Comments on a rather undeveloped magic system...

[Cinder]

In my current WIP, magic is probably the most undeveloped part. I thought maybe if I explained it here, you good
scribes could comment/pick it apart so I can get it right.

Alright, so Sulrun (the world) is just one branch of a great tree holding many worlds on its arms, all created by an order or deities known as the Five. The Five, and their minor deities, control the world through the use of spectral beings known as Spirits. The spirits are numerous, but elusive, and very, very powerful. However, they are also extremely neutral, and take no part in the conflicts of Sulrun. They are purely responsible for ensuring the continuity of the world.

It is these Spirits that bring magic into the world. Their very work is magical, their very presence is magical. The way that lesser beings obtain magic is through manipulation and manifestation of the Spirits. Those who take the magic from Spirits are known as Consorts, whilst their art is known as Entelechy.

The Sileo, the race of knowledge, learnt how to consort with Spirits early in their history. However, Man discovered the secrets from the ruins of an ancient desert tribe, from which it spread across Sulrun like wildfire.

That's a brief (but I think needed) history of how magic came to be. Where I'm struggling is, how it actually works.

So, there are elemental spirits. Consorting with such allows powers that we're all familiar with; fire, ice, lightning, earth... Entelechy is, more than anything, a destructive force to Man. There are also healing spirits, and more macabre spirits, but they are all powerful. As I said, it is through consorting with the spirits that they take on a slice of their power, so to say.

But what I can't seem to work out is how the sentients actually consort with them. And what are the penalties for it? What are the penalties for the physical act of magic? I know that magic can't bring about an apocalypse, but where, and how, do I draw the line between what can and can't do?

The above issues, and others that are still to come, are causing my major headaches! Any help of any kind you can give me would be massively appreciated.

 

[Ravana]

Well, approach #1 is to simply not bother explaining how magic works. It's a pretty common one.

I hate that approach.

So.…

As far as how consorting works between sentients and spirits, the most direct way is probably to have the spirits handle the mechanics—which in a way amounts to not explaining it, but it's also pretty much necessary, in that the sentients don't have any power independent of the spirits, thus there really isn't much they can do about it by themselves.

So approach it from the top down: what is it about the spirits that makes them able, willing and/or obliged to donate power to lesser beings? Unless the gods mandated that they do so—and possibly even if they did—the spirits had to work out some sort of mechanism for interaction: ways to get their attention, ways to request desired effects, ways to convince or coerce them to provide the power, probably techniques (taught by the spirits) for how to handle and shape the power without destroying the mortal body. Once this was set up, in whatever distant past, anybody with the correct knowledge could take advantage of it.

One "in the beginning" example: originally, the gods didn't have as firm a control over the world as they do now; in particular there were enormous numbers of spirit beings, many of them inimical or opposed to the designs of the gods (remembered in later ages as "demons"). In order to win the primordial "war," they required additional allies and/or agents: mortals. But the mortals lacked the power to be much help, so the gods had the spirits form the initial links to mortals from which magic arose. (Possibly, the gods might have merely been the most powerful of the spirits—and barely that. Or maybe they weren't any more powerful, and it was winning the war that increased their power… or at least eliminated much of the opposition.) Once those links to mortals and the material world were strongly established, however, they proved to be irreversible—or at least could not be reversed without undesirable consequences to the gods and spirits that had established them in the first place.

That gives you one possible "why" for how the system began. Another "why," which can be used in addition to or instead of the preceding, is why the spirits should have been willing to donate bits of themselves in the first place. The foregoing story suggests one level of self-interest; another would be to ask "What does the spirit get out of it?" Especially in relation to their continuing to do so. A coercive situation will do… but a better one is for the spirits to be doing their thing because they profit from it in some way. In other words, mortals have to bribe them.

