Editorial help with a YA fantasy 300,000 word count

[MAF4612]

So I'm in potentially the final draft pre-querying of a YA fantasy I've been writing for what feels like my whole life at this point. it is Book 1 of 4, the major problem is book 1 stands currently at 300,000 words, which unless you're Brandon Sanderson will never see the light of day.

Now before anyone suggests splitting the book in two, it can't be, this is story 1 which sets up the everything for the rest of the series.

I know I have pacing issues and potentially too much worldbuilding which I thought I addressed with this final draft, the thing is none of the chapters are filler chapters every chapter is an instigator or foreshadower to things to come and relevant to the story......and I need help!!!!!

Maybe there are communities that can help me weave through this , or recommended editors or editing sites or other resources I don't know.
I know you can hire editors but for this number of word count it's going to cost an arm and leg.
Because it will be the end of me if I have to edit this again.... I'm going to lose my mind.

Thank you to anyone who answers.

 

[Mad Swede]

So I'm in potentially the final draft pre-querying of a YA fantasy I've been writing for what feels like my whole life at this point. it is Book 1 of 4, the major problem is book 1 stands currently at 300,000 words, which unless you're Brandon Sanderson will never see the light of day.

Now before anyone suggests splitting the book in two, it can't be, this is story 1 which sets up the everything for the rest of the series.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to say it anyway. You need to either split this up or lose a lot of text. Like about 2/3 of it. No publisher I've come across will take a debut novel of any sort which is more than about 110 000 words in length.

I don't write YA, but I've been told that you should aim for 90 000 words as the upper limit for a first YA book.

I know I have pacing issues and potentially too much worldbuilding which I thought I addressed with this final draft, the thing is none of the chapters are filler chapters every chapter is an instigator or foreshadower to things to come and relevant to the story......and I need help!!!!!

Maybe there are communities that can help me weave through this , or recommended editors or editing sites or other resources I don't know.
I know you can hire editors but for this number of word count it's going to cost an arm and leg.
Because it will be the end of me if I have to edit this again.... I'm going to lose my mind.

Thank you to anyone who answers.

I think that perhaps you need to take a step or two back from this and ask yourself a few questions.

What is the overarching story arc for all your intended books? How is this arc split up across your four planned books, and can you further split it up across more than four books?

For this book, what does the story arc and any sub-arcs look like? Could you split any sub-arcs into their own books?

You will have some character arcs, so how do those develop, and do they go across the various books? Where could you divide these arcs so that you can split the story into shorter books?

To me, answering these questions might help you divide this up into shorter books without losing the various instigating and foreshadowing events you need for the whole series to work. You may find that you need to move some of these events within the overall arc as a result, or that you can combine some of them. Splitting the story up may also help you sort out your pacing issues, which in my experience is always easier in shorter texts.

 

[Diana Silver]

You mention all the rewrite work you've done so far, but you don't mention how much input from proofreadesr you've had up until this point. Losing 2/3 may sound daunting and impossible, but it isn't necessarily. We love our darlings, and when no one but you has looked at the text critically, all those hundreds of wheels can feel essential to the cart. It's to be seen if that holds up in reality. I say this especially since you mentioed

I know I have pacing issues and potentially too much worldbuilding which I thought I addressed with this final draft, the thing is none of the chapters are filler chapters every chapter is an instigator or foreshadower to things to come and relevant to the story.....

... which brings up thoughts in my head like: worldbuilding is not story, and: relevant is not the same as essential...

I know you can hire editors but for this number of word count it's going to cost an arm and leg.

Absolutely right. And anyway, the more efficient thing to do at this point is to work through it and stick at it yourself. That's not only cheaper but lands you with more skills in the end. If you're blue in the face from editing, maybe put it in a drawer for a little bit. Free-write a short story, or pick up gardening for a week or two. Then come back to it.

But yeah... I'm left with the main question: how many proofreaders have had a look at some of your chapters, or at the verbosity of your prose in general? Open question - could be you had a lot of input already and others agree with you that 100% of the chapters, descriptions and worldbuilding were essential to the story...

