How do you manage important story information?

[Incanus]

As I’m going through my initial major story revision, I’m finding that getting the proper information that the reader needs to understand the plot, characters, and the (secondary) world, is one of the trickiest things to deal with.

I like to think that about 8 out of 10 times, I’m putting the info in the right place, saying about as much or as little as is needed at the time, and getting it more or less ‘right’. The other 2 out of 10 have been difficult in one way or another. In a lot of these cases, it is something that I simply neglected to deal with until I reached a point where it became clear that I’m bringing up something that should have been introduced earlier on.

For instance, chapters 6-7 show the first ‘big’ action sequence. I don’t like the idea of pausing the action to explain/introduce a new thing. Much better if it is already known to the reader, and then it can just be referred to in the text without bogging the action down.

But that means going back to chapters 1-5 and looking for some place to have this info come up in a natural way. The plot is pretty tight for the most part, so this is not at all easy to do.

So far, I have avoided scenes with characters going through a morning routine, or sitting down to dinner, or other ‘quiet’ moments. And I’ve avoided info-dumps, with perhaps one borderline instance.

Have any of you been dealing with something like this? If so, I’d be interested in hearing about your experiences, and the solutions you’ve come up with.

 

[pmmg]

As I’m going through my initial major story revision, I’m finding that getting the proper information that the reader needs to understand the plot, characters, and the (secondary) world, is one of the trickiest things to deal with.

I like to think that about 8 out of 10 times, I’m putting the info in the right place, saying about as much or as little as is needed at the time, and getting it more or less ‘right’. The other 2 out of 10 have been difficult in one way or another. In a lot of these cases, it is something that I simply neglected to deal with until I reached a point where it became clear that I’m bringing up something that should have been introduced earlier on.

For instance, chapters 6-7 show the first ‘big’ action sequence. I don’t like the idea of pausing the action to explain/introduce a new thing. Much better if it is already known to the reader, and then it can just be referred to in the text without bogging the action down.

But that means going back to chapters 1-5 and looking for some place to have this info come up in a natural way. The plot is pretty tight for the most part, so this is not at all easy to do.

So far, I have avoided scenes with characters going through a morning routine, or sitting down to dinner, or other ‘quiet’ moments. And I’ve avoided info-dumps, with perhaps one borderline instance.

Have any of you been dealing with something like this? If so, I’d be interested in hearing about your experiences, and the solutions you’ve come up with.

Yep...all of this. Specially in my first novels.

How do I handle it? Well, I tell the story from the POV of what the characters know and are likely to talk about it, so for me, including the world building stuff has been vexing...why, cause my characters don't care. For the most part, I just let it fly, and the characters deal, and when it becomes important, they may go find out or ask questions.

When I do come to were you are at, the story is written and now we are doing the rewrite fixing, sometimes it was like working on a watch were all the springs would pop out every time I had to add something. Even little things, like...I think I need to mention earlier that this character also has a knife on their belt. I say they have a knife, and then....but how come they did not use it in this other scene, and now the whole things needs fixing.

The only answer I found to this is break it good and fix it. And read through it a lot of times to make sure its still smooth.

I think I have written with a style that allows these things that help explain just go unexplained in a deliberate effort, but are presented such that they can be inferred, and explanations the characters need will come later, when they have time or resource to determine it. The first time giants appeared in the story, there was a bit of 'what the heck was that?' But it came after, not before they came into the story.

In all my books, there was only one four paragraph info dumpy part, and I cut it all and removed before I published. Now its just kind of spread over other scenes where characters are speaking.

The thing to know is: You have the skill. You can do it.

 

[Incanus]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, pmmg.

I have something rather like your giants that you mentioned. In my story, that one belongs to the stuff I'm more or less getting right, since it is so central to the plot. The thing that makes that one relatively easy to deal with is that it is new to all the characters, along with the reader.

The hardest info to manage is the stuff ALL the characters already know about and are familiar with, but is unique to my world, and therefore unknown to readers.

