how did the nobles treat their personal servants.

[valiant12]

i'm sure that everyone have noticed that kings and other people with political power receive disproportionately more attention from historians than the people who washed there dishes, cook their food, babysit their children, etc. Can somebody please give me some information how to write realistic master-servant relations.
Things that interest me;
-are servants in industrial societies treated better than those in preindustrial
-what kinds of skills and traits would be most sought-after when hiring a servant.
-how much is a servant paid compared with a factory worker, foot soldier, mercenary, blacksmith, woodcutter, etc

 

[X Equestris]

As far as the relationship, it would have varied. Some would treat their people well, others wouldn't. Just like your boss at work might be nice to his employees, or he might be a jerk.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

Couple of questions

1. Are we talking early industrial before significant labor laws or are we talking newer industrial with labor laws?

2. What kind of servant are we talking about? Cooks need one skill butlers need another.

3. The pay question again depends on the servant, their skill, and experience.

 

[Russ]

This is a very complicated and interesting question.

First I have to agree with XE above, a lot of it is personality driven on both ends.

It is hard to generalize about "preindustrial" because it covers just so much area (Romans, Egyptians, Medieval France, Vikings etc) but I would suggest that preindustrial societies treated servants better (my area is medieval primarily) because the relationships were personal in nature and often multi-generational, and with industrialization we began to see the idea that workers or people as disposable economic units come into vogue which allowed employers to act more harshly and treat people as sub human.

Medieval nobles (in particular) were well trained in the idea of noblesse d'oblige (sp?), the idea that for their god given exalted position they had many responsibilities to the people they ruled over. And while there were notable exceptions who get a lot of attention, many nobles did indeed work very hard and even sacrifice for the good of their subjects. This was particularly true in central europe.

If you are hiring a personal servant the skills vary with the role. In cultures where nobles were illiterate, or close, tutors or book keepers were highly valued. People who could administer your holdings effectively were very highly sought after and often very well rewarded. People who could cook well and good story tellers, poets and artists often were highly sought after.

Nobles are also usually concerned with their legacy, so good tutors/educators for their children were very important and valued. I think this trend stretches all the way from ancient Greece to the end of the medieval period at least.

Pay would be all over the map because "nobles" were of very different levels of wealth. One noble family might have very small holdings and be dirt poor, while others might have money to burn, and pay would vary with that. A king or emperor (usually) could pay much more than a local knight. If you need more details on this I could have a look and find you some comparisons for the middle ages if you give me some context to work with.

 

[Jabrosky]

It is hard to generalize about "preindustrial" because it covers just so much area (Romans, Egyptians, Medieval France, Vikings etc) but I would suggest that preindustrial societies treated servants better (my area is medieval primarily) because the relationships were personal in nature and often multi-generational, and with industrialization we began to see the idea that workers or people as disposable economic units come into vogue which allowed employers to act more harshly and treat people as sub human.

I would argue that would hinge on whether pre-industrial societies saw the servants as fully human. If those servants were from, say, different nationalities (especially ones with a history of conflict with their superiors'), in many cases that might have affected the treatment they received for the worse. I'm not even all that sure the modern industrial perception of laborers as "subhuman" would have even developed had industrialization not started in certain countries that had already, er, regressed in their benevolence towards human laborers since the medieval period, if you get my drift.

 

[Russ]

I would argue that would hinge on whether pre-industrial societies saw the servants as fully human. If those servants were from, say, different nationalities (especially ones with a history of conflict with their superiors'), in many cases that might have affected the treatment they received for the worse. I'm not even all that sure the modern industrial perception of laborers as "subhuman" would have even developed had industrialization not started in certain countries that had already, er, regressed in their benevolence towards human laborers since the medieval period, if you get my drift.

I agree wholeheartedly. As I stated the term "pre-industrial" is just crazy big. My background is European history from ancient Greece to today, with a good deal of US history in the later period.

And he did say servants. In Rome or Greece, most of the people doing work from non Greco-Roman nations would have been slaves. Slaves are a completely different story.

 

[valiant12]

Couple of questions

1. Are we talking early industrial before significant labor laws or are we talking newer industrial with labor laws?

early industrial

2. What kind of servant are we talking about? Cooks need one skill butlers need another.

i'm mostly interested in maids at the moment.Tutors, nannies, cooks, butlers are also interesting but the character i work on at the moment work as a maid.

3. The pay question again depends on the servant, their skill, and experience.[

let's say somebody with no special skills

 

[valiant12]

If you are hiring a personal servant the skills vary with the role. In cultures where nobles were illiterate, or close, tutors or book keepers were highly valued. People who could administer your holdings effectively were very highly sought after and often very well rewarded. People who could cook well and good story tellers, poets and artists often were highly sought after.

Which was more important loyalty or being good at your job?

 

[Russ]

i'm mostly interested in maids at the moment.Tutors, nannies, cooks, butlers are also interesting but the character i work on at the moment work as a maid.