 

[JBCrowson]

I had almost exactly your issue when I'd plotted out my series (the first of many time). I have about 15 plot arcs that cross each other, and have many common characters, locations and partially shared back stories. What I did - which may or may not work for you, is I ruthlessly pruned back to 4 arcs. Those are the main problem/solution of the MC; the main problem/solution of the world as a whole; 2 other arcs whose resolution is essential to the resolution of the other 2, and whose themes are aligned with the main series theme. Even with that cutting I went from 5 books to six. If/when I get round to finishing the main set I aim to turn those cut arcs into their own books.
How did I decide what to cut and what not? I did it in stages.
I made the first book only about the MC - essentially the reader meets the MC, and sees that the world has a problem that needs solving. That meant a lot of the other threads would impinge on the MC in confusing ways when their travels take them further afield later. So I knew I needed to cut out a bunch of stuff.
I have several non human, animal based races in my world, those arcs that dealt solely with those animal based races I cut out, as, to do those races justice large sections of the books would have had to be essentially from completely alien viewpoints (eg describing scenes seen with compound eyes of a bee, or the eight eyes of a spider; the scent communications of the ant folk). I figured if I could capture that 'otherness' it would make those sections unappealing or inaccessible to a lot of people, but if I didn't capture the 'otherness' I would never be creatively satisfied.
Next I looked at what arcs could stand alone as their own tales in the world - those came right out.
I then looked at each of the remaining threads and found a bunch that were stuff happening on other continents that eventually impact either the MC or the world, but had their own geography and characters. They got summarised in a variety of ways - espionage reports, survivors tales, chats between the gods and so on, but with no live action / VP time devoted to them.
So little by little I whittled it down to a manageable bunch of arcs with more consistent characters, geography and themes - and enough extras to keep me writing at my current rate the rest of my life.
Whether you want to be traditionally published plays into it, because as Mad Swede said, publishers and agents are much less willing to gamble on a 300k newbie. But Stevern Erikson, Robert Jordan managed it, so it can happen.
I hope this helps you at this point on your journey. Ultimately it is your story and it is up to you to make it work or find a compromise you can live with.

 

[Karlin]

It is a little hard for me to relate, as I can't write anything that long. 70 or 80K is about as much As I can handle.

Still, even if you have several story arcs woven together- I would think it could work to have one or two arcs reach a conclusion, and leave the rest open for the future volumes.

Have you had any friends or relatives read it, or part of it?

 

[pmmg]

I dont know what to tell you. If you feel its insanity to continue, and every scene is essential, then self publish and call it done. Or accept that it will never be published.

 

[ThinkerX]

Find a beta reader or three. My suspicion is that they will recommend cuts and rewrites.

At this point, the self-pub eBook route is your only option, because 300K is about 100K longer than Amazon or Draft2Digital will go for.

 

[skip.knox]

Try this: look at your current library. How many of the books you have and love are 300k? More to the point, how many 300k books did you read when you were 15?

Are you still sure of your audience?

 

[Prince of Spires]

First, take a deep breath. Let it out.

Now, congratulate yourself. You've written a 300k novel. And completed it. It's a feat few people manage, and it's worth celebrating.

Once you've done that, there are a few ways forward. In my opinion, they all start with setting the book aside. Put it down, forget about it for 3 months, and write something else. Start on the sequel or write a stand-alone or a few short stories you always wanted to write. Doesn't matter too much, just something that is not your current novel.

During those 3 months, you could look for beta readers if you want. Finding people willing to read a whole, unpublished 300k novel might be hard. However, nothing will beat receiving feedback from others. If you go down this route, then you're probably looking to swap with other writers. As in, you beta-read their work while they read yours.

After the 3 months are over, return to your novel (if you feel like it). At this stage, you're not going to be editing it. Instead, you're going to try to read it as a reader would. So just start at page 1, and start reading. Make notes. What parts are exciting, what parts are boring, where are you confused and so on? If you can, then after each chapter you read, make notes on what plot lines were addressed in the chapter. If this interferes with you being a reader, you can also do this during a second read of the book. That just takes a bit more time.

