A lack of cursing

[Incanus]

My WIP novel is not YA, but neither is it strictly for adults. It is for readers of what I might call classic action/adventure fantasy, first and foremost (with the emphasis more on the adventure side of things). There are bits of what might be considered graphic violence. There is something of a horror/supernatural element. And there is a romantic element, though that is largely in the background.

However, so far, I haven’t had any of my characters use common curse words (you know the ones–the ‘s’ and ‘f’ words, and their nearly endless variations and permutations). But they do occasionally use custom curse phrases, often based on their various gods or whatnot. On the other hand, I believe I’ve had some of them say ‘damn’ a few times.

My questions, then, are: would this lack be noticeable? Are modern epic-type fantasies using these kinds of curse words more and more? Or is it more of a “some do, some don’t” kind of thing, and I don’t need to worry about it one way or the other?

 

[Russ]

A lack of modern curse words would not trouble me in the least as long as the book is not set in the modern world.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I would say curse words are completely optional. To me this goes for any genre. In general, it's all a matter of taste. I hear and say the words enough without reading them all over too, heh heh.

 

[Svrtnsse]

My questions, then, are: would this lack be noticeable? Are modern epic-type fantasies using these kinds of curse words more and more? Or is it more of a “some do, some don’t” kind of thing, and I don’t need to worry about it one way or the other?

To answer your question. You don't need to worry about it. Just use a language you're comfortable with and you will surely be fine.

...and to go on from there, I'll refer to my own works...

I use the F-word once in my first novel, and I'll probably remove it because it feels a bit out of place. That doesn't mean my characters don't curse or use expletives, they just use different ones. Instead of the F-words I use the word stupid to convey that kind of emphasis.

Examples:

Ali’ast sighed and threw his arms in the air. “I don’t stupid know. I didn’t think about it.”

“Yes. I noticed.” She sighed. A good hit it had been too. “Now stand down. It’s my stupid sister. She gets to hit me if she wants to.”

“Yes!” Toini slammed her hand into the table. “I'm the stupid commanding officer and half my squad is stupid dead! Okay? Can you stop interrupting me?”

“I'm the stupid commander and I go fall down in a hole in the ground and my entire squad gets wiped out by hostiles and I get saved by a stupid elf like some bleeding storybook princess.”

"That's not the stupid point! He could be the Cardinal of Knysvian for all I care. He's not coming in here waving his stupid gun around again. Is that clear?"

Taken out of context, and each on their own, these quotes would probably come across as a bit silly or lame. I'm gambling on that it will work in the context of the story though. The reader will be aware of how the word is used and they'll learn to accept it as a peculiarity of the setting.

I don't know for sure that it will work like that, but I'm confident enough in it that I'll keep at it for the time being.

 

[thedarknessrising]

For me, it doesn't particularly matter if a story includes cursing. Personally, I include it, because I'm targeting a slightly older audience. But if I were to pick up a fantasy novel and find that there's no swearing in it, I wouldn't even give it a second thought.

 

[Velka]

I wouldn't notice a lack of swearing. I would notice the inclusion of swearing if it seemed out of place or there for shock value.

 

[Svrtnsse]

On a completely unrelated note, I find it weirdly ironic that people are trying to keep curse words out of YA books, but feel it's okay to include it in books for older audiences. To me, using curses to emphasise a point feels a bit crude.

There's no way people who read YA novels haven't come across curses before or will be shocked/damaged from reading them. On the contrary, they probably think it's cool or edgy and it'll be a selling point (kind of like Parental Advisory stickers on records with explicit lyrics).

I'm thinking older, more mature readers will be over that kind of thing though. They'll be able to enjoy and appreciate a more subtle and nuanced language, that doesn't rely on cursing to get its point across.

Ironically, this may not jive very well with what I wrote in my previous post a few minutes ago. But I guess I'll have to live with contradicting myself like that.

 

[AndrewLowe]

I would say (so long as it's not set in the post-1950s on Earth), either use real curse words or don't use them at all. I remember be immensely bothered by how many times Robert Jordan used phrases like "burn me", "burn you", and "motherburning burneater" in the Wheel of Time (I may have made up that last one). It's all about moderation... In my first manuscript probably 1 in ever 700 words was f***. It seemed a bit excessive, but when I considered that my characters were 18-26 year olds in modern Europe, it almost seemed too light.

I would just urge you away from using custom phrases. Still, that's just my 2 cents. YA isn't really my thing, but if you are gearing towards that audience (which I know you aren't necessarily) than by all means censor the phrases. But in all reality, 12 year old boys and girls swear more than Lev Grossman or George R.R. Martin.

