Diversity Lioness misfire?

@ Penpilot:

Thanks, that's exactly how I think, too. I have to admit, after being told I can't sympathize with what it's like to live as a POC, I was a bit like "well, WTF?" like, does that mean I can't write realistic PEOPLE who are CHARACTERS in a book?

@ Darkwriter:

If you ask me, my concepts aren't offensive, because if I thought they were, I'd not write them. I'm trying to make sense of a comment I received about my sensitivity level and I just can't believe how hesitant it's made me to write the story I've had on the back burner now for a year. I appreciate your being as confused as I am My original concern about writing a POC MC was whether his language ought to be something different than how I speak. I'm American but I married a British guy, so we speak a sort of hybrid language and in my writing, that comes out because for some reason, I find it more expressive and more familiar all at the same time. Maybe it isn't even as noticeable as I think it is. Anyways, I wondered whether a certain vernacular would be insulting/ expected/ sorely missed? if I write the way I always do, would it suffice for my POC MC, or would it be somehow insulting, as if I were trying to make him less ethnic. I thought it was an honest question (and one I'd still like an answer to) but rather than being clearer after asking, I felt like I was a hopelessly ignorant person, verging on racist for my thinking I should just treat everyone the same.



I appreciate your suggestions, scribes. To me, in my mind and the world in which I live, treating everyone the same is good, but when I was told it was bad, I have to admit, I was really confused. But I've given it a lot of consideration in the meantime and I guess I can understand how omitting parts of race (whether it be intentionally avoiding anything that could look like a stereotype, or omitting language, physical characteristics, or personality traits that could be viewed as "negative") was actually insulting. That's the reason I felt "damned if you do/ damned if you don't", because by their very omission, I may be drawing attention to what I "perceive" as the unsightly or unpalatable elements of being a POC.

See? See how it hurt me to be called insensitive? I think I'm very sensitive and I care a lot about all people (who aren't stupid or abusive) and I don't think about skin tone when I meet potential friends.

I am ashamed to admit, since that happened, drawing attention to my racial insensitivity, I've been overly-nice to African-Americans I've met because I experience anxiety now, yet all my previous POC friends I treat with familiarity and racial indifference. This has affected me and now that I moved to Columbus, OH, I hope I can get over it because in Albuquerque, everyone was Hispanic or Native American and my anxiety seems only piqued by my perceived insensitivity toward African-Americans. I feel sick thinking I'm now more racist than I was before, by being overly-thoughtful and nice. It's like when I see elderly people in the store and I offer them a hand...am I being ageist? or am I just being a good citizen? A few weeks ago, I saw an elderly woman in a motorized wheelchair and passed her multiple times, grocery shopping the same aisles, and once, she was extricating herself from her ride, to reach something on the top shelf. I rushed over to reach it for her and she told me she could do it herself. Not in a rude way. But I felt like maybe my kindness (or as I think of it, being a good citizen) was mistaken? I'm fairly convinced I'm not insulting, but maybe perceptions are different for others. I just want to be a sensitive and good person. I also had an uncomfortable incident with a transgender friend, who I treated as a woman because in my mind, if you dress like a woman, you want to be treated as one, right? Probably another thing I'm not sensitive enough about. But anyways, it wasn't her transgender choice that made me uncomfortable, but certain very sexual comments made. After pretending to admire the photos she showed me from a nude photo shoot, I sort of felt a need to distance myself, not because I'd seen his, you know...everything, but because the topics of our future conversations became less day-to-day, and more tinged with sexual undertones--something she very much wanted to discuss but I didn't. I again, felt insensitive, but I just wasn't comfortable and felt cornered in conversations that to me weren't appropriate.

I'm a pagan with a generous number of lesbian, gay, transgender, bisexual, asexual, swinger, polyamorous, nudist, vegan, feminist, Catholic, Heathen, Wiccan, etc. (by that I mean different from me, not different in a negative way) friends, that come from a multitude of ancestral backgrounds. I guess ignorant is the right word for what I am, but until being exposed in a meaningful way to a "culture" into which I wasn't born, I just can't understand deeply. However, I relish the relationships I've had with people who brought me understanding and took the time to tell me about them and their lives. It's certainly given me a lot of insight, though I'm sure there's always much more to learn. I just think all people have flaws and strengths and I want to be able to write what I like and what I feel, and I want to do justice to any character I am inspired to write.

@ Graylorne

I apologize to you for placing my personal thoughts on your thread, but this segment of the forum has captured a lot of attention from the open people to whom I want to pose my questions. Thank you for bringing your feelings up here and opening this door for conversation. The issues of race and sexuality in your work, and bringing them and their portrayals to light, may help a lot of people. I know I'm one of them.

 

@ Graylorne

One thing that comes to mind about your women, is their fertility. I'm not sure how you have this planted in your book, but if hormones have actually shifted and females are producing larger than normal amounts of testosterone (and presumably less estrogen) they may have fertility problems.

Estrogen levels are controlled by your body fat. If you're a muscular, athletic girl, (think gymnasts) you may never have the onset of menarche until you're like 20 (after they give up competitive gymnastics). Low body fat and high muscle percentage creates infertility. You don't ovulate and you don't menstruate, accordingly.

