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Are "Mechanized Carriages" Too Advanced for a Flintlock Fantasy?

In developing ideas for my flintlock fantasy setting, I've been weighing the possibilities of "mechanized carriages" being a thing. Steam engines and steam powered ships are coming into the fore, but I've been thinking that land-based vehicles with engines should also be something I should include. While some would be steam powered, I think that most mechanized carriages would actually be moved by sterling engines. Here's a video explaining the principles of such engines.

Since the cutoff date for most forms of technology that I'm adopting into my setting is about 1850 (with some exceptions,) sterling engines are viable since they were invented in 1816. The way they would work in my setting would be that magic would provide the heat/cold effects needed to cause the air to expand and contract in the pistons. Of course, such engines would be costly, so mechanized carriages would not be in widespread use, but the sight of one traveling down the road would not be unprecedented for most people, especially if they become a status symbol for the wealthy to possess. In other words, seeing a mechanized carriage would usually mean seeing a member of the aristocrat or wealthy gentry. As for how these vehicles would look, I think the electric runabouts that were used in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries would be a good starting point. Here are a few examples:

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As you can see, their designs would still be very much in line with a carriage, buggy, cart, etc., because that is the only point of reference most designers would have as a basis. These vehicles are a new frontier but people wouldn't want a design that's too great of a departure from what is familiar to them, ie, animal drawn vehicles. Additionally, even though they could go faster than a horse drawn vehicle, that doesn't mean people would drive them that much faster in most places due to the design of the roads and the regular carriages and wagons they'd encounter on the roads. Further, I don't see the engines powering them being too powerful, so most would have a top speed of about 20-30 mph, except for those owned by the exceptionally wealthy.

I feel that vehicles like this are viable in my setting, though I am concerned that they might not gel for some readers, since the overall aesthetic is Baroque while runabouts are associated with the late Victorian and Edwardian eras. However, I also feel that they make sense. For starters, if I have steam powered ships, it's logical that people are going to be trying to make steam powered vehicles. Since the sterling engine was conceived in 1816, it's also logical that someone would come up with it in my setting. Combine that with a magical heating and cooling system, and the sterling engine becomes quite viable, more than it was historically and presently. (Seriously, we've had this technology for over 200 years and it's still largely ignored!)

The largest limitations would be the magical power source. Power Gems that store large amounts of Aethyr are not cheap, but synthetic Power Cores (basically artificial Power Gems) are becoming easier to synthesize. That said, the larger and heavier the vehicle, the more juice your going to need to power the heating/cooling systems that make the pistons work, which means a larger and more expensive Power Core. This, combined with the precisely shaped components of the engine, would put a big limit on how large these vehicles would be for most people. The super wealthy could go with a mechanized coach, complete with heated seats and magical shock absorbers, but most nobles and wealthy gentry could only afford a small mechanized carriage of the runabout variety. Even these would not be commonplace, but they also wouldn't be a rare sight.

In other words, they're a status symbol that all the well-to-do would seek to own in order to stay in vogue.

But, again, I am concerned that such vehicles might not gel with the overall aesthetic for some readers, so I'd like to get people's feedback on this. Do you think that magically powered sterling engines in runabouts are all right to include in a Baroque-style setting or do they seem too Victorian/Edwardian to feature? Let me know what you think. Also, if you do think I should include them, what are some other magical features these vehicles could have? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that, too.

Thank you in advance for any feedback you have!
 

Miles Lacey

Archmage

The London Steam Carriage was built in 1803 and gives a good idea of what was already around at the time period you're thinking of using.

However the French army used a Fardier à vapeur (steam wagon) as early as 1769 but the fact it was a tri-wheeled vehicle limited it's effectiveness. Perhaps a four wheeled version of this with magic crystals providing the heat needed to generate the steam needed to power the vehicle would work better.


As I see it the problem with the mechanised carriages you're thinking of using is that much of the steam engine technology to produce them did not exist in 1850. If you add a few refinements to what the French came up with or to the London Steam Carriage you could be onto something.

(Sorry, must head off to work so I will do another posting to expand on this.)
 
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From my POV, if you’re writing a flintlock fantasy then the short answer to your questions would be, yes, that technology would be too advanced.

How attached are you to earlier flintlock tech, and why would you want to mix it with mechanised carriages? Or could it be that you set your fantasy in a later industrialised time period?

The other short answer is, you can do whatever you want because it’s your fantasy story. It depends on how attached to being true to real world time periods you’re inspired by.
 