On the other hand, here's an opposing opinion: Why There's No Profanity in My Books — Mark Henshaw

I personally respect his opinion for his own writing; that's how he sees people in the world. I'm more of a cynic, so I'll continue on with my 'weak writing.'

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

...would this lack be noticeable?

Probably not. I don't think I've ever read any book and thought, "Why aren't these characters swearing?"

Are modern epic-type fantasies using these kinds of curse words more and more? Or is it more of a “some do, some don’t” kind of thing, and I don’t need to worry about it one way or the other?

It's a matter of, "some do, some don't". If your Joe Abercrombie your characters cuss worse than drunken sailors. If your Pat Rothfuss, not so much.

I'll pose some questions back to you.

Do YOU feel like your characters need to swear?

Do YOU notice a lack of cussing?

If you answered either of the above, "Yes", then swearing is probably needed. Go with your gut.

 

[Geo]

When I think about the YA books (fantasy and otherwise) I have read recently, I can't even remember if the authors used or not curse words, I think that means that it is not noticeable, at least not for me.

What I do remember about two books in particular is that the author used non-curse words as curse words, with his characters getting angry and reacting badly to such words... for me it was a very effective way of making his world real, transmitting anger and other curse-related emotions, while keep it clean for marketing and other purposes.

 

[Gryphos]

On the other hand, here's an opposing opinion: Why There's No Profanity in My Books — Mark Henshaw

Wow, that guy can **** off back to Pleasantville.

Back to the point, the key thing is really just to write the language you're comfortable with. If you're not comfortable with cursing, you'll gain nothing from forcing it into your work. Would a lack of cursing be noticeable? If it's a secondary world, absolutely not.

 

[thedarknessrising]

Wow, that guy can **** off back to Pleasantville.

Back to the point, the key thing is really just to write the language you're comfortable with. If you're not comfortable with cursing, you'll gain nothing from forcing it into your work. Would a lack of cursing be noticeable? If it's a secondary world, absolutely not.

Man that article was kinda cringe worthy. He doesn't write profanity because he wasn't raised to talk that way? Well, neither was I! When I first started writing all the way back in middle school, I tried to keep my books squeaky clean. But then I realized it wasn't working, especially since I was trying to write James Bond-esque novels.

I actually asked my dad if I would be allowed to incorporate swear words in my writing. You know what he told me? "I don't see why not. If you're trying to write a book, you should keep it as accurate as possible. People use those words all the time in real life. Just don't go too overboard with it, and I don't want to ever catch you using those words in real life."

Now, of course, fantasy worlds don't have to be as accurate as possible. We're allowed to do whatever we want. I choose to include swears because it makes characters a little more relatable.

Mark Henshaw needs to get off his high horse.

 

[Heliotrope]

A book that comes to mind for me is the Sword of truth series. There is some graphic stuff in there, even some borderline BDSM and bestiality and yet no swearing at all. That never bothered me at all when I read it and I never missed it. He sort of made up curse words that felt in place for the world, but never used common curses.

 

[AndrewLowe]

I'm glad you guys saw the irony in that link XD

 

[Chilari]

I'm of the view that if a line of dialogue feels like it should have swearing in, it should. People swear in real life all the time. I do. I don't see why my characters shouldn't.

I don't like using "Deity's Symbolic Weapon or Feature" as swear words where a simple four letter word - with just one syllable - effectively conveys the desired meaning while maintaining the flow. I find those kinds of swearing alternatives to be clunky and obtrusive.

I'm also generally not a fan of making up new words the reader has to learn for the sake of the book when there are existing words available. That's not just swearwords either, that's any word. The old "calling a rabbit a smerp" thing. Fine, if it's a concept for which there's no easy equivalent in English, by all means make up a word, ideally one that's easy to pronounce. But don't just create a bunch of words where smerp = rabbit and se'nday = week and bloop = damn.

If when I finish the book I feel I've overdone the swearing I can always go back and change a few words to less offensive alternatives, like drat or crud, and leave the real swear words where they have the most impact. But I'm not going to censor myself or edit myself as I go along.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I hate to say it but I mostly agree with the article, although I have no personal issue with profanity... and if my mom were still alive? heh heh. Yeah. I wouldn't get too blue at least. Is it weak writing? Maybe maybe not, that's a case by case basis, but I suspect it tends in that direction. Realistic dialogue? Maybe, sure, but is it useful? Profanity lacks punch when used over and over. This is a given. Highly selective use might give dialogue punch but only if used judiciously to make it stand out. If you want a point in a book for FU! to stand out, it would be best not to use F at all throughout the book.