Also, the converse is true, that in women with an overly-high percentage of body fat, the body produces too much estrogen, leading to emotional instability and glandular imbalance. Those women often have fertility problems, too because again they don't ovulate and menstruate, and often will be lucky to have four cycles a year.

If your culture is indeed hormonally different from what we consider the appropriate balance for optimal fertility, you may not have a lot of children and it may even be encouraged to be sexually active with a multitude of partners (where if you're only having sex with one man, his sperm count is continually diminished, but multiple partners offers the best chances for fertilization).

Just some thoughts.

 

It's completely plausible. Most full-time athletic women, or those in developing countries where food is not plentiful, don't have their fertility set on until later. In our European history, the age of marriage was higher than people think (in the 1530s in England it was 25) and while some children were married (because of nobility) much younger, they often didn't consummate their marriage until 16 and still then many weren't fertile. Nutrition, body composition, and health play important roles in fertility. As modern people living in a world flooded with synthetic estrogens and with abundant food sources, we have 13-year old mothers, but in the past, it was much less likely. Not only did biology play a part, but a sense of protection for our daughters. European parents after the plague had less children and spent their meager resources securing apprenticeships for their sons and buying good marriages for their daughters. A man wasn't considered "marriageable" until he'd finished his apprenticeship (age 24) and daughters worked in their family businesses alongside their parents (or cared for younger siblings/ cousins) until married. It was less about "mouths to feed" than it was pre-plague and while we have a lot of mis-history to pull from today, there are a lot of relatively "modern" attitudes toward parenting and having and raising children to be found in actual history.

Since you're writing a semi-tribal and African-inspired culture, I remember watching a documentary about a certain African tribe that openly encouraged youths to engage in sexuality and girls weren't considered "marriageable" until they'd produced a first child. At that point, whomever wanted to marry her would adopt the child as his own and be her husband and the father of her future children. I guess in a place where fertility isn't guaranteed, it's as good a reasoning as any.

 

And you could probably do some more research about muscular women and infertility. As far as I know, most women could technically exercise their way right out of fertility. I'd imagine if your body composition is right, even past her teens, a girl might never have become a woman. I only know it in the case of Olympic gymnasts, some of which couldn't conceive for years (not like 5, but more like 1-2) after giving up their sport and exercise routines. This is different from the sort of exercise you should do if you have terrible cramping or large amounts of blood loss. it's the actual suppression of ovulation because of less than necessary body fat to produce estrogen required for ovulation and successive menstruation. Also in the other thread we've discussed all kinds of herbs you can use to suppress your cycle. Women have been doing it since ancient times as well. No magic necessary, really. And contraception.

For me as a reader, I think the simplest explanation is always easiest to grasp, so perhaps just the glandular route would work. Girls don't begin to be fertile until about age twenty because they don't have enough estrogen until then, and if they're muscular warriors, even later.

 

You bring up another valid point. I have written sexual relationships with young teens 14/15 and while I don't morally object to the notion (lest I be called a hypocrite), is there any legal reason it might not be okay? I mean, it's written words I'm showing to people, not images, but is there some sort of author responsibility to not show such a relationship? It isn't graphic and indeed shortly after the acts take place her father throws the boy out of the house and he...disappears, creating a mystery and a broken heart in the process. But that's my story, centered around two teen lovers who want nothing more than to be married and love each other. And remember, I'm the one that just posted about the lateness of sixteenth-century marriages. I treat this relationship as very special and there's a reason for it (partly stemming from an absent father and a neglectful step-mother). But you mentioned writing within the age of consent and here it's a ludicrous eighteen, but that never affected my views on being a young person. I write characters, not moral statements, you know? And these two characters are young and in love, and I didn't write many details. Where is that line drawn? Is there a line?

 

I believe portraying teens as sexual objects is probably more a problem than writing them enjoying themselves in the skinny little arms of their teen peers. I guess that answered my question, though, since it jogged my memory and since I've read it in published books, I have to assume it isn't illegal or even immoral to portray teen sex, even in a relatively distasteful light.

I read romance and recall a novel about a 13-year-old MC who is married and pregnant...one of the things that irks me about the genre. I mean, yes, historical references exist, but it's a misunderstood thing, historical marriage, and the way modern writers portray times past sometimes irritates me thoroughly. But I totally understand, Tom, which was why I wondered whether fantasy readers would be put off by my 14-year-old and 15-year-old romance. While I personally don't have a problem with teens having sex, there does appear a sort of public intolerance and while romance readers may not dissect it, fantasy readers may be a different breed.

For me, I was more offended by the 13-year-old MC of the book I mentioned putting so much weight on being a pleasing wife to her 30-year-old husband and relishing her pregnancy before age 14, even competing with other girls in her social circle, like the only thing a girl is good for is sex and child-bearing. That left a bad taste in my mouth, (which is saying a lot because I was sexually active at 14 and have four kids, the first of which was when I was 25), and I stopped reading that author because of it.

I certainly hope my portrayal of young love is more respectful to girls and women, and focuses more on the love aspect than the act of sex. In fact, she gets in a lot of trouble for the whole incident, and her father's punishment is harsher than anything she could have anticipated. Her young love goes missing and after finding certain bits of information about his disappearance, she writes him off as dead.