Nothing sounds jarringly advanced, and I think steamed powered vehicles, with the limits you provided, wouldn’t majorly impact a fantasy story where mechanization and steam energy is already in use. However, I think if you don’t establish those limitations in your story, you’ll have people wondering why there are still people riding horses.
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
This is the type of thing that would have me asking questions and not in a good way. Very unlikely someone could invents a working carriage and not figure out how to leave flintlock behind.

Id want to believe but i suspect i would not.
 
This is the type of thing that would have me asking questions and not in a good way. Very unlikely someone could invents a working carriage and not figure out how to leave flintlock behind.

Id want to believe but i suspect i would not.
Maybe I misunderstood the thread but if the genre is flintlock fantasy, doesn’t mean the OP is implying flintlock technology exists in the world?
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
I dont follow.

If you are calling it flintlock i expect that is their level of technology. So… to say… we invented a car but not quite figured out a better gun seems unlikely to me. Guns barely have any moving parts.
 
This is the type of thing that would have me asking questions and not in a good way. Very unlikely someone could invents a working carriage and not figure out how to leave flintlock behind.

Id want to believe but i suspect i would not.
I think I follow what you’re saying, as in you’d question why they’d have advanced technology in one area and not another.

The only thing with this is that we have advanced tech nowadays and we also still use technology (like blacksmithing) that’s been around for hundreds of years and has barely changed. You’d need a good reason though to have mechanised carriages and not have the rest of the world industrialised.
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
Just adding to it a little, but gun techonology is warfare. That is something that usually gets a lot of energy, and innovation. Cars....not as much. Car might even be something that comes from advances in military tech.

Which is all to say...I would be asking questions about such a world.

If the argument is, they have flintlocks, but also have more advanced weaponry, I'd ask why are you calling it flintlock fantasy?
 
Check out Cugnot's 1771 fardier à vapeur.
@mileslacey posted a picture of it.
ive got percussion caps not coming onto the scene until 1820 and it would take a long time for them to take over flintlock, it isn't like now when everybody throws away their iPhone 97 when the iPhone 98 comes out. Tech at that time had a pretty big overlap period.
Some kind of steam motorized carriage converted to your tech would be fine I think, as long as they were rare.
From what I can tell I would suggest considering pulling back that 1850 cutoff though. I think cartridge ammunition was starting to show up by then, or very close to it

Edit: mass manufacturing didn't really start until the industrial age, so a big limitation on some things would be how quickly they could be made.
Also, looking at it, I'd prefer a horse to that motorized carriage. It would be clumsy, finicky, not built for the roads that existed at the time... it isn't like as soon as people saw one of those they'd go sell Trigger. Cars didn't start to take over until Ford figured out how to build them fast and cheap around 1900.
 
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Queshire

Istar
I mean, if you count a renaissance style setting as part of flintlock fantasy then I could see a da vinci-esque clockwork carriage tick-tick-ticking along.
 
Nothing sounds jarringly advanced, and I think steamed powered vehicles, with the limits you provided, wouldn’t majorly impact a fantasy story where mechanization and steam energy is already in use. However, I think if you don’t establish those limitations in your story, you’ll have people wondering why there are still people riding horses.

I think the short answer to that these vehicles would be far too expensive for anyone but the wealthy to purchase. In other words, people are still using horses because horse are economic while mechanized carriages are not.
 
Check out Cugnot's 1771 fardier à vapeur.
@mileslacey posted a picture of it.
ive got percussion caps not coming onto the scene until 1820 and it would take a long time for them to take over flintlock, it isn't like now when everybody throws away their iPhone 97 when the iPhone 98 comes out. Tech at that time had a pretty big overlap period.
Some kind of steam motorized carriage converted to your tech would be fine I think, as long as they were rare.
From what I can tell I would suggest considering pulling back that 1850 cutoff though. I think cartridge ammunition was starting to show up by then, or very close to it

Edit: mass manufacturing didn't really start until the industrial age, so a big limitation on some things would be how quickly they could be made.
Also, looking at it, I'd prefer a horse to that motorized carriage. It would be clumsy, finicky, not built for the roads that existed at the time... it isn't like as soon as people saw one of those they'd go sell Trigger. Cars didn't start to take over until Ford figured out how to build them fast and cheap around 1900.

