How descriptive to be with romantic scenes.

[Finchbearer]

So, I keep coming back to the slight dilemma of just how descriptive I should be when describing the ‘romantic’ elements of my story.

Part of me wants to be really quite descriptive (in a nice non smutty way) whilst another part of me wants to be careful as to how much detail I actually need to get the intimacies of my characters across.

I feel like this element is often an integral part of our humanity, and I think that it can really enrich fiction. The romantic element to my story is important and I want the love interests to be believable.

I know reading about sexuality or actual sex scenes is not everyone’s bag, but for those who have an opinion, it would be helpful.

Keep the language nice please!

 

[FifthView]

Romantic scenes are fight scenes.

No, wait. Hear me out.

The thing that makes fight scenes stand out is often not the actual blows, a particular swing of the fist or sword, how many steps left or right a combatant takes. Nor, usually, does the pattern of blood spatter, the actual direction a gash travels on the body, or other physical detail make a lot of difference to the reader. (Unless it's central to a win or loss.)

Rather, the thoughts and feelings of the characters who are experiencing these things are more important for heightening the scene. The stakes involved also make a huge difference.

The same goes for romantic and sex scenes, imo. I do think that romantic scenes that are not sexual rely a bit more on the physical details, because every tiny thing can signify a whole lot to the characters (and readers.) But then again, it's the effect these have on the characters that is most important.

 

[pmmg]

Well, I find I agree with Fifth a lot, and this is no exception.

I think the key word I read here is 'romantic', cause I think romance is kind of left behind when we get to moving parts. And if romance is the feel you want, I would also not go into a lot of detail about the motions and wobbly parts. Better is to go for what it means, and how it changes things. I think most important is does the description provided fit well with the rest of the immersive nature of the narrative experience. If the tone has been not so graphic and then it becomes so, it may seem a bit out of place next to the rest of it. Conversely, if there has been a fair amount of graphic elements, it might make one wonder, why cut away when its sex? You would have to know that for yourself, cause I dont know the tone of your story.

But, you can have a believable romance without showing all the bedroom scenes and not lose anything from the story for it. And it you can go for the R rating, and maybe it just fits better with the story.

I am guessing you would not be asking if something about having them get close and then fading away was working for you. My own story is not very graphic about sex. There are characters who are engaging, and have loving feelings for each other. I have had sentences like his hands slid over her breasts, and she let him, even kissed him harder for doing so. But I've not gone much further than that. And even the characters who have appeared nude in the story, have not been described in any great detail. I think any savvy reader would know what was taking place, even though the bedroom scenes kind of end before all the clothes are off, and things are a little more than just steamy. For me, I think it works, for you...I could not know. So I would have to direct it back to you, what is your voice? and what do you think is the tone of your story?

But I agree with Fifth. Its the non-graphic stuff that really matters to the story. The feelings before and after, and the meaning it brings to the characters. The graphic details just become the place the book cover gets creased to, but dont usually add more to the story than was already present before it.

 

[Finchbearer]

Both good points made. And I totally agree, because I find a book that has an unbelievable romance in it just plain poor judgment on the part of the writer - and actually I think this is my strength. I think I can write and set characters up to burgeon both believable and meaningful relationships. I love to try and take the reader into the mind of the characters while they are with their love interest, revealing what they are really thinking, not just how they’re acting. It does no good for me to read a scene where I’m just observing something happening from the outside, so I want to try and achieve this as a writer, to bring the reader in.

But with all that said, as far as plot goes, I do have an interesting character who spends quite a lot of time with courtesans, which is distinctly void of any romance, just obviously lots of sex. I actually quite enjoy giving the reader snippets of those encounters, because, well I suppose I love how multi faceted and complex I have made this particular character. He then falls in love with one of my main characters so then the tone of voice has to change to romantic. I really want to make that transition believable and describe those encounters tastefully. Can’t just be a flipped switch.

I think pmmg, you raised the point I was trying to make. My tone of voice is quite graphic in how descriptive I get about the reality of life, I don’t hold back in that respect, so it wouldn’t be random to be descriptive when writing sexy scenes.

I am finding it difficult I think for two main reasons - I really want the reader to enjoy the descriptions of the sexual encounters, and I expect that my audience would be mainly female, so I want the language to be both titillating and beautiful at the same time. Of course where the sex isn’t romantic then I’m happy to describe it for what it is.

The second dilemma for me is that I as the writer really want my own characters to get together, so I really want to know how that goes, in all the detail! But I don’t want to fall into the total smut category.

