Cross-bolt to the throat - Survivable?

[Dan]

Hi,

I have a scene in which a mounted man-at-arms is shot in the throat with a crossbow bolt from a distance of about thirty-meters, and from at an angle of about eighty-degrees. (The rebel will be to his left)

The man-at-arms will be wearing a mail coif (Covering his neck), A leather Gambeson, and on-top of that a mail.

Now my question is; could a sharpened and fire-hardened wooden cross-bolt (No iron head) penetrate mail, and leather as well as penetrating a humans throat. If so, would the chances of the wood splintering upon impact against the mail, and/ or leather be very likely (It has a fire-hardened point). And lastly would an experienced soldier from the period of about 1200 - 1400 have had the experience to pull out the cross-bolt, or the splinters, and to apply pressure to the would with a clean (or relatively clean) cloth?

I should just add in that I don't want this soldier to die. In fact in the chapter he is treated by two men, his coif is taken off and a cloth is wrapped around his neck, with another bit of cloth being used to stem the bleeding, and then the men lift him onto a horse and prepare to ride off before the rebels attack them again. I really don't know if this sounds believable though.

He could die later on if it is impossible to survive such a thing. I know there are jugular veins, and all other manners of vital body parts in that area.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Tricky. The neck is a very important part of the body with both the jugular and the airways located fairly centrally. In addition to that the spine runs through it as well. My thought would be that if any part of the crossbow bolt penetrated the airways or tore the jugular he's fairly much a goner. Putting pressure on the jugular wouldn't be enough to stopthe bleeding. And if it penetrated the cervical spine but missedthe rest, he'd be paralysed, and probably stop breathing. So the bolt has to miss all of that vital stuff.

Now for the good stuff. The chain coif is usually several layers of chain as I understand it, folded down like a polo neck shirt. If the bolts of wood, fire hardened or not, I would have thought that would have stopped it. Add to that the airway is protected by a layer of cartilege, which makes it tougher, and I think your man's got a real chance of surviving. As for the gambeson, though I have seen depictions of them with collars, my understanding is that they generally didn't have them. They're just like thick, padded jackets. And leather armour generally did not extend up the neck either.

As for the level of first aid available, I don't know. It wouldn't surprise me if they knew how to put pressure on a wound to stop bleeding though. I would worry about putting pressure on a neck wound though, as you might cut off something vital in the process.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[PrincessaMiranda]

I'd say the arrow wouldn't penetrate, but it would make a heck of a bruise. He may even have trouble breathing if it hit hard enough. Also, depending on the strength of the crossbow and the trajectory (where it hit him) It could be survivable. If you want him to be injured,

It hit his neck, ripped through the leather but was deterred by the coif, leaving a hideous bloody bruise. Unable to breathe he fell to the ground clutching at his neck.

He then could fall and something could hit his neck, not hard enough to kill, but enough to rip open the skin.

 

[Dan]

Thanks Greg!

Having reading through your reply, and looking over what I've wrote, I have come to the conclusion that I should probably change the action.

I think it'll be stretching the realism to expect the guy to a) live, and b) be picked up and placed onto a horse, straight after being shot through the throat. And as they are soldiers I don't think it would sound right if the men, and his sergeant just left him on the side of the road, with all his armour, weapons, and horse.

Or perhaps I shall use the information you mentioned with the coif, in that it being a few layers of mail, and could deflect a large broad-headed arrow, but still knock the wind / scare the soldier enough to make him abruptly end his sentence and shout-out. And then for the action to go on from there, as all men would be on their horses and could ride off as fast as possible.

 

[Dan]

Didn't see your post PrincessMiranda (Forgot I had the tab open... for two hours~ heh).

I could work in what you've mentioned for when he gets hit in say the chest, or having the arrow impact the upper-part of his arm (Aiming for his upper-chest area / heart).

 

[Caged Maiden]

If you are still in debate about this matter, I would like to say that a gorget is one of the basic pieces of armor... it's leather or plate and covers the neck. If you have only a chain mail coif, the mail will stop the bolt's penetration, but knowing the poundage of the bow would help. 30 meters is like point blank range, however, not much slowing the quarrel at that point, and easy to hit a target.

However, i'd go test this out for you, but I dont have a set of chainmail... I will tell you that I have shot untipped arrows at my leather couch (thin upholstery leather 4-5oz max) and they do not penetrate. In fact, at 30 yards, I have plenty of field points bounce off the carpet we use to back targets, so hardened leather would certainly stop a flying stick.

Hope that helps a little.

 

[Dan]

That is of tremendous help, thank you!

That has given me yet another idea - If thin leather could stop such a weapon then it could actually give my story some solid-grounding.

The 'rebel' firing the crossbow bolt does not intend to kill anyone, hence the wooden arrow being fired. Injuring the soldier was going to be an 'unplanned' intention due to the crossbowman being a little lazy with his shot, (Should have aimed for his chest which had clear mail & elements of plate on it) and a spot of bad luck on the soldiers side as he was reciting some of his poetry in an elaborate fashion and cocked his head back at the wrong time.