Once you finish reading, you will have 2 things. Firstly, an idea how good the book actually is and which parts need work. And secondly, you will have a plot map of your novel.

With these in hand, as well as the beta-reader feedback, you have a few choices to make. With all these choices, realize that no publisher is going to accept your 300k YA novel. The risk is too high for them. My feeling is that they wouldn't even bother opening the manuscript. They'll just auto-reject it at that wordcount. That's simply the harsh truth of today's publishing world. (I know some fantasy authors publish longer books, however, none of them are debuts. It simply doesn't happen).

This leaves a few other options:
- You could indie publish your novel. There is nothing wrong with this. Some of today's most succesful authors are self-published. It's a very viable alternative. Research some of the different options. Personally, with a 300k novel, I would probably self-publish on Amazon and enroll it in KDP select.
- You could edit it. Based on your findings, your notes, and the beta reader feedback, you can see where you need to improve it.
- You could split it up. JBCrowson has some good tips on what to do. Your notes on the plot lines per chapter can help a lot here.
- You could shelve the novel and just write the next one.

Now, this last option might feel wrong, but it's a very viable thing to do. A lot of writers have finished novels that just aren't good enough. They've shelved them and moved on to a new project. Brandons Sanderson wrote 14 novels before one was picked up for publishing. First novels often aren't very good (or just downright bad...). I know it can feel like a waste, but that's not true at all. Rather, look at it like training.

Personally, I would look at the feedback I'd receive from beta readers, and make a decision based on that. If they like it, then I would indie-publish it. If they don't, then I would shelf the project and just move on to the next. Ideas are cheap. And writing a new novel is probably faster than trying to fix a broken 300k novel.

 

[MAF4612]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to say it anyway. You need to either split this up or lose a lot of text. Like about 2/3 of it. No publisher I've come across will take a debut novel of any sort which is more than about 110 000 words in length.

I don't write YA, but I've been told that you should aim for 90 000 words as the upper limit for a first YA book.

I think that perhaps you need to take a step or two back from this and ask yourself a few questions.

What is the overarching story arc for all your intended books? How is this arc split up across your four planned books, and can you further split it up across more than four books?

For this book, what does the story arc and any sub-arcs look like? Could you split any sub-arcs into their own books?

You will have some character arcs, so how do those develop, and do they go across the various books? Where could you divide these arcs so that you can split the story into shorter books?

To me, answering these questions might help you divide this up into shorter books without losing the various instigating and foreshadowing events you need for the whole series to work. You may find that you need to move some of these events within the overall arc as a result, or that you can combine some of them. Splitting the story up may also help you sort out your pacing issues, which in my experience is always easier in shorter texts.

Hi Mad Swede,
Thank you for the reply I really appreciate it.

I have been asking around and have received a lot of helpful advice, I definitely need to consider in more depth the overall story arc, what is vital for the story. I think the problem I have is wanting to show all the elements of the world building and have noticed I repeat many things again which has added this major wordcount to the the first half of this book, I definitely need to cut the chapters down at the beginning to the basics of the setting so I can get to the crux of the story much quicker.
Much appreciated

 

[MAF4612]

You mention all the rewrite work you've done so far, but you don't mention how much input from proofreadesr you've had up until this point. Losing 2/3 may sound daunting and impossible, but it isn't necessarily. We love our darlings, and when no one but you has looked at the text critically, all those hundreds of wheels can feel essential to the cart. It's to be seen if that holds up in reality. I say this especially since you mentioed



... which brings up thoughts in my head like: worldbuilding is not story, and: relevant is not the same as essential...



Absolutely right. And anyway, the more efficient thing to do at this point is to work through it and stick at it yourself. That's not only cheaper but lands you with more skills in the end. If you're blue in the face from editing, maybe put it in a drawer for a little bit. Free-write a short story, or pick up gardening for a week or two. Then come back to it.