I'll use this just-made-up example to illustrate the point: Let's say that pizza is something no reader has ever heard about before, and they know nothing about it. If I have a scene set in a pizza kitchen, why in the world would the chefs describe to each other what a pizza is?

But that's pretty much what I'm going to have to figure out.

The way I usually tackle it is by having them talk about some other topic, and drop in little bits about what pizza is along the way.

You used the word 'infer', and that's exactly what needs to happen. I'm trying to get the reader to pick up on this stuff in a roundabout way. That takes careful thought and planning to get it to work right. Not easy!

 

[pmmg]

I think I am pretty good at knowing, or better, have developed the art of knowing, what can be inferred and what cannot. As much as I can, I like to leave it to be inferred and not spoon fed, so the reader can feel all smart too that they could infer it.

You can trust readers, they know what orcs and giants are, and they know new worlds have histories, and strange words are probably names...Your character may not know what a flying horse is and become really fascinated, but the reader has been there and done that.

 

[pmmg]

I'll use this just-made-up example to illustrate the point: Let's say that pizza is something no reader has ever heard about before, and they know nothing about it. If I have a scene set in a pizza kitchen, why in the world would the chefs describe to each other what a pizza is?

They wouldn't. But if you call it somethings like they all ordered azzipa, which arrived all goey with cheese and sauce, they might infer its just some strange food common on that world.

 

[Incanus]

I wish it were as simple as the flying horse example.

The issue is that I'm not using any stock fantasy races or magic. I have unique inventions that no reader has encountered before. The characters have, though. It's the exact opposite situation. I've developed something rather complex that the characters all understand, but is new for readers.

So in the pizza example, I'd need to explain what dough is, what sauce is, what cheese is, and how they all combine. And I need the chefs to somehow discuss all that without sounding like they are doing it for the benefit of the reader.

That's the challenge.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I wish it were as simple as the flying horse example.

The issue is that I'm not using any stock fantasy races or magic. I have unique inventions that no reader has encountered before. The characters have, though. It's the exact opposite situation. I've developed something rather complex that the characters all understand, but is new for readers.

So in the pizza example, I'd need to explain what dough is, what sauce is, what cheese is, and how they all combine. And I need the chefs to somehow discuss all that without sounding like they are doing it for the benefit of the reader.

That's the challenge.

I think the easiest solution is to utilize another character, which for this I'd call the New Guy. When you bring in a character who is new to the situation or just the story, a lot of information can be slipped to the reader through their curiosity, or even lack thereof. So, the New Guy is training, and they've got a lot of questions, not just about pizza but everything, and you can control the flow of information through the scene.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Personally, when I'm drafting I tend to use the same technique we'd use to eat and elephant: One tidbit at a time. In my process, I have signposts and billboards. Both are aspects of foreshadowing, but are different sizes, importants, and urgencies. A signpost should be subtle, little more than a nudge, but gathered together make for a reveal that can come as a great twist. Billboards are the whack of the shillelagh to the reader's skull. No subtlety, no escape.

I also adore the unreliable narrator. I'm working on a short prequel flash for our next numbered book, and we finally get to lay eyes on a character who's cast a bit of a long shadow across the story, described as bombastic, fiery, and dominating. Thing is, this impression is from the perspective of his young granddaughter and there is a great deal happening that she doesn't see.

Let the games begin.

 

[Karlin]

I wish it were as simple as the flying horse example.

The issue is that I'm not using any stock fantasy races or magic. I have unique inventions that no reader has encountered before. The characters have, though. It's the exact opposite situation. I've developed something rather complex that the characters all understand, but is new for readers.

So in the pizza example, I'd need to explain what dough is, what sauce is, what cheese is, and how they all combine. And I need the chefs to somehow discuss all that without sounding like they are doing it for the benefit of the reader.

That's the challenge.

I'm not at all convinced that the reader needs to know the details of what pizza is. Unless it's central to the story, in which case the details will come out as you go along.

I added a new guy character to my chinese book, not just for the reader, but for the other characters who dont know whats going on.