Consider the relationship between matter and energy in physics: a little matter can release a whole lot of energy when annihilated. So you can have this kind of relationship: mortals can't take advantage of the energy inherent in annihilating matter—they don't know how to, and haven't the capability. Spirits can… and more importantly, from the mortal point of view, they can provide specific forms of energy—a lightning bolt, say—rather than an uncontained, undirected radial burst of charged particles and gamma rays. But the spirits, for some reason (probably because they aren't material beings) can't simply grab bits of free matter whenever they feel like it: they require being connected to it by some material agency. So when you want a lightning bolt, you call on the proper spirit, fill it in on what you want, then provide the bridging link it requires to the mundane world and give it an appropriate piece of matter for it to "feed" on… an offering. It annihilates the matter, absorbs the energy, and uses part of it to fulfill your request… and the balance for its own purposes. Everybody profits. Well, except for the people on the other end of the lightning bolt, perhaps.

The bridging link can be explained fairly simply—since sentient mortals are part spirit (and, presumably, the rest of the world is not). The bond of spirit to matter in mortals is what the spirits themselves lack; they can, however, take advantage of it when provided by willing others.

This also gives you a way to "draw the line" on what magic can do: potentially, it can do anything at all—but! But the bigger the effect, the more matter that needs to be sacrificed; and mortals, who are the ones providing the link, can only handle so much power flowing through them (in either direction) at one time without themselves being burnt up or consumed. How much one can handle will increase with practice, but there will still be limits beyond which a mortal cannot go. What these are, you can then set as you like.

Another "price" might be that providing the link and directing the power itself requires energy… which can't come from the spirit (you're providing the link, and its specific powers probably aren't of much use to your body), and can't come from the matter being sacrificed (you don't have the spirit's ability to handle it). The result is that any magical activity imposes a certain drain on the magician, which of course becomes greater the more power he tries to handle. Most of the time, this will be nothing more than slight fatigue… because most of the time, the magician won't be pushing his limits. The greater the power, though, the more the magician consumes his own resources—that is, his body. This manifests in hunger and thirst, as the body needs to replenish itself; near the limits, he starts losing weight as this noticeably consumes his body. Push too far, and the body's resources are exhausted… or the fatigue causes the power to escape control and create unintended consequences.

That's one starting point, at any rate.

 

[Cinder]

That's incredible! I think I love you.

Some questions though:

- How mobile would this magic be? If a Consort needs to offer to the spirit every time he performs a "spell", it suggests that he needs to locate the spirit, offer something, then return to where he desires the magic to surface. And when you remember that there was, at some point in history, a war between the magical and the non, that lessens the drama of any battles that would have occurred if the Consorts were forced to retreat every five minutes to perform a spell. I was thinking that perhaps one incident of consorting would result in a permanent link between mortal and spirit?

- And what could these offerings be? You're suggesting "a little matter." Does that equate to a physical object, like a flower or a sword or even a sentient? Perhaps each Spirit, should it want to co-operate at all, wants a different thing before it offers power. However, what is it about the object that makes the Spirit desire it? Do you mean that it is the energy released from the matter that somehow nourishes the spirit?

Everything else makes perfect sense. It adds a whole new dimension to the WIP, so a massive thank you!

 

[SeverinR]

Basically, the full spectrum,
Don't explain anything, or explain everything, I think both are the extreme.

First, I recomend, even if you never tell the reader, you know the limits to magic. It keeps you honest, and its easier to know what would happen if_____.
When you have "rules" there is reason to do something, and why something won't work.
Why a "magic bullet" can't kill all enemies.
If you have set rules, it will keep you from accidently changing the "rules" later(like in book three).

LIke any world building, you can be very general or extremely specific. Like a beetle is green with large wings versus a green beetle that breathes 45 times a minute, it wings speed is... (etc)
But magic is power, and power can be abused (by characters or authors.)

Basically, for my magic, I looked at how powerful magic should be in relation to the world. The more powerful a being that wields the magic, the more chance he/she or it will conquer the world, or a group of wizards will control the world, with the non-magic being slaves to the whim of the mages.