Ah, now this helps a lot. Maids have traditionally been very low on the food chain, very low indeed. In fact medieval records are rife with references to maids and scullery maids being just a small step up from prostitutes. Nannies are very different than maids, they were entrusted with people's children and often formed very close bonds with the lady of the house, a very important advantage. Tutors if they could teach highly sought after skills to your heirs have been worth their weight in gold throughout history.

The value of loyalty v. skill varied by position and environment. If you never heard a secret and just washed the laundry loyalty was no big deal. If you kept the books of the house, or lived in a time when outsiders were trying to harm your employers by bribery or other means, loyalty was much more important.

 

[valiant12]

What are your opinions on the following:
-How would non human races treat their human servants
-How would human treat their non human servants
-How would human mages treat their mundane servants

 

[X Equestris]

What are your opinions on the following:
-How would non human races treat their human servants
-How would human treat their non human servants
-How would human mages treat their mundane servants

I think it's too vague to say for certain without knowing more about the cultures involved. And even in cultures were it tends towards one extreme of treatment or another, there will be a few people who defy that norm.

 

[wordwalker]

Human/nonhuman and mage/nonmage are more factors to work in when you go through all the above reasonings about how the master and the master's society view all of this.

A servant could be treated even worse if the master sees them as a "lowly" race or "mere muggle," or worse still if the servant's race is powerful enough to be a rival to the master's race. (A people that have always been "inferior" would get off better than a member of a defeated or a recently-rising enemy race.) Then again, more responsible or loyalty-seeking masters could see all of that as just more reasons to get past the barriers and win proper respect with their servants.

Meanwhile a servant who's known for racial advantages (like the elven tutor who could guide whole generations of nobles) might be treated very well indeed-- but also have to watch out for getting above their place or seeming like a threat.

 

[Russ]

What are your opinions on the following:
-How would non human races treat their human servants
-How would human treat their non human servants
-How would human mages treat their mundane servants

This really calls for pure speculation, which is I guess why we call it spec fic.

My guess on this is really no better than yours. I think this is where your creative drive as an author has to take over.

My guess though is that there would be huge variability. Have a look at how people treat their dogs for instance and look at the wide range of behaviours you see.

 

[valiant12]

Meanwhile a servant who's known for racial advantages (like the elven tutor who could guide whole generations of nobles) might be treated very well indeed-- but also have to watch out for getting above their place or seeming like a threat.

i think dwarfs will be better employee than classical elves - more down to earth, less arrogant, better work ethic, better at maintaining weapons and dwarven cooks are probably better.

 

[Russ]

i think dwarfs will be better employee than classical elves - more down to earth, less arrogant, better work ethic, better at maintaining weapons and dwarven cooks are probably better.

Yes, but how do you keep them sober? ;-)

 

[skip.knox]

I suggest you have the stick at the wrong end.

Rather than asking how nobles (a class that encompasses every sort of human character) treated servants (another class that encompasses every sort of human character), ask instead how *your* noble treats his/her maid. No matter what sort of relationship you envision, there's historical precedent for it. You don't need to make the history believable, you just need to make the story believable.

That's for fantasy. If you are writing historical fiction set in a particular time and place, then find yourself a comfy chair at the library. You have a lot of reading to do!

I'll add this much. "Maid" is pretty much a post-medieval term, at least in the sense we usually envision. It comes from "maiden" which means unmarried, and derives from a time when young women went from the farm into the city to enter into employment in private homes. Think 17thc and later. While nobles did employ maids, so did middle-class people, especially in the 19thc.

In a medieval noble house, there tended to be female serfs who had household duties. They often were simply called servants (from Latin servus), though variations on maid did exist then as well. They also were often just called "girl". Same for the boys, btw. Knecht, garcon, serving boy. Oh, and lots of modifiers (e.g., stable boy).

But if they're serving dwarves or elves, you have carte blanche to invent whatever the story needs.

 

[valiant12]

I'll add this much. "Maid" is pretty much a post-medieval term, at least in the sense we usually envision. It comes from "maiden" which means unmarried, and derives from a time when young women went from the farm into the city to enter into employment in private homes. Think 17thc and later. While nobles did employ maids, so did middle-class people, especially in the 19thc.

The world where my story take place is post-medieval with some roman, medieval germany, byzantine and maybe some other elements.It's very much work in progress at the moment, but im sure that the term maid dont sound too modern for that world.

 

[valiant12]

Yes, but how do you keep them sober? ;-)

Dwarves drinking more than other races is elven propaganda
Either that or they drink so much that the alcohol in their bloodstream kill all viruses and bacteria giving them the umunity they need to live underground with high population density,
or they drink due to peer pressure

 

[valiant12]

But if they're serving dwarves or elves, you have carte blanche to invent whatever the story needs.

Humans are serving humans, at least that's the plan at the moment.

 

[Devor]

Dwarves drinking more than other races is elven propaganda

It sure is! It's a bigotted stereotype! It's based on the assumption that beer drinkers are nothing but alcoholics, while wine drinkers are "sophisticated." It's real world, anti-German, anti-Irish, anti-beer drinking country bigotry at it's most obtuse.

At least Tolkein knew better. The elves in Mirkwood were the original fantasy drunkards. Damn wine drinkers . . .

I joke, but unfortunately there's probably some truth in that.