 

[skip.knox]

I faced something like this in Goblins at the Gates. Because my goblins are not at all to type. I handled this by describing the monsters as they appeared to the characters without naming them. Eventually, my principals (a Roman frontier legion) get close to the initial encounter. They see increasing signs of the presence of something bad. They encounter villagers, who do not speak Latin, and these villagers use a word unfamiliar to the troops. So they do what lots of people do when confronted with something foreign--they mock it. The locals say "cobhellini" or something like it, which the troops soon render as "cobbel cobbel". I gradually make adjustments to that until by the middle of the book I can call them goblins. By that time, the reader has seen my goblins from a distance and up close, so the reader should be recognizing Altearth goblins are non-standard.

Perhaps you could get away with using circumlocutions, at least for that first big battle?

 

[Prince of Spires]

There is no one answer to this of course.

It partially depends on where you are in your book. At the start, you can throw new stuff at the reader. They'll probably assume it's some type of thing and expect you to explain it later. At the end of the book, they probably know the world. If something new shows up then, it will feel like the author pulling a Deus ex Machina because he didn't know how to solve or wrap up his plot.

So if you're before the halfway mark, don't worry about new stuff too much. Just make sure you explain it either just after the event. So if you have a different type of goblin show up in a fight and had no way of explaining that before the fight, then you can finish the fight and have the characters loot the goblins (or whatever) and describe them to the reader that way. Just don't pull this off in your climax, and you're good to go.

Another side is how steep you want your learning curve to be. All books have a learning curve, where the reader needs to learn about your characters and your world and all the rules. They all vary in steepness. Some books are very gentle with their readers, while others explain nothing and just expect the reader to catch up. Harry Potter for instance is very shallow (partially because it's a kid's book). We see the world through the eyes of Harry, start in a average human neighbourhood, and because Harry knows nothing of wizards, we can have all characters explain everything to him. I've been told the Malazan books by Erikson are at the other extreme (though I haven't read them yet). Basically nothing is explained and you just have to figure it out as a reader.

Lastly, when we're in a POV, we're only pretending to be in a character's head. You can still get away with the occasional extra bit of detail or explanation. For instance, when I'm walking through my house, I don't think of almost anything here. But if I were writing about me doing so, I'd still give a few details and remark on stuff that would be important to the story. Ideally, I also use it to show character of course. But it's make-belief.

So the pizza chefs wouldn't describe the pizza to each other. But they can still give enough details to help the reader figure out what's going on. They could remark that the dough feels different, or that some ingredients for the saus are missing. Maybe something feels off about the oven temperature. Or maybe one hurt his wrist and has trouble shaping the pizzas. Give little hints throughout the chapter and hope the reader catches on.

 

[Mad Swede]

A. E. Lowan has already mentioned the new guy, skip.knox has suggested just leaving a developing trail of bread crumbs, as ways to get the information to the reader. However, I think I'd turn the question back to you. Does the reader need to know by that point in the story or can it come later?

I ask because getting to know the how or why of something later on and then understanding what has happened isn't especially unusual even in real life. To take an example, as a young soldier I just did what I was told and didn't really have any idea about what was going on or why. We attacked the enemy, defended positions and just didn't give in. Later, as a junior officer I knew what I and my platoon had to do and how this fitted into the overall plan for the battalion, so I led my troops to the best of my ability. Many years later, after staff college etc, I was leading my brigade in the field and understood much better the overall campaign aims and how we fitted into that. I could also look back and understand what had been going on both when I was a soldier and when I was a junior officer. I also realised that I hadn't needed to know what was going on at those points in time, the understanding of the wider context could wait.

For me it's the same when I'm writing the story. The reader will eventually get to know what has happened and why, but this can be much later. Sometimes the pleasure lies in feeding just enough information to intrigue the reader and draw them further in without giving the whole picture too soon. As with the best whodunnits, some of the reading pleasure comes at the very end when it all seems so obvious in hindsight. I once had an e-mail from a reader who (translated) wrote "You ****! I thought I'd worked it all out then realised you'd led us all round by the nose when I got to the end. And when I read it again I could see all the hints. I hate you. When is the next book due?"

