diversity issue

[actoncurrer]

Hello. Yes, just by judging by the title, this is going to be a bit of a difficult discussion. To keep it short, I need to have a direct feedback from someone who isn't white.
It's impossible for me to explain my whole world and how it works in just one single post. I'm just going to say that I've been gradually been developing it since roughly 5 years ago and I started from certain characters and then the story and the world around it basically just created itself. There are two main timelines in this story and in one of this the two main characters aren't white. I never put too much thought into it, I have simply always imagined them as certain actors or just sharing features with people I used to know in real life. Now I kinda feel like I got stuck into a huge hole and I just wonder that if the way I chose to develop certain ethnicities is just plain insensitive. There are many discussions about huge white authors who just openly don't give a hoot about these topics and it got me questioning myself because it's not what I intend to do with my story at all; my characters and the world surrounding them are supposed to inspire people and I really care about this aspect because otherwise the entire story is pointless to me.

It's difficult for me to summarize it without going in too much detail, but I need to start by saying that in my world, appearances and features are crucial to the plot. Populations share distinct traits, like hair color, and this plays into the story’s conflicts and plot. The main setting includes Misia, a principate ruling on all of their provinces, and the Isles, an achipelago of city states. Their relationship is meant to parallel a bit Greece - Rome during Rome's imperialistic era: the Isles used to hold egemony until Misia started to have the most influence economically, politically and militarily, sweeping the throne from the Isles' feet. Like the good, kind hearted people that imperialists usually are Misians believe that they are superior to all the other populations, because why not. Important disclaimer: this happens for every single population that they rule over except for the Isles. Because in this story education, literature and EXPECIALLY historiography is incredibly important and culturally speaking, the Isles still hold all the power in the known world, since all there is of science, mathematics, art, literature, politics, it all started from there. Misian elites are often educated in the Isles, all the literature and philosophy continuously reference is from the Isles, their social system and beliefs basically parallels the Isles. This indicates that Misians fairly respected the Islanders as almost their equals and they like to think of themselves as their descendants, yet despite having more freedom the others the Isles remain subjugated. Most Islanders want to hold that power again and this is a huge plot point moving forward. What happened is that my main characters that I previously mentioned are from the Isles and are meant to be POC. So now I either: 1 make the Islanders all share their features with these character, therefore making them a black population who had their bum kicked by blonde colonizers 2 make them have mixed features, making them the only group without uniform traits. I feel like that somehow this also feels hypocritical, as it implies characters that are POC can only exist if i introduce another population that is a diverse society compared to all the others. My question in general is: Is it acceptable—or insensitive—to depict a fictional population where everyone shares black features? I don't really know how to approach this and that's why I need feedback.

 

[Diana Silver]

Yeah... I don't know if you're gonna need a black person to tell you this. Including certain characters / peoples in your story cannot in itself be insensitive. Writing it badly is what makes it insensitive.

1 make the Islanders all share their features with these character, therefore making them a black population who had their bum kicked by blonde colonizers 2 make them have mixed features, making them the only group without uniform traits

Pick the option that makes most sense for your world and your story, then think through the implications and come up with a nuanced interpretation of the situation. You seem to have already intuited some aspects that your story should probably deal with. Keep educating yourself on historical and social matters that seem relevant, and give it your best.

 

[Karlin]

A couple of thoughts:
1. "I just wonder that if the way I chose to develop certain ethnicities is just plain insensitive." Why? Insensitive in what way? What triggered your concern?
2. "I need to have a direct feedback from someone who isn't white." You may get different answers from different non-white people. Some people are really sensitive to such things, others may not even notice that there's a problem.
3. What do you mean by "someone who isn't white"? That's a rather binary view of a complex world.

 

[pmmg]

This whole topic sounds like a descent into hell to me. But, if you feel its the best way to go, there are such things as sensitivity readers. If no one here volunteers, you might find them on Reedsy, or Fiver or such.

What happened is that my main characters that I previously mentioned are from the Isles and are meant to be POC. So now I either: 1 make the Islanders all share their features with these character, therefore making them a black population who had their bum kicked by blonde colonizers 2 make them have mixed features, making them the only group without uniform traits.

If its important that the MC be a POC, and your world is divided by race in such ways, then I think you are gonna have to make the place he is from full of POC. Or, come up with a good reason why he is different.

I think you will find, that as time goes on, more and more people from controlled places will have mixed features. So I would ask how long has it been occupied?

My question in general is: Is it acceptable—or insensitive—to depict a fictional population where everyone shares black features?

Answer: No.

My advice is write it true. If he's a POC and that causes issues in the story, let it cause issues.