But I can use some artistic license in saying that the wooden arrow would, at best, only penetrate so far into the soldiers skin if it was a direct hit. Skin I'm assuming being a little less tough that leather.

And I think I will keep the soldier being hit in the throat, but with him wearing a plate gorget, have the arrow splinter and deflect upwards hitting the soldier in the cheek and causing a nasty cut, but not a life threatening injury.

That way, when it is explained to the Lord who is being escorted later on, that the attack was pre-planned, and was clearly not an attempt to greatly injure anyone, I can bring up the point of using the wooden arrow, or 'flying stick'.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I don't understand why the crossbow bolt is fire-hardened wood only. It's seems odd to me that an archer that has the technology of a crossbow would have bolts without metal heads.

Even a primitive tribesman that "acquired" a crossbow from a fallen adversary would be able to use flint or obsidian heads.

The weight of the bolt's head is essential in the missile's flight ability. I'm not even certain that a purely wooden bolt would fly properly... I'm guessing it wouldn't. So... My first question is, why no metal tip???

Edit after reading the above post: I would make a tip, from metal or stone, that could break away on impact, not penetrating the armor.

 

[Caged Maiden]

You can absolutely fire un-fletched, arrows with no points, I've done it. However, why a soldier would be armed with such a quarrel is beyond my comprehension. I can only tell you what I have done and what I think is feasible in the context of the question.

Also, just so we're clear about how wood splinters, because the breaking of weapons is a pet peeve of mine, arrows are pretty hard to shatter. I shoot with a guy who hits my arrows all the time. In fact, he's broken a couple, but even a direct hit to a shaft only takes a chunk out of them, causing them to be retired for safety reasons. To splinter it, it would have to be under extreme force. In fact, I've seen a long bow break in half in someone's hands, but never an arrow splinter into pieces.

Hope that helps.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I just did a research paper on medieval arrows if you would like, I'll send you a pdf in email

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Have the archer design a metal or stone head that will break away on impact with armor but still retain the weight needed for proper flight.

 

[Dan]

I would very much like to see your research paper!

I can send you my email address via PM if required?

Well I shall add a tip of some kind, and one that can easily break off. Would it make sense for an archer who 'did not' want to kill anyone, to make use of a soft metal, perhaps lead? (Well technically the archer doesn't care if he kills, but he has been 'ordered' not to kill any of the men. Just to simply give them a fright.)

I have seen a few arrows which have large, blunt metal tips. Perhaps an arrow head like that could work as it would be a big impact from the weight, but very harmless against plate armour. It would also rule out any piercing injuries.

I have never fired a bow, or really looked into the construction of arrows (Wood types, weights, and so on) so I just assumed that a wooden tipped arrow would splinter, or at least split on impact with hardened steel or iron.

 

[Shockley]

I'm curious, Caged Maiden, because of the terminology you're using. Are you doing your studies on arrows (as you seem to imply) or bolts (which is what a crossbow in medieval times would actually fire)? You could use an arrow, absolutely, but someone wanting to use the crossbow to full effectiveness would probably use the projectile actually designed for it. They'll fly differently just because an arrow is set up one way and a bolt is set up another.

For the benefit of the thread:

A wooden bolt is going to have a thicker middle just to maintain the right weight, and the head is then absolutely necessary in order to maintain the flight trajectory.

If a guy is shooting wooden projectiles at someone wearing armor, I've got to admit that I would lose my suspension of disbelief. At that point, I'd think the characters were sacrificing themselves over to the plot and that's not a good thing.

As to the medical questions:

I think it would be easier to survive an arrow to the throat than a bolt. The arrow doesn't have as much force behind it, but the crossbow goes hard and fast. Even if the bolt missed all the vitals, it's still going to have the force equivalent of hitting him full in the throat with a large rock.

 

[Frog]

1. If this is a character that has intentionally put together a non-lethal crossbow bold, then don't go with the fire-hardened or a complicated breakaway tip. You do need the weight of the metal for true flight over distance, but you don't need that metal formed to a point. Just make the head really blunt; it'll hurt like heck, but it won't be lethal.

2. If you are accurate enough to hit someone in the neck with a crossbow bolt, and that person is on horseback and charging you, then I think the surest nonlethal response with a fully functional bolt would be to shoot the horse. You will incapacitate the heck out of the rider, but your chances of killing him outright go way down.

And finally:

I think it would be easier to survive an arrow to the throat than a bolt. The arrow doesn't have as much force behind it, but the crossbow goes hard and fast. Even if the bolt missed all the vitals, it's still going to have the force equivalent of hitting him full in the throat with a large rock.

This is all variable based on the type of crossbow and the type of bow. It comes to an issue of poundage. A crossbow does have the capacity to be set at a higher poundage than most normal period bows, but that doesn't mean it necessarily is.

 

[Dan]

Thank you both for keeping the awesome information coming!

I've pasted what happens in scene (Well most of it. It is still a work-in-progress), just to give you's all a better idea of the situation.

I have changed a number of vital bits a) Harris, the guy who gets shot dies, b) He gets shot in the neck with a 'broad-headed' bolt.

Now is that actually something that exists? Or were all bolts tipped with simple-pointy metal tips?