With that written, it does require balance when setting things up in the story. It can't be unfair, so I write the bare bones of the story first then go back and add the details that I think are needed to give the reader context and hint at the wider plot and setting. My aim in doing this is to give both depth to events and the setting, and to gradually build understanding of the overarching plot. As examples, I do this through brief snippets of overheard conversation, short conversations with traders when buying goods, gossip, official proclamations nailed to walls or just things the characters see or experience. If you know your readers you can also play around a bit with their expectations and riff off the conventions of the genre to add small twists.

In my experience it's much easier to do these things in novels, as the length of the story means you can hide the signficance of some things until later in the story whilst using non-significant but equally detailed things as red herrings to mislead the characters and the readers. The balance is much more difficult to achieve in short stories and I find that the hints end up being fewer in number and much less detailed so as to avoid spoiling the reveal.

 

[pmmg]

The characters have, though. It's the exact opposite situation. I've developed something rather complex that the characters all understand, but is new for readers.

You can trust the readers. They have seen strange creatures before.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

You can trust the readers. They have seen strange creatures before.

Seconded. This is very true. Never, ever, assume the reader is less intelligent than you are. I usually go with them all being smarter than me, and I'm usually right. lol Trust them to do the work and bring their own perceptions to the story. They will. And then, once everyone knows everyone is on level... screw with their heads. But carefully.

 

[Incanus]

Lots to think about and respond to here. Great!

The short version is: I am more or less on the right track. Eventually, some beta-readers will help me figure all this out.

I am actually using pretty much every technique mentioned in this thread so far, if in different places, on various subjects. How well remains to be seen…

AE Lowan—I am totally using the ‘new guy’ thing (I have at least two of them in the story), it’s just in relation to other topics than the one vexing me at the moment. There is one topic for which there is absolutely no new guy available. EVERY character knows about this one particular subject, but the reader knows only what has been doled out by this point. (My main new guy also provides info that no others know, so it works both directions.)

I am quite regularly using circumlocution and plugging in bits of info in various ways. This is particularly important throughout the early chapters. I have a portion in Chapter 1 that is like what Prince of Spires mentioned: MC walking through a familiar place, the place is described because it is the first time for the reader. Later, when the character is in the same place there will be little to no description.

The specific info I’m talking about cannot be held back for later, though that is something I’m doing quite regularly with many subjects. Another analogy: If a medieval world has been set up, and a battle ensues, and then one character pulls out a gun and shoots an enemy, I think the reader would be rightly disappointed, frustrated, and would feel cheated. I have something similar-ish going on.

The learning curve—I’m pretty sure I’m somewhere about halfway between Harry Potter, and the Malazan books (I read the ten-book series, but not others). I’m hoping to strike a balance between explaining everything and cheating the reader with too little. It’s very important to me to get this right.

 

[Mad Swede]

The specific info I’m talking about cannot be held back for later, though that is something I’m doing quite regularly with many subjects. Another analogy: If a medieval world has been set up, and a battle ensues, and then one character pulls out a gun and shoots an enemy, I think the reader would be rightly disappointed, frustrated, and would feel cheated. I have something similar-ish going on.

OK, I'll use your gun in a medieval setting as an example of what I try to do. I don't want to cheat the reader so this gun cannot come as a complete surprise. But, I don't want to make it obvious because it will then ruin the readers perception of the characters and their actions. So how best to proceed?

I start with some questions to myself. Does the character know this gun is a weapon and do they know how to use it? If the answer to both is yes, how did they get hold of the gun and does the means of acquisition have any impact on how they feel? If the character knows they're not supposed to have this gun much less use it, or if they've been given the gun for less than honest reasons, then they'll be nervous. Very nervous. Especially if getting caught with the gun will have some unpleasant (read painfully fatal) personal consequences. So that gun, lying in some pack or pocket will be playing on the characters mind. The odd thoughts about the gun, its weight and its shape, what it might do, where it might take him, will be a way of hinting about the existence of the gun to the reader. A sense of tension and nervousness might affect the character and their behaviour, and how others react to them. So other characters might pick up that something is off, further preparing the reader for the use of the gun. As the author I need never call it a gun, I can drop hints about its shape and weight, the sounds it makes, the projectiles it fires, through the nervous thoughts of my character. Little by little, building up to the point where it is used.