I think I would be dubious of a world that had such integration, one culture gaining control over another, and the world was so clean as to have each race or genetic feature, so controlled as there would be no crossover.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Writing With Color on Tumblr has been active for years and is a treasure trove of exactly the information you're looking for. Their Ask Box is closed, but that's normal. Read everything related to your quandary. And then branch out. There is a wealth of discussion out there, as we explore better ways to include everyone in this common narrative we call the story of the human experience.

https://writingwithcolor.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F94223998982

 

[K.S. Crooks]

You should probably exam what you think of as "black" features and why this new population needs to have them. It's not uncommon for people of one ethnicity to have trouble seeing all the difference in people of another. For example someone of African decent may have trouble seeing differences in people from Southern Asia.
You could make the difference in the populations more related to body types than facial features. Give most people of one group longer legs or wider shoulders or lots of freckles, etc. You can still change skin colours, but colour and specific features don't have to go together.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

You should probably exam what you think of as "black" features and why this new population needs to have them. It's not uncommon for people of one ethnicity to have trouble seeing all the difference in people of another. For example someone of African decent may have trouble seeing differences in people from Southern Asia.
You could make the difference in the populations more related to body types than facial features. Give most people of one group longer legs or wider shoulders or lots of freckles, etc. You can still change skin colours, but colour and specific features don't have to go together.

Representing Team Freckles, here. I'm of Irish extraction and I've had more than one small child comment that I have "spots." Freckles, of course, are not limited to the Irish or even just to white skin, and genetics are always basically just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks.

For reference, my arm at mid-winter. In summer, I don't tan. I just wait for them to multiply, swarm, and try to take over the world.

 

[ThinkerX]

This thread reminds me of the mini-lectures Grammarly gives whenever I use words the idiot program deems 'inappropriate.' Some are fairly obvious ('slave'), while others are 'why?' ('old women.') My attitude is, 'I used the word 'slave' because that character was a slave. And those women were old. Weirdly, though, Grammarly almost never objects to graphic/obscene words.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

This thread reminds me of the mini-lectures Grammarly gives whenever I use words the idiot program deems 'inappropriate.' Some are fairly obvious ('slave'), while others are 'why?' ('old women.') My attitude is, 'I used the word 'slave' because that character was a slave. And those women were old. Weirdly, though, Grammarly almost never objects to graphic/obscene words.

Grammarly can keep her little busy body fingers out of my narrative, thank you very much. She's pushy, opinionated, and given that I treat the English language like my personal Slinky I'd probably break her, anyway.

 

[ThinkerX]

Representing Team Freckles, here. I'm of Irish extraction and I've had more than one small child comment that I have "spots." Freckles, of course, are not limited to the Irish or even just to white skin, and genetics are always basically just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks.

For reference, my arm at mid-winter. In summer, I don't tan. I just wait for them to multiply, swarm, and try to take over the world.
View attachment 3861

I have a minor female character in 'Labyrinth War' who is called 'Spots' by most of her family and companions because she has an acute case of freckles. 'Spots' (aka 'Lucy') is a budding teenage healer/herbalist - and one of the few genuinely decent characters in the book.

 

[Prince of Spires]

This thread reminds me of the mini-lectures Grammarly gives whenever I use words the idiot program deems 'inappropriate.' Some are fairly obvious ('slave'), while others are 'why?' ('old women.')

Have you ever called a woman old? That's dangerous territory right there. And the woman in question would at least deem it highly inappropriate...

 

[ThinkerX]

Have you ever called a woman old? That's dangerous territory right there. And the woman in question would at least deem it highly inappropriate...

they called themselves 'old women,' and sometimes, 'old biddies.' (Weirdly, Grammarly didn't object to that last term.)

 

[Dylan]

Hello. Yes, just by judging by the title, this is going to be a bit of a difficult discussion. To keep it short, I need to have a direct feedback from someone who isn't white.
It's impossible for me to explain my whole world and how it works in just one single post. I'm just going to say that I've been gradually been developing it since roughly 5 years ago and I started from certain characters and then the story and the world around it basically just created itself. There are two main timelines in this story and in one of this the two main characters aren't white. I never put too much thought into it, I have simply always imagined them as certain actors or just sharing features with people I used to know in real life. Now I kinda feel like I got stuck into a huge hole and I just wonder that if the way I chose to develop certain ethnicities is just plain insensitive. There are many discussions about huge white authors who just openly don't give a hoot about these topics and it got me questioning myself because it's not what I intend to do with my story at all; my characters and the world surrounding them are supposed to inspire people and I really care about this aspect because otherwise the entire story is pointless to me.

