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How would a demon society work and how could demons look like?

Peregrine

Troubadour
If I had to imagine demons I am sure of three things:

- I would never have demons with horns and red skin.

- If I have demons that does not mean I have to include angels, my definition and perception of demons is not strictly the divine judeo-christian one, but a demon who is a supernatural and often malevolent being, not just red demons with horns, but also Japanese yokai, Indian rakshasa, Islamic djinn, they are all considered demons.
A demon does not have to have anything in common with hell, there are ice demons, demons of the sea, demons of the mountains, demons of the forest, cave demons and so on.

- Demons do not have to be pure evil, they are not always chaotic evil, take for instance in islam, jinn (demons/genies) can be neutral and evil and some are rumored even to be good.

I sometimes physically imagine demons like a hybrid of Eredar from warcraft universe and orcs from Lord of the Rings.

Some people and religions view demons as denizens of hell, that they are monsters or abominations.
My demons are not otherworldy and they are not found in other dimensions, like orcs in Middle-Earth, they coexist in the same world as humans in my world.

Islam views demons differently and I like this perception, their demons are probably the most "human" demons in all of religions and mythology, the jinn (genies/demons) can eat and drink, they can be indifferent, neutral or evil, they can marry and they can die of old age like humans.

If I make a demon society, they would be inspired by orc society from LotR, but not with a evil overlord like Sauron, but instead empires, petty states and kingdoms with ambitious power-hungry warlords.
Instead of feudalism the demon society could have "iqta" system.

In summary, the two major questions:

- I need ideas what could they look like?

- I would base a demon society on a mix of LotR orc society and the jinn society. How could a demon society work without making them purely evil, "dehumanized", and with a society that shuns the presence of women like Tolkien depicts orcs?
How do I escape the trap of making a "race" that is always chaotic evil?
 
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elemtilas

Inkling
If I had to imagine demons I am sure of three things:

- I would never have demons with horns and red skin.

I'm not sure where this notion ever came from.

The Enemy's only powers are those of whispers and suggestion. Wise seeming words coming from a fair and friendly countenance. I mean really: who would be duped by a scruffy little mongrel with red skin and horns?

- If I have demons that does not mean I have to include angels,

Sure. It all depends on what you mean by "demon". What is their function and origin?

my definition and perception of demons is not strictly the divine judeo-christian one, but a demon who is a supernatural and often malevolent being, not just red demons with horns, but also Japanese yokai, Indian rakshasa, Islamic djinn, they are all considered demons.

So, something more akin to certain classes of fairies. Fair enough. I think there's quite a lot of potential there!

A demon does not have to have anything in common with hell, there are ice demons, demons of the sea, demons of the mountains, demons of the forest, cave demons and so on.

- Demons do not have to be pure evil, they are not always chaotic evil, take for instance in islam, jinn (demons/genies) can be neutral and evil and some are rumored even to be good.

Good in a relative sense, I suppose. It seems like you're posing a much more mundane kind of being. A little more powerful, perhaps, than humans, but not the angelic beings we generally associate with the name. Sounds good!

I sometimes physically imagine demons like a hybrid of Eredar from warcraft universe and orcs from Lord of the Rings.

Some people and religions view demons as denizens of hell, that they are monsters or abominations.
My demons are not otherworldy and they are not found in other dimensions, like orcs in Middle-Earth, they coexist in the same world as humans in my world.

Well, I for one look forward to hearing what becomes of these folk!

- I need ideas what could they look like?

Well, you mention LotR style Orcs. Could start there. Or perhaps pale, cold folk, disdainful of other peoples; not ugly or misshapen, but perhaps startling in appearance. Like a corpse flower, beautiful yet repulsive.

- I would base a demon society on a mix of LotR orc society and the jinn society. How could a demon society work without making them purely evil, "dehumanized", and with a society that shuns the presence of women like Tolkien depicts orcs?
How do I escape the trap of making a "race" that is always chaotic evil?

Well, Tolkien did not posit Orcs as shunning the presence of females. I mean, those legions of Orcs have to come from somewhere, after all! I'm simply of the opinion that the Orcs we see are warriors. Just like the Fellowship are adventurers. While I'm sure Galadriel could kick the asses of the lot of em, well, women just weren't warriors and soldiers in his day. I think the whole Tauriel thing is largely an invention of the late 20th / early 21st century perspective.

So yeah, you'd obviously need female demons. It's up to you what their place in society ought to be.

As for your last question, you could just make them chaotic. Like humans. You could also posit a strongly orthogonal moral system. One that clashes with other folks' ideas on what's right and wrong. While they might then seem chaotic evil, they are actually not.
 
Hi,

I think I'd suggest going another route. The term "demons" is highly prescriptive. It makes you think instantly of evil and red skin and horns / tails, as you've already noted. So why use it? Why go to all the trouble to have a race of demons and then make them essentially anything but demons in most people's understanding? Why not use genies or djins? It gives you a lot more flexibility in making the race as you want it.

As to how to write them. Maybe you could use the concept of the overman - Nietzsche. The living embodiment of a race whose core goal is to become stronger - not wanting to start a philosophy debate here. But picture a race gifted with magic etc, who only respect strength. Maybe not evil per se, but amoral. Remember the strong live according to their own morals not those of the herd. And their society holds together not for the benefit of the herd but because in doing so it allows each of them to grow in strength, unrestrained by needless morality but protected by laws.

Cheers, Greg.
 

Peregrine

Troubadour
Yes the most popular mental image is that of red horned demons, but it means different things to different people. The demons in Hellraiser movie do not have horns nor they are red, many video games have their own imaginations of demons.
You are restricting your imagination, that is like thinking of a old granny with a broomstick when you hear the word witch.