Also, not mentioned, but perhaps I will write it in, is that the men are wearing mail, and leather padding underneath, but no mail coifs, or armour plating around the neck area.

....It was a good hour before the men were back on the road. Francis always liked to make camp away from the roads; peace and prosperity reigned over the Oaken Tor province, as it had done for a number years now. This made highwaymen, bandits and groups of rebels quite rare. But still, he wasn’t willing to take chances.

As the group of men rode two abreast along the winding road, occasionally ducking under low branches, and guiding their horses around fall branches the mood was even better than it had been on the morning.

Harris, second-in-command; Technically third, Francis used to remind him, as Lord Eren was first-in-command, thought of himself, as Francis had been told many a-time, a poet of sorts.

“A Summer’s Sun cuts through morning due, rising as high as the birds do sore, across skies so blue, and down to lie. For the pale-angel of never-never must ar...aaaaa!”

A gasp of air escaped Harris’ mouth as he quickly grabbed his throat and fell off of his horse.

Pete lett out a terrible scream, “Ahh! Help!”

Francis raced back to see what the commotion was. Arriving just in time to see the warm blood seeping through Harris’ fingers.

Protruding a dozen inches or more from Harris’ throat, a bolt!

“Rebels!”, Shouted Francis.

“Crossbow!”, Shouted Chepkin, “Cowardly bastards!”

Francis pulled Harris too the side of the path, and pulled back his’ hands to get a better look at the wound. A thick bolt protruded out of the side of Harris’ neck.

“Everyone. Dismount! Find yourself cover!”, Shouted Francis.

Francis, needed to apply pressure, and knowing it was only a matter of time before Harris bled out, tried to pull out the bolt. It wouldn’t budge; he figured it must have been tipped with a broad-head.

Harris tried to scream as Francis pulled the bolt, all he could muster was a spluttering of blood, and then he was gone.

“Bastards!”, Screamed Francis. Francis had fought alongside Harris for a number of years now, and he had often joked that had he not been so annoying in reciting his poetry, he would have called him a brother.

Another ‘thunk’ rung out as a bolt flew past Francis’ head.

Another scream went up. Pete jumped up, “Ahh!”, A bolt had found his left arm.

“Get down you fool!”, Francis ran over to Pete and dragged him back down. Back down to cover.

The edges of the old road were laden with thick, tall bushes. They provided some cover. Not enough.

‘thunk! thunk! thunk!’, Bolts rained down all around them.

Francis suddenly realised that Lord Eren was nowhere to be seen, “Men. Stick to cover. I need to find Lord Eren. Chepkin’s! Get over here and see to Pete’s arm!”, And with that Francis looked around for his horse, jumped up and leapt onto the saddle.

As he sped off down the road towards the direction of Oaken Tor, he couldn’t help but think the worst.

“Lord Eren!”, Francis shouted out as he rode. He could see a horse in the distance, trotting. It had a body slumped over on the saddle.

“No. Not Eren,”, Francis said to himself, with a feeling of sickening fear, “no. It can’t be!”

Francis kicked his horse into a lighting-gallop.

“No!”, Cried out Francis. Sat atop the horse was Lord Eren. A dozen bolts protruding from his body, one from the side of his head.

“Damn them all. Damn them to the hells!”, Francis spat in bloody rage.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

A broadhead is typically shaped like an isosceles triangle. Normally it has two edged blades but can occasionally have two smaller blades on the flats of the head for a total of 4 blades.

Bolts and arrows, designed to puncture armor, were not the broadhead type. They were blunted, metal tips that looked like small cubes. Sometimes those blunted tips would have a slight pyramid style point at the puncturing end. The blunted/pyramidal points were the choice against an armored opponents as they could puncture the metal armor by punching through. A typical edged broadhead commonly slid off the rounded curves of metal plate.

 

[Dan]

Thank you T.Allen, I have made adjustments so that it is a tipped bolt, but it hits bone which makes it (I assume) harder to pull out as it would have impacted with a great force.

The soldier dies, so I don't have to run-around in circles to explain how he lives

 

[robertbevan]

i know you've already made your decision. but i got here late and wanted to add this:

people have survived worse stuff than that pretty frequently. remember that guy who got a spike through his brain that they teach you about in psychology classes?

anyway... i was just thinking that he might be able to get away with having an unintentional stoma if they pulled the bolt out and cauterized the wound right away. i mean, sure there's a lot of important stuff in your neck, and it's all pretty crowded together in there, but i don't think it's completely ridiculous that he'd survive it... especially if he only needed to survive temporarily.

 

[SeverinR]

I believe a non-lethal crossbowman would use a blunted bolt, rather then no tip at all. Blunted would prevent accidental penetration.

missle penetrating neck:
Like someone else said, the neck is packed with life sustaining pathways.
Trachea-death from suffication or drowning.
Jugular: bleed to death.
Carotid artery: bleed to death
esophagus; unable to get food to the stomach, death by starvation. (possibly repairable)
Spine: paralysis-death; depending on where the damage is.

if all of these life sustaining parts are missed, the neck muscles would be severed(the only thing left of the neck) thus head movement would be probably permanently altered, ie no more fighting.