It's difficult for me to summarize it without going in too much detail, but I need to start by saying that in my world, appearances and features are crucial to the plot. Populations share distinct traits, like hair color, and this plays into the story’s conflicts and plot. The main setting includes Misia, a principate ruling on all of their provinces, and the Isles, an achipelago of city states. Their relationship is meant to parallel a bit Greece - Rome during Rome's imperialistic era: the Isles used to hold egemony until Misia started to have the most influence economically, politically and militarily, sweeping the throne from the Isles' feet. Like the good, kind hearted people that imperialists usually are Misians believe that they are superior to all the other populations, because why not. Important disclaimer: this happens for every single population that they rule over except for the Isles. Because in this story education, literature and EXPECIALLY historiography is incredibly important and culturally speaking, the Isles still hold all the power in the known world, since all there is of science, mathematics, art, literature, politics, it all started from there. Misian elites are often educated in the Isles, all the literature and philosophy continuously reference is from the Isles, their social system and beliefs basically parallels the Isles. This indicates that Misians fairly respected the Islanders as almost their equals and they like to think of themselves as their descendants, yet despite having more freedom the others the Isles remain subjugated. Most Islanders want to hold that power again and this is a huge plot point moving forward. What happened is that my main characters that I previously mentioned are from the Isles and are meant to be POC. So now I either: 1 make the Islanders all share their features with these character, therefore making them a black population who had their bum kicked by blonde colonizers 2 make them have mixed features, making them the only group without uniform traits. I feel like that somehow this also feels hypocritical, as it implies characters that are POC can only exist if i introduce another population that is a diverse society compared to all the others. My question in general is: Is it acceptable—or insensitive—to depict a fictional population where everyone shares black features? I don't really know how to approach this and that's why I need feedback.

I appreciate your thoughtful approach to this topic. It's important to ensure that your portrayal of characters of color is respectful and avoids stereotypes. Consider consulting with people from those backgrounds and seeking feedback from sensitivity readers. This can help ensure authenticity and avoid potential issues. Best of luck with your story.

 

[Karlin]

I appreciate your thoughtful approach to this topic. It's important to ensure that your portrayal of characters of color is respectful and avoids stereotypes. Consider consulting with people from those backgrounds and seeking feedback from sensitivity readers. This can help ensure authenticity and avoid potential issues. Best of luck with your story.

"Consulting with people from those backgrounds" is a minefield. Who says all "people of color" think the same? How far does "avoiding stereotypes" go? Who gets to be a "sensitivity reader" and decide what is kosher?

If you honestly feel that your writing is using stereotypes or is insensitive, then you should fix it. Yourself.

It is telling that I am hesitant to even write the above. Someone might say something....

 

[Dylan]

"Consulting with people from those backgrounds" is a minefield. Who says all "people of color" think the same? How far does "avoiding stereotypes" go? Who gets to be a "sensitivity reader" and decide what is kosher?

If you honestly feel that your writing is using stereotypes or is insensitive, then you should fix it. Yourself.

It is telling that I am hesitant to even write the above. Someone might say something....

Sorry if we got off on the wrong foot. I understand that consulting with people can be complex, and I agree that it's important to avoid generalizations. I appreciate your perspective and will take it into consideration.

 

[Ban]

Have you ever called a woman old? That's dangerous territory right there. And the woman in question would at least deem it highly inappropriate...

In my experience, the barrier for being "old" is always a few years more than the person addressed as such.

 

[JBCrowson]

Representing Team Freckles, here. I'm of Irish extraction and I've had more than one small child comment that I have "spots." Freckles, of course, are not limited to the Irish or even just to white skin, and genetics are always basically just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks.

For reference, my arm at mid-winter. In summer, I don't tan. I just wait for them to multiply, swarm, and try to take over the world.
View attachment 3861

Lol, call that a freckly arm, you're practically alabaster my dear! Too much time indoors pounding keyboards methinks. I like the swarming and taking over the world image though

 

[JBCrowson]

This thread reminds me of the mini-lectures Grammarly gives whenever I use words the idiot program deems 'inappropriate.' Some are fairly obvious ('slave'), while others are 'why?' ('old women.') My attitude is, 'I used the word 'slave' because that character was a slave. And those women were old. Weirdly, though, Grammarly almost never objects to graphic/obscene words.

That's because AI is only one of artificial and intelligent.

 

[JBCrowson]

Have you ever called a woman old? That's dangerous territory right there. And the woman in question would at least deem it highly inappropriate...

"I'm not old, and my name's Dennis."

 

[Queshire]

"Consulting with people from those backgrounds" is a minefield. Who says all "people of color" think the same? How far does "avoiding stereotypes" go? Who gets to be a "sensitivity reader" and decide what is kosher?

If you honestly feel that your writing is using stereotypes or is insensitive, then you should fix it. Yourself.

It is telling that I am hesitant to even write the above. Someone might say something....

Sorry, do you think a sensitivity reader is going to hold a gun to your head and make you change shit? You're the author. At worst a sensitivity reader is just a beta reader meant to focus on a particular topic. Whether or not you take what they say into consideration is up to you.