My magic is deadly, but a sword can usually hit faster then casting the magic. Thus warriors can still beat a mage. A mage might be able to wipe out an attacking force, but with planning the wizard could be killed.(Attack from multiple directions at the same time.)

There has to be some balance to power. Why doesn't magic rule the world? Why have the slaves not killed mages off while young to prevent the overbearing power?

I have a triad of magic. Religious, arcane, and mental. Each one has strengths, each one has weaknesses.

One possible limitation would be magic items needed to use magic, only so much can be taken to battle, and can be made ready so quickly. If a magic required a stone alter, it would be difficult to transport it into a field enviroment.
Example: Use the oak wand for _____, the Oak staff for _______, The ironwood wand for_____, a crystal rod for wonderous lights, Place various herbs in line to cast....
Finding the right piece for the right magic would be difficult under the stress of charging armies, or dodging arrows.

Just some thoughts for you to consider.

 

[BeigePalladin]

hmmm, well you have spirits as the source, so we need a reason why they want to give power.

the method Ravana mentioned - about a war in the past - would work for a reason in the past, but why would they keep doing so? If I may mak a suggestion, based on something simmilar that I think might work well, Sensation; effectivly, you could have the spirits be unable to feel or experiance something themselves, but be able to share the senses and experiances of their consorts whilst bonded, might provide a good reason for the continued bond.

as for the mentioned "finding a spirit", perhaps there are some spirits that are capable of bonding with a consort for longer periods of time, remaining linked whilst the link is held - and a consorts strength measured in the number of spirirts they can call in this way? it would potentially

as for a restraining bolt, mayhaps make each spirit (since there are so many) be responsible for one task, and what spell you get from them link only to that one task, thus each consort would likely be highly specalized and less versatile in power, and mayhaps you'd need a large number of spirits to perform bigger feats (eg 1 heat spirit could light a fire, but you'd need more than one for an inferno). It could also be possible that whilst bonded the spirits influence the actions of the consort - you mentioned they were neutral, not unwillful, and mayhaps have factions emerged from sharing the senses of mortals if you do use this suggestion? - thus meaning someone has to curb their power for fear of loosing themselves and becoming a puppet, thus giving a form of personal limit?


as for an object cost, thats more up to you about what you feel the spell would be worth.

you also mention that constors are people who take power, which leads me to ask; are there people who share power, rather than take it? a more neutral, less risky path perhaps, small effects for a smaller cost. looked down upon as a paupers art by consorts?

 

[Ravana]

That's incredible! I think I love you.

Quite welcome.

- How mobile would this magic be? If a Consort needs to offer to the spirit every time he performs a "spell", it suggests that he needs to locate the spirit, offer something, then return to where he desires the magic to surface. And when you remember that there was, at some point in history, a war between the magical and the non, that lessens the drama of any battles that would have occurred if the Consorts were forced to retreat every five minutes to perform a spell. I was thinking that perhaps one incident of consorting would result in a permanent link between mortal and spirit?

That's pretty much what I had in mind. It might be extremely difficult to attract a spirit initially: perhaps it can only be done in a certain spot for each spirit (a place it "listens" for calls from), or requires an elaborate ritual (as with the location, something the spirit has attuned itself to hear), or it requires someone already connected to the spirit to put you in touch (in my scenario, for instance, this would have been the gods initially–for that matter, it might still require getting a "god" to put you in touch with a spirit: this may or may not put severe restrictions on who can become a Consort of what kind of spirit, depending on how the gods feel about things, but you might find this desirable). Once you do, and as long as you don't offend the spirit in the process (by not offering a sufficient sacrifice, or maybe just not being polite enough), the spirit sets up a communication channel from its own end, by which it can hear you when you call on it. Depending on whether a Consort can call on more than one spirit, or one type of spirit, it might be possible that the first spirit could put him in touch with others… at least others it is willing to work with.