That's a good point. These vehicles would not be mass produced. You might have a company that manufactures a standardized model, sure, but it's not going to be able to make them in bulk. Another limiting factor is going to be the power source. Those cannot be made in bulk and most militaries are going to want the strongest one for their ships and magical cannons, so the ones available for a mechanized carriage won't be super powerful and will need time to recharge once it's spent. In other words, horse-drawn carriages might be more reliable in certain regards.
 
Just adding to it a little, but gun techonology is warfare. That is something that usually gets a lot of energy, and innovation. Cars....not as much. Car might even be something that comes from advances in military tech.

Which is all to say...I would be asking questions about such a world.

If the argument is, they have flintlocks, but also have more advanced weaponry, I'd ask why are you calling it flintlock fantasy?
My thinking is that they've figured out how to make steam engines to move ships, so experiments have been made with land-based mechanized vehicles. However, they haven't been able to make something that is strong enough and reliable enough for military applications, so they've instead become a status symbol for the wealthy. That's what drives their innovation: Conspicuous consumption. Being seen in a mechanized carriage is a way to flaunt your status because the common plebes could never hope to possess such a vehicle. Of course, if you're an aristocrat who want's to strut your stuff, it's not enough just to have one, you need one that's better than the model your rival has, so I can see them adding a bunch of silly bells and whistles that really don't make the vehicle better, just more novel.
 

Mad Swede

Auror
This is partly about how far they have worked out the technology, but it is much more about their ability to manufacture things with the tolerances needed to make it work. A steam engine to power a ship or pump water out of a mine isn't small, and you can get away with lower tolerances because the size of machine means that the power losses due to these intolerances don't matter very much. But for a small carriage the steam engine has to be much smaller and so the tolerances become finer and the engine harder to make.

In reality this was why people like Nicolas Cugnot, James Watt and Richard Trevithick couldn't build useful steam locomotives. Cugnot's road going engine (designed to pull cannons) weighed two and half tones empty, far more than most roads and bridges of the day could take, and had to stop every 15 minutes to raise steam. As engineers these men understood the principles and could work out how the engines should be built. But the technology to build the engines to the tolerances needed for success didn't exist.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
The only thing jarring to me was the use of the term Baroque for anything 19thc. That's 200 years off the mark.

As for the tech, nothing will be jarring if presented well by the author. Of course I mean not jarring *to me* and by "presented well" I mean according to my own standards. The next reader over will have a different reaction.

Write it. Get feedback. Adjust as you see fit.
 
This is partly about how far they have worked out the technology, but it is much more about their ability to manufacture things with the tolerances needed to make it work. A steam engine to power a ship or pump water out of a mine isn't small, and you can get away with lower tolerances because the size of machine means that the power losses due to these intolerances don't matter very much. But for a small carriage the steam engine has to be much smaller and so the tolerances become finer and the engine harder to make.

In reality this was why people like Nicolas Cugnot, James Watt and Richard Trevithick couldn't build useful steam locomotives. Cugnot's road going engine (designed to pull cannons) weighed two and half tones empty, far more than most roads and bridges of the day could take, and had to stop every 15 minutes to raise steam. As engineers these men understood the principles and could work out how the engines should be built. But the technology to build the engines to the tolerances needed for success didn't exist.

These wouldn't be steam engines, though, they'd be Sterling engines, so there's no boiler or steam pressure involved. And there have been experimental sterling car engines that have been built, so this idea is not without real world precedence:


Indeed, from what I've been able to gather, Sterling engines are subjected to much less wear and tear than steam or combustion engines. The primary issue is a reliable heat source, which, in my setting, would be achieved through magic. However, they may not be able to generate as much power as steam and combustion engines, so I don't know if they'd be viable for moving a large ship. Moving something the size of a runabout, however, seems quite viable to me.
 

Miles Lacey

Archmage
The Stirling engine had a big problem:

"The need for Stirling engines to run at very high temperatures to maximize power and efficiency exposed limitations in the materials of the day, and the few engines that were built in those early years suffered unacceptably frequent failures (albeit with far less disastrous consequences than boiler explosions). For example, the Dundee foundry engine was replaced by a steam engine after three hot cylinder failures in four years." - Wikipedia

If those issues relating to materials could be addressed then the Stirling engine would be feasible. It might also be worth looking at why the Stirling engine still isn't widely used except by the Swedish navy in some of its submarines and a few other applications. Also, keep in mind the importance of cost as a factor when looking at such things. If it requires a lot of repairs or if it costs too much to run the rich will ditch them, even if it is more efficient than a steam or internal combustion engine.
 
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