But yeah... I'm left with the main question: how many proofreaders have had a look at some of your chapters, or at the verbosity of your prose in general? Open question - could be you had a lot of input already and others agree with you that 100% of the chapters, descriptions and worldbuilding were essential to the story...

Hi Diana thank you for replying

I've had the initial chapters looked at and I reduced them by 10,000 words, and I was made aware of my pacing issue with those initial chapters, but perhaps have not gone into a deep dive cutting of them. I'm realising the more I edit that the world building is naturally coming out as the story progresses and so I perhaps don't need all this worldbuilding build up at the beginning.

All these comments are opening my senses slowly, so thank you again really appreciate it.

 

[MAF4612]

I had almost exactly your issue when I'd plotted out my series (the first of many time). I have about 15 plot arcs that cross each other, and have many common characters, locations and partially shared back stories. What I did - which may or may not work for you, is I ruthlessly pruned back to 4 arcs. Those are the main problem/solution of the MC; the main problem/solution of the world as a whole; 2 other arcs whose resolution is essential to the resolution of the other 2, and whose themes are aligned with the main series theme. Even with that cutting I went from 5 books to six. If/when I get round to finishing the main set I aim to turn those cut arcs into their own books.
How did I decide what to cut and what not? I did it in stages.
I made the first book only about the MC - essentially the reader meets the MC, and sees that the world has a problem that needs solving. That meant a lot of the other threads would impinge on the MC in confusing ways when their travels take them further afield later. So I knew I needed to cut out a bunch of stuff.
I have several non human, animal based races in my world, those arcs that dealt solely with those animal based races I cut out, as, to do those races justice large sections of the books would have had to be essentially from completely alien viewpoints (eg describing scenes seen with compound eyes of a bee, or the eight eyes of a spider; the scent communications of the ant folk). I figured if I could capture that 'otherness' it would make those sections unappealing or inaccessible to a lot of people, but if I didn't capture the 'otherness' I would never be creatively satisfied.
Next I looked at what arcs could stand alone as their own tales in the world - those came right out.
I then looked at each of the remaining threads and found a bunch that were stuff happening on other continents that eventually impact either the MC or the world, but had their own geography and characters. They got summarised in a variety of ways - espionage reports, survivors tales, chats between the gods and so on, but with no live action / VP time devoted to them.
So little by little I whittled it down to a manageable bunch of arcs with more consistent characters, geography and themes - and enough extras to keep me writing at my current rate the rest of my life.
Whether you want to be traditionally published plays into it, because as Mad Swede said, publishers and agents are much less willing to gamble on a 300k newbie. But Stevern Erikson, Robert Jordan managed it, so it can happen.
I hope this helps you at this point on your journey. Ultimately it is your story and it is up to you to make it work or find a compromise you can live with

JBCrowson, thank you so much for this, you've hit the nail on the head, I have I suppose a number of arcs with many non-human races and you want to give them justice, I think I'm also giving more attention than I should be to elements that will be relevant to the other books and perhaps need to hint at it rather than given it undying attention in the paragraphs... I have noticed in the second half of the book my writing is tight and more precise which I need to bring to the first half. I think summarising certain setting and events is key you're right.

Thank you again appreciate you taking the time to reply

 

[MAF4612]

It is a little hard for me to relate, as I can't write anything that long. 70 or 80K is about as much As I can handle.

Still, even if you have several story arcs woven together- I would think it could work to have one or two arcs reach a conclusion, and leave the rest open for the future volumes.

Have you had any friends or relatives read it, or part of it?

Thank you Karlin for the reply, I have had a writing mentor and a friend look at initial chapters I've gotten great feedback but I guess they don't realise its standing at 300k so they're comments relate to the writing, but my writing mentor did make me aware of my pacing issue which is why I believe some of the issues lie and probably too much world building.
Appreciate your reply thank you.

 

[MAF4612]

First, take a deep breath. Let it out.

Now, congratulate yourself. You've written a 300k novel. And completed it. It's a feat few people manage, and it's worth celebrating.