The calling itself, even by established Consorts, may not be as simple as willing it: how difficult it is will help keep some control over what the Consorts can do in a hurry. It may become easier/faster with practice, or the Consort might create an additional material link (i.e. "magic item") that assists the call: a crystal, a ring, whatever. Perhaps the spirit instructs and aids the Consort in this, if the Consort has been reliable and generous enough in past dealings. The item could also form a permanent link of its own–the spirit invests a bit of itself in the item–allowing the Consort to draw small amounts of power from the spirit without having to go to the trouble of calling it up each time… and as long as the Consort continues to "pay up" appropriately when he has the opportunity. So, say, a ring linked to a lightning spirit might be able to discharge shocks with a touch, or taser a target at short range, maybe throw a decent-sized bolt of lightning into a crowd; if the Consort wants to call wholesale destruction down from the heavens, he's going to need to put in a special request.

Or, as you say, the link could be directly to the Consort, allowing a similar range of abilities. The only reason I'd be wary of this is because, as I've set it up, the spirit is responsible for managing the energy and shaping the effect the Consort wants; take this away and you might risk losing some of the logic of the system. (Though you might find your own work-around here: don't need to do it exactly as I've laid it out.… ) The enchanted items work better in my view because they are "programmed," if you like, to produce specific effects–and only those: the spirit is still "in control," because it has imbedded its control into the item. Of course, you might also say it can do this with the Consort… which might allow for some interesting "prices" to be paid, depending on just how much a spirit is able to alter a Consort's being before unfortunate side-effects come into play. And how good it is at doing so: some powerful and otherwise intriguing spirits might not have a lot of practice in modifying mortals.…

Either of these allows magic to do "something" on the fly, without it being able to do "anything." Note too that as long as the Consort is "in good standing"–he does make appropriate offerings from time to time–the spirit might be willing to advance power "on credit," with the understanding that it will be made up by future offerings, so, in a pinch, the Consort might need only to place the call, without going to all the trouble of bargaining the specifics of the spell and presenting the offering at that particular moment. (Or the Consort might even be able to build up a positive account balance in advance.) The more generous the Consort, the more likely this will happen (and the more he'll be able to draw on); getting heavily into arrears in offerings might see his abilities suspended until he pays up. Or some other unpleasantry, if it is sufficiently offended.

- And what could these offerings be? You're suggesting "a little matter." Does that equate to a physical object, like a flower or a sword or even a sentient? Perhaps each Spirit, should it want to co-operate at all, wants a different thing before it offers power. However, what is it about the object that makes the Spirit desire it? Do you mean that it is the energy released from the matter that somehow nourishes the spirit?

Whatever you want them to be. A physical object was what I had in mind, yes: at the most basic level of the concept, this could be anything, since any matter could be transformed into energy. The E=mc^2 formula means that it doesn't take much matter to generate a whole lot of energy–though you hardly need to be precise on how much: any "extra" is taken up by the spirit anyway. The matter doesn't need to be completely converted, either: perhaps only the molecular bonding energy is taken up (though this is far less than the total available, so it may not be sufficient), or perhaps the spirit fissions more complex atoms into much simpler ones and takes up the difference–going from gold to carbon would allow for tremendous release, for example–leaving behind a pile of dust in either case.

It could be more specific: certain spirits might only be able to make use of certain types of matter, or all spirits might only be able to make use of certain types, or each spirit (or type) has its own preferences… don't try attracting a fire spirit with a bowl of water, for example. Perhaps it has to be living matter–say, there's a little "spirit" in everything that lives, not just sentients; perhaps it's this that allows the spirit to take advantage of it. The more "spirit" present, the more desirable it is: sacrificing a plant may be adequate for some, while others may require (from personal preference) animals, or even sentients (which can explain why certain spirits of the more powerful and/or greedier sort demand human sacrifices). That may or may not complicate the account of why the spirit needs a Consort to release this energy, depending on how you look at it. On the one hand, it seems as though the spirit ought to be able to do so on its own, with any living matter, if it's the spirit energy of the Consort that allows the bridge. On the other, perhaps the bridge can only be completed by a willing materially-bound spirit, and non-sentient living beings cannot give their "consent" this way–that is, the spirit energy is present in organic matter, but the link requires a sentient mind and an act of volition.