I will not use genies, I can not draw anything from Islamic mythology nor any other mythology such as Greek. I can use dragons for example but not harpies. Why? Because many mythologies have their own version of dragons, therefore my dragons can refer to any dragon whether it is dragon from Greek, Norse or other mythology and I do not want to use a creature and then people say - you clearly "stole" this creature from this or that mythology.

My demons follow a Orange and Blue morality. And demon warlords rule by the motto "might makes right".
 
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Mythopoet

Auror
but also Japanese yokai, Indian rakshasa, Islamic djinn, they are all considered demons.

Well, keep in mind that "demon" is the word usually used to translate "yokai" but that the two words do not actually share meaning. English simply doesn't have a appropriate one word equivalent for yokai. In Japanese mythology, "yokai" are not anything like the Judeo-Christian idea of demons. Yokai are frightening because they are powerful and strange. There are thousands of types of yokai. An old pair of sandals can be possessed by a spirit and become a yokai. Or it can be a bird-like creature with wings that lives on mountains. Or it can look just like a human. Some types of yokai are solitary, others form communities or families. Some attempt to live among humans, other shun human society. There's really a bewildering variety and the only thing they really have in common is being strange or "other" and possessing some type of supernatural power.

Japanese Oni, a type of yokai, might be more similar to our conception of "demons". They are generally portrayed as more ugly and belligerent. And often have horns. (I like the ones that have one short horn on their forehead.)

I don't know how much you know about yokai, but digging into the folklore more might answer some of the questions you're asking yourself.

I guess my point is, Judeo-Christian "demons" are really something entirely different from what we call "demons" from other mythologies. Comparing them doesn't really work. You might just want to ditch the Judeo-Christian conception altogether and take more inspiration from other mythologies.
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
In summary, the two major questions:

- I need ideas what could they look like?

Anything you like. I think the red skinned with horns depiction is more one of the devil himself and not necessarily any particular demon. Many demons that appear in legends and stories and RPG's have fairly well defined appearances, and they are not of the red skinned horned variety. Generally, I would go with the concept that the demon could very likely choose its own form, and would likely choose something it found terrifying. So, a blob with eight tentacles, or a giant slug with vicious fangs, or a four armed mountain of a blue (not red) skinned man, would all work for me. Its really up to you to define.


- I would base a demon society on a mix of LotR orc society and the jinn society. How could a demon society work without making them purely evil, "dehumanized", and with a society that shuns the presence of women like Tolkien depicts orcs?
How do I escape the trap of making a "race" that is always chaotic evil?

I suppose I would ask the question, if you take a well established creature and then change it to the point that it is not very much like that creature, is it really one of those creatures? And then, why not call them something else? If you not going to use evil, or demonic appearance as your base, why are you calling them demons?

Anyway, in direct answer to your question, well, they can be anything you like. If you don't want them to be evil, than don't make them that way. As an exercise, suppose they were all evil, rejected God and fell from heaven and all of that, and then a bunch of millennia passes, and as a group they all kind of found that warring and tormenting each other got dull and boring, and that stupid angel society was thriving while they were all still living in squalor because they could not get over that they might have to be friendly with each other. So they gave up the outright terrorizing portion of their nature, opened some shops and started selling some wares. Now the have business relationships, and reputations to maintain, and in doing so, they kind of drift a bit a way from total evil, and are just marginally evil. Sure, they will take their rival and put him in cement shoes when called on, or steal a blind mans winning lottery ticket, but all that tearing peoples arms off, well, that is just not really helping. Maybe there are a few who don't want to civilize, and so there are still really bad life hating demons, but a good portion have joined the society. I don't know. Really I think the possibilities are endless. But its you who has to choose.
 
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Hi,

Yeah I understand what you want to do, but not why you have to. Your last line in your OP was how do you escape the trap of making a race that is chaotic evil? My question to you is why try to do it with a race that is stereotypically chaotically evil? Djinns and genies and ifrits and imps may come with their own religious / cultural baggage but it's not so strongly accepted in the west where I assume most of your readers are. That gives you much more freedom to work with them and make them as you want without your readers suddenly saying - "but he's a demon!" when your MC rescues the puppy.

Just to give an example, slightly off topic, about the importance of reader's expectations. I just pubbed my latest epic fantasy two and a bit weeks ago. Got a review back yesterday from a reader saying she read a few pages, but then the bad guy pulled out a pistol and that was the end. She could not accept a pistol in an epic fantasy even when it's verging on steampunk.

Cheers, Greg.
 
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elemtilas

Inkling
Just to give an example, slightly off topic, about the importance of reader's expectations. I just pubbed my latest epic fantasy two and a bit weeks ago. Got a review back yesterday from a reader saying she read a few pages, but then the bad guy pulled out a pistol and that was the end. She could not accept a pistol in an epic fantasy even when it's verging on steampunk.

Understandable --- people do have justified or unjustified expectations of what Fantasy involves. Generally speaking, fire arms aren't on the list.

But I wonder, and you might consider asking your reviewer: how would she have reacted to Tolkien (pretty much the undisputed inventor of modern Fantasy as a genre) if she'd read Farmer Giles first.

In rereading the OP, I am leaning much further away from the people being posited even being demons of any kind, and probably not fairies of any kind either. They don't remind me of Jinn or Peri or Fairies or Demons. Perhaps it was their being described as more Orcish in nature.

At any rate, I'd amend what I said earlier to "sure, borrow features from Jinn-folk and classic chaotic Demon-folk and from Orcs: but give them their own sense of being within their world and your own twist on the source materials".


Oh, and don't call them "demons"! I think this might confuse matters more than help.
 
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