Once you've done that, there are a few ways forward. In my opinion, they all start with setting the book aside. Put it down, forget about it for 3 months, and write something else. Start on the sequel or write a stand-alone or a few short stories you always wanted to write. Doesn't matter too much, just something that is not your current novel.

During those 3 months, you could look for beta readers if you want. Finding people willing to read a whole, unpublished 300k novel might be hard. However, nothing will beat receiving feedback from others. If you go down this route, then you're probably looking to swap with other writers. As in, you beta-read their work while they read yours.

After the 3 months are over, return to your novel (if you feel like it). At this stage, you're not going to be editing it. Instead, you're going to try to read it as a reader would. So just start at page 1, and start reading. Make notes. What parts are exciting, what parts are boring, where are you confused and so on? If you can, then after each chapter you read, make notes on what plot lines were addressed in the chapter. If this interferes with you being a reader, you can also do this during a second read of the book. That just takes a bit more time.

Once you finish reading, you will have 2 things. Firstly, an idea how good the book actually is and which parts need work. And secondly, you will have a plot map of your novel.

With these in hand, as well as the beta-reader feedback, you have a few choices to make. With all these choices, realize that no publisher is going to accept your 300k YA novel. The risk is too high for them. My feeling is that they wouldn't even bother opening the manuscript. They'll just auto-reject it at that wordcount. That's simply the harsh truth of today's publishing world. (I know some fantasy authors publish longer books, however, none of them are debuts. It simply doesn't happen).

This leaves a few other options:
- You could indie publish your novel. There is nothing wrong with this. Some of today's most succesful authors are self-published. It's a very viable alternative. Research some of the different options. Personally, with a 300k novel, I would probably self-publish on Amazon and enroll it in KDP select.
- You could edit it. Based on your findings, your notes, and the beta reader feedback, you can see where you need to improve it.
- You could split it up. JBCrowson has some good tips on what to do. Your notes on the plot lines per chapter can help a lot here.
- You could shelve the novel and just write the next one.

Now, this last option might feel wrong, but it's a very viable thing to do. A lot of writers have finished novels that just aren't good enough. They've shelved them and moved on to a new project. Brandons Sanderson wrote 14 novels before one was picked up for publishing. First novels often aren't very good (or just downright bad...). I know it can feel like a waste, but that's not true at all. Rather, look at it like training.

Personally, I would look at the feedback I'd receive from beta readers, and make a decision based on that. If they like it, then I would indie-publish it. If they don't, then I would shelf the project and just move on to the next. Ideas are cheap. And writing a new novel is probably faster than trying to fix a broken 300k novel.

Firstly, thank you your highness for taking the time to reply I really appreciate the advice and bless you for the support. I can't believe I wrote this much

You make great points and the options you've laid out are all valid, I think even if it kills I am going to go back with some serious editing. I see the novel as a whole now the elements and what is relevant to the story arc. if after this final brutal cut I still find the word count too high I'm going to have to get serious beta feedback and then see where I am after that. This fourth/ fifth round of editing will be brutal but hopefully make it better.

Thank you so much again, much love to you Prince.

 

[SinghSong]

So I'm in potentially the final draft pre-querying of a YA fantasy I've been writing for what feels like my whole life at this point. it is Book 1 of 4, the major problem is book 1 stands currently at 300,000 words, which unless you're Brandon Sanderson will never see the light of day.

Now before anyone suggests splitting the book in two, it can't be, this is story 1 which sets up the everything for the rest of the series.

I know I have pacing issues and potentially too much worldbuilding which I thought I addressed with this final draft, the thing is none of the chapters are filler chapters every chapter is an instigator or foreshadower to things to come and relevant to the story......and I need help!!!!!

Maybe there are communities that can help me weave through this , or recommended editors or editing sites or other resources I don't know.
I know you can hire editors but for this number of word count it's going to cost an arm and leg.
Because it will be the end of me if I have to edit this again.... I'm going to lose my mind.