 

[Queshire]

Hmmm.... I'm bad at writing romances, so most of what I have to say comes from my impressions as a reader. Also, I'm not entirely sure about what you mean by how descriptive so this is mostly my rambling thoughts on romance in writing in general.

Numbered but in no particular order;

1) Make sure the love interest actually does stuff beyond 'be a love interest.' Give them their own life, ambitions, maybe even something important enough to them that they'd risk breaking up with the main character over and make sure they still have this even after getting together with the main character.

I'd say that Ginny Weasley fails this. Other than being a damsel in distress in the second book she never really does too much. For the anime and manga fans out there like myself there's plenty of female leads with neat powers and should be capable in their own right, but they have a trend of winding up as damsels in distress or underperforming compared to the male characters on the team.

2) I don't know how to put this pleasantly, but... when writing someone the protagonist is interested in don't write them as wank material or some prize to be won.

Not to give the impression that Rowling is a bad writer rather than just a bad person, but I was recently made aware of this excerpt from one of her non-Harry Potter works:

And to go back to anime and manga (as that's what I'm most familiar with) in one series the warrior woman who saves the protagonist's life and inspires him to get stronger is introduced like so:

Spoiler

That’s when I see a young girl, no… goddess emerge from behind what’s left of the bull monster. Her thin body is decorated with light blue clothing. Even in armor, she radiates feminine beauty. She stands tall, despite her petite frame. Her bulging twins are packed tightly into a breastplate engraved with a silver emblem. The same emblem graces her wrists and blood-soaked saber. She points the glistening blade downward, the blood dripping harmlessly to the floor. The blond hair hanging down to her waist shines so brightly, I could swear it’s made of real gold. Atop a body that any woman would call delicate perches the face of a sweet, young girl.

I mean, in the second case the series is aimed at teenaged boys and it has the justification that it helps sales, but come on. =_=

3) Despite that, still actually show the characters having an interest in each other instead of just pairing them up because they're the male & female leads.

A quick example of this I saw recently was as simple as describing a male character stretching his back (something that might otherwise be too simple to need description) and the female character immediately turning around. No need to describe the male characters abs or anything like that. The female character's somewhat out of character action is enough to show what's on her mind.

4) If a character is in love with an image then they're not actually in love. We all know those old tired cliches: the manic pixie dream girl or the brooding bad boy that the lady thinks she can change. Well, character depth is good in general and one of the best ways to develop a relationship is to have each character discover the depths on their partner. Actually I've seen this used for drama in story. One partner acuses the other of having constructed this mental image of them that the other partner is in love with and the other partner realizing that... yeah, they don't know the first one as well as they think they do.

 

[Mad Swede]

As a writer I draw a distinction between romance and sex. That's mostly because I don't feel I can write a good sex scene, so I tend to leave my characters just as they climb into bed and let my readers imaginations do the rest.

Romance, though, is a different kettle of fish. To me it starts with some sort of relationship or meeting between two characters and goes from there. There has to be a reason for the characters to fall for one another, and it has to be a reason the readers will accept. If I as the author can establish that then my focus can move on to the way in which the relationship develops as they learn more about one another. That in itself means that both characters need to have their own aims in life, their own desires and fears, so the characters need to have been developed by the time they meet and they also have to go on developing as the plot moves on.

I don't write romance stories, far from it, but I do use romantic relationships as sub-plots and as plot points in order to keep the main plot moving. There are any number of ways an antagonist can use a romantic relationship to threaten, coerce or simply hurt one of the protagonists, and these can be used to develop insights into the various characters, their ethics and their motivations.

 

[Finchbearer]

You’ve raised some really interesting points Quesh, and even if we don’t necessarily write romantic elements or sex scenes, most of us know what we think believable in terms of reading about love interests or scenes that contain a sexual element.

The Rowling excerpt - there are no words, she should definitely stick to writing about muggles and mandrakes. But you know it made me laugh because that accent is almost certainly meant to be a northern English accent, or more specifically a Yorkshire accent…which is my accent. We omit the word ‘the’ after words, so that example would be ‘neet’ instead of ‘need the’. If anyone is out there confused by ‘neet’. I’m sure you understood that anyway.

You raise a very good point of mentioning that female love interests are sometimes only strengthened by a male character, as if they don’t have / no longer need to rely on their own talents or intelligence to get ahead in life. I think sometimes people enter into a successful relationship which for various reasons allows them to develop as people in positive ways, but arguably that is also sometimes the marker for a healthy relationship. But for women specifically, and I should know, I know that in my own marriage, my husband is my biggest cheerleader - and encourages me in my progression in life so to speak, but yes I agree in fiction the woman once with a male partner sometimes becomes the damsel trope and then she becomes superfluous.