Pure marketing, he is right. Almost nobody's gonna give a sh!! if you don't use profanity, while even some agents/publishers are going to be turned off immediately by a writing sample dripping with it. And does profanity make any writing better? Again I think he's right at least in most instances, particularly in profanity heavy works where any use loses all emphasis. It would be like knowing me and my mom... I said F? Meh, no biggie, if she said it? Look out, you know something just hit the fan hard, probably a bomb, not just sh!!, heh heh.

I've contemplated a character with a salty voice, and doing so in the midst of otherwise only mild profanity, would make that character stand out.

 

[Incanus]

Thanks for all the responses. It helps.

Basically, the responses were about what I would have expected. And I largely agree.

For myself, I think, given the tone of my writings, the swear words would stick out a little--as in, not in a good way. Come revision time, I can always add them in without too much trouble.

But I do have a reason for trying to figure this sort of thing out now: I plan on writing at least a few books/series in the world I have. I would like to establish as many stylistic precedents as I can at this point, even if this first novel never sees the light of day.

That said, the reasons for not using curse words in fiction given in that article are, in my view, pretty weak.

 

[CrystalCHTriple]

I found that article annoying. Not cringe worthy or raged inducing, just annoying. Like... hella mad fails at trying to edify me.

If one's reason to refuse writing a particular way is because of the way they were raised, I will question their ability to write about things in opposition to the way they were raised or about people of different backgrounds, should they attempt to do so; and excessive profanity being a crutch is about as valid as an assertion that refusing to use profanity is a crutch to avoid diverse characterization and settings, which is to say not at all.

A setting that is discomforting for middle class families (more upper) will have excessive profanity, and those who announce their disdain of it will stand out. That is not lazy. That provides — demands — an opportunity to provide another perspective, perhaps a challenging and/or informing one, like some privileged social worker/teacher/just plain anomaly who thinks cursing is a sign of a weak mind being made aware of the conditions of a foul mouthed individual who has not yet attempted suicide and/or is relatively stable and thus concludes they are anything but weak in mind, but I digress.

Likewise, a foul mouthed parvenu or mercenary could provide insight into the lives of proper people, pointing out the contradictions in their selective outrage and all other manner of false decorum they would otherwise not notice.

The bit about politeness is... interesting. Depending on who you ask, society has become more civil, or too civil. I am a borderline misanthrope who finds it difficult to believe humans can truly value each other, so I am not sure if I am the right person to opine on their interpersonal dynamics, but I doubt consideration is indirectly proportional to the frequency of profane utterances.

To address the concern of this thread, a lack of cursing could be noticeable for various reasons. Some readers may just realize it, and some would look for it. It could also be noticeable if the setting is gritty yet everyone speaks with consideration. It short, it depends.

 

[Tom]

I think that if a situation calls for profanity, use it. It's becoming more acceptable in fiction anyways--which I am excited about. It's nice to finally have characters who are free to sound like people I would converse with on a daily basis.

The first time I read a modern YA book ('modern' as in 'fresh off the freaking presses') I was shocked at the frequent occurrence of the word f**k. When I started reading YA back in the day, you would find nothing like that in any YA book. There might be some tame swear words, but they'd never drop the Big Ones. After I got over my culture shock, I started enjoying it. The characters sounded like actual young adults. They sounded more authentic, and because of that I related to them better than I would have if they'd sounded like they were in a PG movie.

I was not raised to swear, yet here I am. In my opinion, trying to cut out profanity is an ineffective practice. Advocates of it claim it increases your vocabulary because you're not using the same couple words to express yourself, but that's a disingenuous argument. Would you use a synonym when there's another word which perfectly suits the effect you're trying for? Trying to replace swear words with substitutes is like that. It just doesn't have the same impact, the same significance.

Plus it'd be really stupid to have all your hard-boiled mercenaries going around saying "gosh darn it" and "fudge".

 

[Chessie]

I was totally raised to swear and do so on a regular basis which drives my husband nuts (he gets on my case about it all the time). However, there's hardly any swearing in my stories. Occasionally the s or a couple b words but maybe 1 or so a book. I rather keep curse words to a minimum out of respect for the readers. There are other ways of expressing a character's emotions without curse words and I rarely find the need to use them when I write.

Okay, so I've admitted to speaking like a sailor and even I was jarred/annoyed by one urban fantasy book that had a buttload of swearing. I mean, they were piled on. I'll never read her work again for that among other reasons (graphic sex scenes that had no relation to the plot, etc). See, I don't want readers to come away from my stories with a bad taste for my language. Just my 2 cents.