 

[Incanus]

My analogy probably could have been a little clearer. Apologies for sending you off in an unintended direction.

I brought that analogy up only to illustrate why I need to set things up beforehand, and can't put it off until after the events.

So, in this analogy, all the characters would be aware of the gun, and would be expecting it. It is the reader who will have been thrown for a loop.

I reached this 'battle' scene and realized there was at least one item I hadn't set up properly. My plan now is to revise chapter 7 and see if there are any more of these issues, and then go back to the earlier chapters (again) and set things up.

I sort of knew going into this that Act I was going to take many revisions just to get it ready for beta readers, much less anyone else.

A cohesive and well-paced secondary-world fantasy novel is very, very hard to do.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I've been thinking on this a bit, and there is another way we do the drip drop of info. We primarily use 3rd Person Limited, Past, and I don't like anything as on-the-nose as directly showing thoughts like other forms of dialogue so I just make them into the narrative and everything is inside the character's head. This gives us a lot of flexibility, since wandering thoughts can touch on anything one is looking at or just going off on random tangents. This also gives us the unreliable narrator, which I adore. I'll use this to misdirect or even flat out lie to the readers. It's great!

Just as an example, this is from Faerie Rising: The First Book of Binding. Winter is one of my favorite unreliable narrators. She's a trauma surgeon and a wizard and more than a little into teaching, and she notices and notes on a whole lot of details. She's also a liar and the reigning Queen of Justification. Bit long, but I want to show how we use all of this to signpost the crap out of this scene.

~~~

Karen gently laid a hand on Winter’s shoulder and moved ahead, dropping slowly until her fingertips brushed the forest floor, head bent low to the scent. Winter felt the feverish heat the therian’s body produced as she passed. She did not seem to notice Winter’s flinch at being touched. “This way,” Karen murmured, half to herself. She led the way a short way off the path and leapt silently down into a shallow ravine, turning to help the wounded wizard descend. Winter ended up sliding on one hip and pine needles, fragrant and sticky, clung to her long dress, her stockings, and caught in the weave of the ruined sweater. Brushing at the mess just made it worse, smearing sticky pitch across her abraded skin.

“Here it is.” Karen’s nose was wrinkled in distaste. “Foul smelling things, aren’t they?”

Winter looked up from her futile attempts to pick the needles free, her gaze drawn to the rift in the low retaining wall. The hole was innocuous, just looking like the cement had given away, revealing a hollow place behind it. Only there was no dirt behind the cement, simply blackness edged in licking orange flames visible only to Winter’s magical sight. The hole was small, little larger than Winter’s closed fist, a dainty fracture in the world. How in the universe the little goblins had squeezed through was beyond Winter’s understanding, but it could not have been a pleasant experience. Winter slung her large hobo bag around from behind her back and rummaged one-handed.

“Are you going to close it?”

Winter shook her hand. “I can’t close it... no wizard can, really. It takes too much power.” Winter pulled out a large, misshapen lump of green-flecked chalk. “But, we really don’t want anything to come through it, either, so I’m going to seal it.”

“Seal it?” Karen crouched down beside the wizard and reached a tentative finger toward the hole. Winter pushed her hand aside. “Isn’t that the same thing?”

“Not really... and stop that,” Winter repelled another attempt to touch the rift. Cats and curiosity... The flames would not burn the cougar, they were heatless, but still, there was no telling what might be ready to come out. “When I’m finished, the rift will still be here, but nothing will be able to pass through it, in either direction.”

Karen sat back on her heals. “Could the seal be broken?”

Winter opened her mouth to deny it, but then decided there was no need to lie. “Yes... but the amount of power required would be...” Winter spent a moment as she traced the first circle around the hole. “...probably enough to set off Sarah.”