 

[Devor]

I'm firmly in the "fade to black" camp when it comes to romance. But I'm usually pretty descriptive with my writing, so even a kiss or something can feel pretty intense. Romance isn't something I think writers should shy away from, though like I said, I prefer to see the scene end at a respectable place.

 

[Finchbearer]

Mad Swede, I’m surprised you draw a distinct line between romance and sex. I mean I agree that you can absolutely have a romance that does not need to include sex in fiction if that more of what you mean?

I would say in fiction, and real life you can have romantic sex. Of course you can have those two elements as separate entities, and you can have sex without a sniff of romance.

 

[Mad Swede]

Mad Swede, I’m surprised you draw a distinct line between romance and sex. I mean I agree that you can absolutely have a romance that does not need to include sex in fiction if that more of what you mean?

I would say in fiction, and real life you can have romantic sex. Of course you can have those two elements as separate entities, and you can have sex without a sniff of romance.

Well, it's that last phrase in your last sentence which makes this so interesting in terms of characterisation and character development.

How do a man and a woman feel about consumating an arranged marriage? If they've met in the run-up maybe it will be OK, but if they haven't? What happens if they don't fancy each other? How do they feel about all this? Do they ever fall in love and if so how does that happen and how does it feel for them?

Or how about a woman working as a hooker? Why is she doing that? Did she have no other choice? How does she see the marks who buy her? Does she worry about what will happens when she gets older and loses her attraction? What does she hope for in life? What about all those marks, why are they there and what do they think? How do those marks see women? If the brothel has a madame, what does she want out of life, and what does she get out of being a madame?

Having a couple of characters fall in love and then fall into bed is in some ways the easy option. Our readers understand that. But those other situations, they aren't as clear cut. And it's the reasons the characters have for doing those other things which make things interesting. You don't need a sex scene to explore those reasons and give your story some real depth, just like you don't need a sex scene to show the love and affection that underpins a real romance.

 

[pmmg]

Since you have said your book tends towards being graphic, then I would be more inclined to include them in greater detail (and secretly/not-so-secretly women kind of like those scenes). As you have a story that has both romantic love and non-romantic love, I would find that an opportunity to investigate both, and try to contrast them against each other. One way I might do this is handle the character with the courtesans more graphically and crudely, and the romantic ones with more attention on the feelings than the moving parts. Course, even the moving parts can be meaningful in a good love story, but I think I might become concerned they all blend together.

If I was going to be graphic, I think I would want to have it early in the story, kind in act 1 so its not surprising in act 3.

I have read plenty of things that had graphic scenes in it that did not make me think the book was a secret way to be smut, but I've also read some that I think were pretending to be a story, but was really smut. I would guess the presentation, and the whole matter of the rest of the story will sift that out. For me, I dont want a smutty story, so I fade away, and even in scenes meant to sexual, I dont intend to dwell on them. I feel, if I did, it would disrupt the tone of the story and take away its meaning and power.

But if I was writing a different type of tale, I dont mind writing those aspects. Its certainly true that some stories need it.

My best advice is, write what's in you and give the story what it needs. It can always be edited or removed later if you come to think differently.

 

[Queshire]

*cough* Being crude with courtesans would be something I'd personally vote against.

 

[Finchbearer]

Pmmg I have described some scenes with the courtesans as very non romantic, but they’re not actually that graphic, just the language is more crude as you say. I think because it’s more mechanical and there are no feelings involved so in that sense, that kind of tone works with that premise.

I think you make a good point in suggesting using the contrast as a means to make each different type of sexy scene more believable and I will probably compare and contrast them together next time I sit and write properly.

I admit I tried reading a couple of smutty books a while ago and they do not appeal at all, it’s just porn in writing, but bad porn and no plot, because the plot is just a means to an end.

 

[pmmg]

If you want, you can send them to me, and I say what I think about the smut-vs-romance scale.

I think romance would focus more on the loving and kissing aspects, and the courtesans on moving parts. But...i'd have to have it before me to know how I would really handle it.

 

[Finchbearer]

If you want, you can send them to me, and I say what I think about the smut-vs-romance scale.

I think romance would focus more on the loving and kissing aspects, and the courtesans on moving parts. But...i'd have to have it before me to know how I would really handle it.

I think they would be wildly out of context to just show you the ‘getting down to it’ scenes, you would need to whole picture to understand of get a feel for those characters I think. Shall I send you the published book though in 2042?

