Mindfire
Istar
What you you guys think about divine intervention as a plot point? Like? Dislike? Despise? The floor is open.
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Divine Intervention vs. Deus Ex Machina
- Thread starter Mindfire
- Start date
Divine intervention is Deus Ex Machina.
"The heroes are surrounded by the enemy. All good is about to be wiped from the face of the planet-
-Oh wait, angels have come wielding the Hammers of Judgement. The enemies are slain. The angels thank the heroes for believing in their Lord."
I'd feel cheated. Also, the question will come up: "Why did divine intervention come at that specific time? When Character X died 20 chapters ago, where were those angels? Was he not deserving? I loved Character X!
"The heroes are surrounded by the enemy. All good is about to be wiped from the face of the planet-
-Oh wait, angels have come wielding the Hammers of Judgement. The enemies are slain. The angels thank the heroes for believing in their Lord."
I'd feel cheated. Also, the question will come up: "Why did divine intervention come at that specific time? When Character X died 20 chapters ago, where were those angels? Was he not deserving? I loved Character X!
- Thread starter
- #3
Mindfire
Istar
You've given me an excellent opportunity to showcase the idea that made me create this thread. The situation is this: my main character, Reuben, is at the end of his rope: beaten, starved, and held prisoner by his enemies, who mean to break his spirit. Six times he has attempted escape and failed each time. As he languishes on the brink of despair, weak and delirious, he experiences a vision. A large Black Owl, his culture's version of the Angel of death, appears in his cell. His will to live all but lost, he greets the avatar of death like a friend, thinking it has come tend his suffering. The Owl gives a haunting cry, and the cell door swings open on its hinges. The Owl stares at my protagonist, silently urging him to make his choice. Reuben gathers his last reserves of strength and declares he will not die in this cell. The Owl flies out of the cell, Reuben follows. He runs, driven by the strength of desperation, the Owl always just ahead of him. After running he knows not how long, he finds himself in the woods, a free man, and collapses from exhaustion into the arms of a friend who had been searching for him many days.
This moment really speaks to me, and I think it has impact. The Black Owl is foreshadowed, explained, and even seen briefly earlier in the narrative. The scene is written just ambiguously enough that the reader might question whether it was real or just a hallucination or fever dream. The "real" answer is that it did happen, but the power of the scene is what matters. I like the idea of a character hitting rock bottom, and then discovering that they are not alone.
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WyrdMystic
Inkling
Used as a plot device like that I think it can be really effective, especially if the owl is hinted at throughout the story. If that is the end of the story though I would feel cheated.
If it is part of the story and the eventual conclusion comes from the feats of the character and not the intervention of the owl (as in the angel of death is a portent or a helping hand, or is even a manifestation of his subconscious allowing access to powers they never knew they possessed) then I would be happy! Very happy!
If it is part of the story and the eventual conclusion comes from the feats of the character and not the intervention of the owl (as in the angel of death is a portent or a helping hand, or is even a manifestation of his subconscious allowing access to powers they never knew they possessed) then I would be happy! Very happy!
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Weaver
Sage
My general opinion is that gods ought to stay out of it, but that's a matter of personal taste. (We've been asked for our opinion, right? So we're allowed to express that opinion, even if it may possibly conflict with what someone else expresses later?) I think that, if the intervention is foreshadowed well, and if it comes not at the most desperate moment but rather at an earlier but still important point, it could work. Depends on the story. Also depends on how the author depicts the divinities in question.
I agree with Ankari that I'd feel cheated if there was some kind of sudden 'angels appearing from nowhere' intervention. If angels are going to appear in the story, far better if they're there to inspire the hero to keep going, or to offer advice, or otherwise not cheat the character of his chance to be the hero.
I agree with Ankari that I'd feel cheated if there was some kind of sudden 'angels appearing from nowhere' intervention. If angels are going to appear in the story, far better if they're there to inspire the hero to keep going, or to offer advice, or otherwise not cheat the character of his chance to be the hero.
Kevin O. McLaughlin
Sage
WHY is the god intervening just then? Also, HOW can you emphasize that the final outcome is determined by the character, not by external super powerful forces?
Elizabeth Moon's excellent "Deed of Paksenarrion" has a powerful moment of deus ex machina in the last book of the trilogy. But it works: because really, the entire story has led up to that moment. You've seen the character proving herself over and over, seen clues leading to that moment, so when it comes, it's not jarring (although IMHO, despite all that, it's not the series' finest moment anyway). So it can be done effectively, or at least not in such a way that it messes up the story. But it's not easy.
