've read, these are the types of drivers & obstacles that protagonists need to overcome, grow to understand, or transcend.
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
P.S., in response to Penpilot: the analogy only applies if they sell "grownup" ice cream and "kid" ice cream, and you have to buy the "kid" ice cream to get pure chocolate. In and of itself, grit hasn't taken over, but a more general darkness of subject matter has become pervasive, crowding out the old style of adventure fantasy. (Admittedly, I'm part of the problem there . . .)

Correct me if I'm not interpreting your response correctly. But I think if you can't find enough of the flavor that you like, maybe you're not looking in the right places, or unlike me, you devour books by the boat load and there isn't much that you haven't read.

I usually never have trouble finding something that fits my mood at the moment, whether it's dark, light, or some shade between. If the new stuff is too dark, why not look back at some of the older stuff out there and search that out. Like others have said, the darkness prevalent in current works is pendulum swing in the opposite direction of the lightness of earlier works. It's a shift balancing things out. I have no doubt sooner or later the pendulum will swing back the other way in response to the plentiful darkness.
 

Alex97

Troubadour
It's good that the choice exists. I can't understand why people would object to grit's existence. If you don't like it, don't read it.

I enjoy a mix of the two; they both serve a purpose. I might be over generalizing here, but to me gritty fiction is more of a reflection of the harder truths in life as opposed to the more classic fantasy which often serves as a from of escapism. I like reading both, but I prefer writing grittier fiction.

I don't think grittier fiction necessarily means every character should be evil, money grabbing, rapist villains. Characters should certainly have to face these temptations as part of the story. The lack of an obvious good or evil sides is another thing that I enjoy about gritty fantasy. In GRMM's novels there are a lot of nasty characters, but there are also those the author roots for (who usually end up snuffing it...)
 
I can take grit in moderation, but I need some hope. ASOIAF is about as much as I can take; everyone's mean and cruel all the time for no apparent reason, even when it makes no sense to do so. In fact as cruel as everyone is, it's implausible that the world would have survived as long as it has appeared to.

That said, it's still crackerjack writing, and I'm invested in it now, so I guess I'm in it for the long haul. At least there's only two more books to go; ASOIAF is a mere spring chicken compared to wading through the colossal Wheel of Time. (Which I just finished a couple of weeks ago.)
 
Top