I think on slightly separate note, the history and definition of a courtesan is not just a high class prostitute, or a hooker, they were usually highly educated and maybe even classed as one of the aristocracy. Or they were at least able to attend court and converse with those of High or noble standing with ease. They would need to blend in. My character is nobility, and so he liaises with three different courtesans. They would have also have kept a limited amount of clients, and also would have had to (ideally) be disease free. If they had a benefactor, they would have also been kept well dressed and would have been able to move in influential circles.

 

[pmmg]

They might be, but I would not be looking to fix anything, just give an opinion on whether it feels romantic or smutty. I'll leave my offer open if you ever change your mind.

2042 is ambitious

 

[LittleOwlbear]

To be honest, I like to write smut too, as much as I like to write romantic sex, and one of the upsides of writing adult characters and couples is that they don't blush and act like a teenager in bed, and hopefully not in other aspects of communication with their partner.
Even my asexual person doesn't act like a teenager, who is ashamed of other people talking about sex around them, at least not, if they don't go into heavy detail haha. But a- or demisexual people are often portrayed like they are "pure". As a demisexual person: hell no.

So personally I like it, when a text finds a balance between the actual sex and the emotional part, if there is some emotional part at play.
Don't overromanticize it either. Maybe I'm too unromantic, but sex is not the coalition of two souls finding one body or stuff I read, although it depends how romantic your characters are and if they wear the pink glasses maybe.

Tho usually I don't write sex scenes that are just one night stands or a night with a prostitute or anything. My protagonist now does this sometimes because they view sex the same as a good meal or anything pleasurable but ordinary thing in daily life, so it's just mentioned in a sentence or two.

And please don't use synonyms like "love lance" or stuff I already read and couldn't stop laughing.

Another thing I often witnessed in books: people usually talk while having sex. Before they do it, after they did it and also a bit while they are doing it, especially if they don't know yet what their partner likes and all. People in books often remain surprisingly silent and just moan a name or anything, or just a give random "I love you" out of nowhere.
It also gives the couple a lot of extra depth, if they are asking for consent before doing certain things, ask if they should keep going etc, imo. That's not just telling you love and you care about someone, that's the showing.

Not to give the impression that Rowling is a bad writer rather than just a bad person, but I was recently made aware of this excerpt from one of her non-Harry Potter works:

Jesus fucking Christ. It's like a macho man wrote this, it's so awful. What a terrible day to have eyes.

 

[Rexenm]

It has to be a fantasy, because not only are the readers alone, they are by themselves. I had a friend in school, write a story about our pets, and he later whited it out. That was funnier still, we never let him forget that.

There are some issues to observe, to do with taste. I don’t want to lump the responsibility onto another member’s plate - are they enemies, are they going to die, do they hate each other. I think that is the key difference, and it may start off as fun and games, but it might end up a rat in someone’s soup.

I’d like to write a romance, I think it would be a challenge. I also respect there is a difference between show not tell, and show and tell.

 

[Finchbearer]

To be honest, I like to write smut too, as much as I like to write romantic sex, and one of the upsides of writing adult characters and couples is that they don't blush and act like a teenager in bed, and hopefully not in other aspects of communication with their partner.
Even my asexual person doesn't act like a teenager, who is ashamed of other people talking about sex around them, at least not, if they don't go into heavy detail haha. But a- or demisexual people are often portrayed like they are "pure". As a demisexual person: hell no.

So personally I like it, when a text finds a balance between the actual sex and the emotional part, if there is some emotional part at play.
Don't overromanticize it either. Maybe I'm too unromantic, but sex is not the coalition of two souls finding one body or stuff I read, although it depends how romantic your characters are and if they wear the pink glasses maybe.

Tho usually I don't write sex scenes that are just one night stands or a night with a prostitute or anything. My protagonist now does this sometimes because they view sex the same as a good meal or anything pleasurable but ordinary thing in daily life, so it's just mentioned in a sentence or two.

And please don't use synonyms like "love lance" or stuff I already read and couldn't stop laughing.

Another thing I often witnessed in books: people usually talk while having sex. Before they do it, after they did it and also a bit while they are doing it, especially if they don't know yet what their partner likes and all. People in books often remain surprisingly silent and just moan a name or anything, or just a give random "I love you" out of nowhere.
It also gives the couple a lot of extra depth, if they are asking for consent before doing certain things, ask if they should keep going etc, imo. That's not just telling you love and you care about someone, that's the showing.





Jesus fucking Christ. It's like a macho man wrote this, it's so awful. What a terrible day to have eyes.

‘Love lance’ is a no from me!

 

[pmmg]

Jeez...How am I going to remove this tattoo