Elizabeth Moon's excellent "Deed of Paksenarrion" has a powerful moment of deus ex machina in the last book of the trilogy. But it works: because really, the entire story has led up to that moment. You've seen the character proving herself over and over, seen clues leading to that moment, so when it comes, it's not jarring (although IMHO, despite all that, it's not the series' finest moment anyway). So it can be done effectively, or at least not in such a way that it messes up the story. But it's not easy.
Sheriff Woody
Troubadour
I struggle to think of any example where letting the hero sit back and do nothing while the conflict is solved for him/her is a good idea.
I believe the key is to keep the hero active and foreshadow any outside help that may arrive, be it a god, another character, etc.
This was handled beautifully in the original Star Wars film. Even though Luke is saved from Vader by Han, Luke was still active in speeding through the trench to fire into the exhaust port to blow up the Death Star. He never took a break from that goal, and his exchange with Han before Han (supposedly) left was the foreshadowing that gave his return such impact and made it work.
You can do pretty much the same thing with divine intervention as long as you set it up in a way where it feels like an important part of the story instead of a cheap and simple fix or a Get Out of Plot Hole Free card.
I believe the key is to keep the hero active and foreshadow any outside help that may arrive, be it a god, another character, etc.
This was handled beautifully in the original Star Wars film. Even though Luke is saved from Vader by Han, Luke was still active in speeding through the trench to fire into the exhaust port to blow up the Death Star. He never took a break from that goal, and his exchange with Han before Han (supposedly) left was the foreshadowing that gave his return such impact and made it work.
You can do pretty much the same thing with divine intervention as long as you set it up in a way where it feels like an important part of the story instead of a cheap and simple fix or a Get Out of Plot Hole Free card.
- Thread starter
- #8
Mindfire
Istar
Here's what I think: simply put, balance is the key. My personal philosophy is that the purpose of divine intervention is to make the problem solvable, not to solve it for the characters.
A more dramatic example: I've planned for the series's grand finale to feature the heroes going up against the villainess and her army, who happen to be backed up by a demonic legion of the damned. Obviously it's impossible for my mere mortal protagonists to take on a host of demons, so the Yumennos (living stars and nature spirits) intervene to hold the demons at bay so the protagonists can have a chance at victory. But after that, it's all on them. That's all the help they get.
A more dramatic example: I've planned for the series's grand finale to feature the heroes going up against the villainess and her army, who happen to be backed up by a demonic legion of the damned. Obviously it's impossible for my mere mortal protagonists to take on a host of demons, so the Yumennos (living stars and nature spirits) intervene to hold the demons at bay so the protagonists can have a chance at victory. But after that, it's all on them. That's all the help they get.
Feo Takahari
Auror
There's a running gag in Candorville that whenever a priest prays to God, asking if he should do some clearly immoral thing to raise money for the church, a blackout occurs. When he asks if he should keep silent about some rigged voting machines, it becomes an actual plot point--the machines wipe their records in the event of a blackout, and only one person in the entire district used a paper ballot. I think this was well-foreshadowed and pretty funny.
On the other end of the spectrum, one of the major characters in Small Gods is a weak little tortoise that just happens to be a depowered deity. Rather than being a passive figure staring down from above, he has a clear personality and undergoes character development as the story proceeds. Even when calling up divine wrath (or attempting to, at least), he's never reduced to a living I-Win button.
I think the lesson to be learned is that active gods should have personalities, motivations, and maybe even a sense of humor.
On the other end of the spectrum, one of the major characters in Small Gods is a weak little tortoise that just happens to be a depowered deity. Rather than being a passive figure staring down from above, he has a clear personality and undergoes character development as the story proceeds. Even when calling up divine wrath (or attempting to, at least), he's never reduced to a living I-Win button.
I think the lesson to be learned is that active gods should have personalities, motivations, and maybe even a sense of humor.
It all depends on what expectations have been sent. A deus ex machina typically refers to some unexpected, fortuitous event that saves the characters. If the author has set the stage to demonstrate the gods are active players and the action of the god follows rationally, then I don't have a problem with it.