If you want to broaden it a bit, the donation could, at least in some circumstances, be something that has "acquired" tiny bits of spirit–that is, something with its own "aura" of sorts, courtesy of being important to mortal beings: thus, a newly-forged sword may be of little use, but an heirloom would be another story, as might be a weapon that has been used to kill before. This sort of thing might be an extremely rare exception to the rule: it probably should not be easy for base matter to acquire a significant spiritual tinge. If a spirit normally prefers a donation of metal, a dagger used for hundreds of sacrifices might be very much in demand–possibly but not necessarily human sacrifices: if all organic matter has some spirit, animals just power it up more slowly. This also gives a reason to perform sacrifices that don't go to the spirits directly, if you want one: the Consort needs to power up the item if he expects to need a really big spell some day. "Important" doesn't need to mean living sacrifices: it could be that as long as the item is important to the Consort (or anybody) in some meaningful way, it will work. In other words, it isn't a "sacrifice" unless you're actually parting with something you'd normally prefer not to… or at least that someone would prefer not to: some flowers stolen from a temple garden, for instance. Any item that's already "magical"–imbued with power derived from a spirit–would likely be acceptable, even if you don't go this route otherwise. Possibly more acceptable if it was powered by the same spirit, or at least the same type of spirit. ("Hundreds of years ago, a talisman was created for the Consort Diliman of Neverwhere. I wish to have its power returned to me." Instant quest. With an interesting question at the end, depending on whether the current Consort decides he's better off keeping the powerful item rather than returning it.…)

In any event, yes, what makes it "desirable" is that this is how the spirit "feeds," and/or increases its own level of power. You might come up with some other, or additional, motivation the spirits have; that one is just the most basic, and it allows for a nice, closed system: you can't get something for nothing. Not as a Consort, not even as a spirit.

Everything else makes perfect sense. It adds a whole new dimension to the WIP, so a massive thank you!

Glad to be of assistance.

 

[Ravana]

you also mention that constors are people who take power, which leads me to ask; are there people who share power, rather than take it? a more neutral, less risky path perhaps, small effects for a smaller cost. looked down upon as a paupers art by consorts?

That had crossed my mind as well. I omitted comment on it for space considerations, and because I wasn't sure what you intended by "take."

Perhaps Consorts are people who don't "take" the energy, but offer fair trade for it (the name suggests a benign relationship to me)… but there are others who do "take" it? Not sure how well that would fit the rest of my account, but I'm sure there are ways to explain it: you'd need for it to be possible for the "takers" to create a link by compulsion, or some obligation on the spirit's part that can be taken advantage of, and then to be able to draw power on demand without providing the normally expected offering. The magic items I mentioned might be one method of doing this… and they'd allow anybody, not just Consorts, access to magical abilities, if possibly from a very limited set, simply by picking up the item. (Which, traditionally for fantasy, is often what magic items end up doing. ) They'd also provide the spirits considerable motivation for seeing the items recovered and returned to themselves, or at least to "appropriate" hands.

The relationship could actually be the reverse of the one BeigePalladin suggests: being a Consort is the less risky path—and potentially the more powerful one, as the spirits are more willing to cooperate here—but the "takers" don't need to give up as much for their abilities… at least not until the spirit finds a way to collect on accounts due. This could help explain a slide into "evil": after a while, the taker discovers that he needs to make payments—in huge lump sums—in order to save his own skin.