Karen craned her neck to look up the mountain and gave off a low whistle of appreciation. Seahaven nestled comfortably in the shadow of what was often described as the ‘most inactive active volcano in North America.’ Originally called Tamarawas, Mount Sarah rumbled, she grumbled, and occasionally let out a lady-like belch, but she never was rude enough to blow her top. Geologists at the University of Washington, Seahaven said she had not done so in ten thousand years.

“Eventually, it might even close on its own.” Winter neatly completed the second circle, warming up to her subject. She loved teaching, and Karen seemed to be interested. “See, the rift and the hole aren’t actually connected. This wall could be knocked down, but the rift would remain. Now, the rift caused some of the erosion to the hole, but it isn’t dependent on it... it’s just that the Universe as a rule likes a bit of order, so rifts and gateways will form in conjunction with an existing structure or opening. There are some theories that...”

Karen jumped away so high and far that she landed on the far lip of the ravine. “What’s that?” Fear lent a tremble to her voice.

The world shifted sideways. Winter braced herself against the wall with her one good hand, the chalk grinding against the concrete as she fought the initial wave of disorientation. Something was horribly wrong. Within the rift, power was building up, as if someone had just crimped a running hose.

And she was holding the nozzle.

 

[Mad Swede]

My analogy probably could have been a little clearer. Apologies for sending you off in an unintended direction.

I brought that analogy up only to illustrate why I need to set things up beforehand, and can't put it off until after the events.

So, in this analogy, all the characters would be aware of the gun, and would be expecting it. It is the reader who will have been thrown for a loop.

I'll continue with your analogy.

The thing about a situation like that, both in real life and in a story, is how unremarkable the gun would be. No-one would think about it, or make any sort of comment about it. The gun would just be there. It's like us using cell phones. The character might casually check over the gun before putting it in a holster, or loading it, or whatever. It would just be something that is done in passing.

The challenge in this case arises because having a gun in what would otherwise be a medieval type setting is incongruous. As a reader I might accept it if the idea of guns was introduced in the right way, but as a reader I'd be asking myself a lot of questions about what other similar technology (eg gunpowder) might also be used by the characters. Which leads me back to the question of worldbuilding, setting and relevant descriptions, which we're discussing in this thread:

On relevance

For me, a situation like this needs a carefully thought out setting, where the worldbuilding is consistent and cohesive. The readers will know what a gun is and how it works, but what needs thought is how this technology can exist in the medieval type setting and what else this implies (laws, behaviour etc). Once I've thought all this through my next challenge is how to convey things to the readers so that the gun doesn't throw them for a loop when it appears. I'd aim to bring this in slowly, through what the characters see and hear. Maybe some glimpse of a gun in a pack, maybe the sound of a shot. Or finding a stray bullet on the ground. The key to making it work is to get this over in a way which conveys how unremarkable it is to the characters, and for me that will be largely about how they and others around them react to these things. It's also in this showing that I can get pacing right, so that I get a smooth run in to the big scene in chapter whatever without being unfair on the reader.

 

[Diana Silver]

I love this discussion. Am reading up on it with great interest.

I wonder if I could add a little bit of a follow-up quesiton, which is: when do you place information? Howmany sentences, pages or chapters before X plays a key role in a scene, do you introduce the reader to the fact that X's exist in your world? (X could be types of magic, creatures, particular spells or important lore...)

I find that in writing my first draft, the answer often is: one chapter. But that's because of the writing process: I make it up as I go along. Come the rewrite, I'll have to sit down and think about how best to introduce the elements. Sometimes, one chapter may indeed be the final answer. In many ways, I like: it's fresh in a reader's mind while still feeling new and exciting, and immediately it turns out that X wasn't just introduced to fill pages, no: it really makes the story turn another way.

Still, one chapter can't always be the right answer.

I wonder if you guys have any thoughts on that.