- Thread starter
- #11
Mindfire
Istar
If I wanted someone to come into my threads, mindlessly agree with me, and then hand out rep points, I'd just make a shill account. And then I'd get banned. So yes, express your opinions, even if they disagree with mine. Things are more interesting that way.
WyrdMystic
Inkling
You are so right. I agree with everthing you say. PING PING PING
- Thread starter
- #13
Mindfire
Istar
Myth WeaverDeities and direct divine intervention are monstrously difficult to convincingly pull off.
George RR Martin strongly recommends against it.
Fiest did it sucessfully a couple times in 'Riftwar' - and flopped pretty badly at it sequils to that series.
Saberhagen in his 'swords' books did it fairly well - but his deities were fading away without realizing it, and they seldom became directly involved.
Sauron, in Tolkiens 'Lord of the Rings', is to all intents and purposes a deity.
Erikson, in his Malazan books, has whole slews of demi-god level deities - several of which get killed.
Deities directly involve themselves in no small number of the TSR novels. In my view the appearances are usually flops.
So..going from this and similiar stories...
I can see only a few cases where direct divine involvement could actually work without tanking the whole story:
1) The disguised god - a person known to the characters is really the avatar of a deity.
2) Sharply limited deities - the gods who chose to become involved in mortal affairs or are allowed to are only marginally more powerful than say...a competent sorcerer. Or the powers they influence are 'narrow'. In the ancient world, a number of prominent people were promoted to demi-god status after their deaths - Buddha being a prime example. The 'crippled' or 'exiled' God is another example of a 'limited' deity.
3) Obtaining divine intervention is a major plot point - the God is testing his or her followers, to see if they are 'worthy'. The characters are at least somewhat aware of this.
However, while direct divine intervention CAN work in these situations, it is still difficult to pull off. It raises questions as to just what exactly a deity is.
George RR Martin strongly recommends against it.
Fiest did it sucessfully a couple times in 'Riftwar' - and flopped pretty badly at it sequils to that series.
Saberhagen in his 'swords' books did it fairly well - but his deities were fading away without realizing it, and they seldom became directly involved.
Sauron, in Tolkiens 'Lord of the Rings', is to all intents and purposes a deity.
Erikson, in his Malazan books, has whole slews of demi-god level deities - several of which get killed.
Deities directly involve themselves in no small number of the TSR novels. In my view the appearances are usually flops.
So..going from this and similiar stories...
I can see only a few cases where direct divine involvement could actually work without tanking the whole story:
1) The disguised god - a person known to the characters is really the avatar of a deity.
2) Sharply limited deities - the gods who chose to become involved in mortal affairs or are allowed to are only marginally more powerful than say...a competent sorcerer. Or the powers they influence are 'narrow'. In the ancient world, a number of prominent people were promoted to demi-god status after their deaths - Buddha being a prime example. The 'crippled' or 'exiled' God is another example of a 'limited' deity.
3) Obtaining divine intervention is a major plot point - the God is testing his or her followers, to see if they are 'worthy'. The characters are at least somewhat aware of this.
However, while direct divine intervention CAN work in these situations, it is still difficult to pull off. It raises questions as to just what exactly a deity is.
WyrdMystic
Inkling
WyrdMystic
Inkling
Its not just about dieties, they can be used as applicable in the story. Whether or not they should get a hero from a scrape or not? If you want to look at successful cases of Deus Ex machina, look no further than Greek Mythology - Jason and the Argonauts, Clash of the Titans - even Percy Jackson. The Gods get themselves involved, but it doesn't stop the hero from being a hero. I think the key to this success is an opposing 'Deus Ex' type force that uses divine intervention to hinder.
- Thread starter
- #17
Mindfire
Istar
Wouldn't that be "Diabolus Ex"?
WyrdMystic
Inkling
Probably. One cancelled out the other leaving the hero to be a hero.
shangrila
Inkling
I'd do my best to avoid this kind of thing. Heroes have to solve the problems themselves to be heroes, more or less, and having a god come in and simply wipe the problem away with a wave of their hand could make many readers feel cheated.
MystiqueRain
Troubadour
Avoid it unless absolutely necessary. I'd actually feel better about the usage if the divine being that interfered appeared before the situation or was referenced to the point of being extremely important to the plot. Then the being appearing before the character would make more sense. As mentioned somewhere above, the idea of random angels popping out of nowhere just doesn't float my boat very well.