Thank you to anyone who answers.

Does it have to be an actual conventionally-published YA Fantasy novel? Because at that sort of length, and with the sort of ruthless pruning which you say that you've done already, it sounds like you might be better off exploring the possibilities of a couple of alternative formats. For instance, 300k words is pretty much par for the course, or even on the short side, for East Asian epic fantasy novels. But they employ different formats whereby, instead of having a series (a quadrilogy, in your case), consisting of a few novels (subdivided into parts, subdivided into chapters), you have a series that's subdivided into 'box sets', each of which are comprised of a series of individually published, novelette to novella-length (c.8-40k words) books, aka 'light novels'. Wherein each book consists of 3-12 chapters, and roughly corresponds to a specific 'part'/'act' of the overall story.

So thinking about it in more detail, and bearing in mind that with a conventional publishing format, your first book alone's already set to be longer than the first 3 books in the Harry Potter series combined? About the same length as the entire Hunger Games trilogy, and only slightly shorter than the 345k word long Chronicles of Narnia series? Perhaps you should consider thinking 'outside the box' a bit more, employing a less conventional method of serialization, and perhaps sub-dividing up the first book even further? After all, like you said, you're going for a teenage/young adult target audience here. And trying to get published too, by a fiction publishing house. And which format of the two format below do you think is going to be more attractive? Both from the perspective of the 'young adult' readers whom you want to pick it up off the shelves, start reading it and purchase it; and as a commercial venture, both for a fiction publishing house to decide to put it into print, and for a bookstore to decide to stock it on their shelves?

A singular debut novel like Dean Sanderson's The Gathering Storm (which is about the same length as the first in your series looks like it'll be at bare minimum), and which you'll have to try and sell at an RRP of $30 just to give the publisher a hope of 'breaking even', on their print costs and wholesale market-rate discounts to retailers? Or a box set of serialized light novels, like C.S Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia (the entirety of which also adds up to about the same total word count), each of which you could easily set a far more reasonable RRP of $10 or even $8 for, and still generate at least twice the income and net profit from?

If you're also looking to turn a profit on this, or at the very least minimize your potential risks and losses, the latter seems like it'd be both the far more lucrative and less financially risky of those format options. Plus, if "none of the chapters are filler chapters, every chapter is an instigator or foreshadower to things to come and relevant to the story", that sounds as though it should be even more suited to serialization, in the manner of the latter. Means that you should have a bunch of cliffhangers and plot hooks, with which to entice readers to keep on buying the next light novel which you release, and 'complete the box set' for each 'book'/'volume' in your series.

So my advice? Don't just think about splitting it up into two; maybe think about going even further, and splitting it up into somewhere between six and twelve books. Then, you should try marketing it to publishers and/or literary agents as the fully completed and copy-edited first volume in your debut YA fantasy light novel series. With the publisher having full freedom to organize a timetable to publish and release of each novella/light novel (/Part) on a regular basis, perhaps every 6 months or so. And with three more volumes in the works that you've already got fully plotted out, to complete your epic-length fantasy series all the way to the story's ultimate conclusion.

Even as a debut author, you should have them scrambling at the bit to sign you up and offer you a contract with no fees up-front, guaranteed. And worse-case scenario, if they still can't entice enough readers to buy the first few parts of your 'first book', then they'll just start reducing the size of their print-runs (or cancel it early, if their marketing department's utterly incompetent enough that they can't sell any copies at all). In which case, they'll still most likely turn a profit on the venture, or at the very least only have minimal losses.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Post a chapter in critiques. It may be shocking how much wordcount might be cleansed. 2/3, probably not. Most folks I;ve encountered with this issue are trying to do too much and aren't writing tight prose, but that isn't necessarily true.

Any work can be split into multiple books. Tolkien considered LoTR one book.

 

[Karlin]

The Chinese classic novels run about 2,000 pages each (in English). On the other hand they apparently were read or told chapter by chapter in tea houses by professional story tellers. You often see a "stay tuned for the next episode" at the end of a chapter.