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Is this fantasy race design offensive?

Jabrosky

Banned
I've started a sci-fi story set in a parallel world where humans and dinosaurs coexist. This world's native human populations are reproductively compatible with Earth humans but they have jet-black skin and yellow eyes. They look like this:

otherworldly_woman_by_jabrosky-d4tpoma.png


I meant this particular character to be beautiful and sympathetic, but I've had people on other writing forums complain that her design is offensive and stereotypical. Honestly I don't see the problem; while her appearance is definitely tribal-influenced, her race isn't meant to represent any real Earth ethnicity and I do intend to portray them as realistically as possible. Why are people finding it offensive?
 

Queshire

Auror
Uh.... it's because whether you intend it or not, we can't help but see a generic primiative, tribal black woman. Readers are stupid. They'll see things you never intended. Your story could be as anti-racists as it comes, but somebody is going to glean something from the whole yellow-eye black skin description. My suggestion is to give them a skin color that doesn't appear in nature, make them seem less tribal like, or just not mention skin color at all. Is skin color an important element of your story? If not, then you'd be saving yourself a whole lot of trouble just skipping over it.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Jabrosky, no matter what you do you are bound to offend someone, somewhere. I would brush it off and just write the story and race as you intended it.
 

Jabrosky

Banned
Is skin color an important element of your story?
The planned antagonists in my story are Nazis who want to brutally conquer the natives, so yes, it is important that the natives look very different from the Nordic ideal. Furthermore, I actually do have a rationale for the natives' black complexions: their world receives much more ultraviolet radiation than ours does and therefore they need a lot of melanin.

The natives won't all be tribal though. Some of them have civilizations on technological par with precolonial African kingdoms like ancient Egypt and Nubia.
 

Leif GS Notae

Closed Account
Well, I suppose the rule of thumb is if you change the skin color to something unearthly and apply it to the story, would it change anything? If they were blue or green skinned, does it change or alter the story any? Probably not.

This is a new world where gut instinct and reaction overrule anything else. If you are prepared to defend the story from people who react in a heartbeat, then more power to you.

If you want to stem the tide a little, I would say mix it up and have all skin colors involved. If you are angling on Nazis dominating tribespeople, they exterminated light skin people as well for being non-Aryan (not the only reason, but it didn't help). If you show diversity in your oppression, it should lessen the blow from instant reactions.

Hope that helps. Good luck.
 

JCFarnham

Auror
Yesh, its be said before but some people are ridiculously easy to offend, or ... actually enjoy being offended by something so they can argue for the sake of it. Fact is I can tell you can defend your reasons for their appearence. Just be confident and people should respect that.

The worst thing you could do is stereotype this race into the black-and-tribal box and have little reason for it. You on the other hand have a reason for it to be so in the story. And anyway, I'm sorry but the world is a diverse place, people worry too much. As if even mentioning people who have a different skin colour is a henous crime. PC has it's uses, but people are what they are, you know. You aren't meaning to portray them as horrible people so there shouldn't be a problem.

Some sod would probably pick on the worst example of your race just to be controversial, but you know its a load of rubbish don't you. There are good people and bad people in all creeds of homo sapiens.
 

Amanita

Maester
The natives won't all be tribal though. Some of them have civilizations on technological par with precolonial African kingdoms like ancient Egypt and Nubia.
Honestly, I don't see what's supposed to be wrong with something like that. Especially if your dark-skinned natives are the good guys and not a barbaric, cruel, primitive group of people that needs enlightenment from superior groups to stop sacrificing virgins or anything like that.
But I'm white myself, therefore I might not be the right person to ask. In another forum, I did see to what length American groups representing various minorities go with being offended at almost anything so I can see where you're coming from. (I'm wondering if should avoid mentioning my main character's skin colour as well.)

If you are angling on Nazis dominating tribespeople, they exterminated light skin people as well for being non-Aryan
As well? Almost only if I'm allowed to claim that. Most victims of the Nazis where Jews and Eastern Europeans. I haven't met any Jews but with Polish and Russian people there's no visible difference to Germans at all. Racism doesn't always have to do with skin colour, many of the worst crimes against humanity have happend among people who don't look so obviously different at all. Japanese war crimes against Koreans and Chinese, the crimes in the former Yugoslawian countries, the genocide in Rwanda...
Dark-skinned invaders subjugating dark-skinned natives would be offensive to some people too though, I assume.

If your characters are human and live in a place with high UV-radiation, a dark skin tone is the logical consequence. If they're not human, they can have any other protecting skin pigment of course... The red and blue colours in some vegetables have such properties as well, I believe.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
Yesh, its be said before but some people are ridiculously easy to offend, or ... actually enjoy being offended by something so they can argue for the sake of it. Fact is I can tell you can defend your reasons for their appearence. Just be confident and people should respect that.

I think the weirdest part with PC allegations is that, while people often call something offensive, the number of people who actually say I'm offended is usually very small, even when they're asked directly. People don't like to be offended, but they do like to be outraged.

However, Jabrosky, you're in the business of reader impact, and you need to be in control of what impact your readers are having to your work. Something like this might risk taking away that control and getting in the way of your ability to deliver the real impact of your story. Just be aware.
 
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Leif GS Notae

Closed Account
As well? Almost only if I'm allowed to claim that. Most victims of the Nazis where Jews and Eastern Europeans. I haven't met any Jews but with Polish and Russian people there's no visible difference to Germans at all. Racism doesn't always have to do with skin colour, many of the worst crimes against humanity have happend among people who don't look so obviously different at all. Japanese war crimes against Koreans and Chinese, the crimes in the former Yugoslawian countries, the genocide in Rwanda...
Dark-skinned invaders subjugating dark-skinned natives would be offensive to some people too though, I assume.

That was my point. They were not Germans, they were not "pure" so they had to be eliminated. However, their skin color was the same, so it wasn't based off JUST skin tone.

This is a topic we will take offline since it hijacks the thread.

As far as being overly PC, it is what it is. If you want to operate in this day and age, you must expect over sensitivity for something like this. Logic does not overrule gut reaction. If you make a bad impression, you are going to be saddled with it thanks to this modern age of instant communication and social networks. This isn't something logic can override. If you want to continue with the story, just be prepared to fight for it.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
That was my point. They were not Germans, they were not "pure" so they had to be eliminated. However, their skin color was the same, so it wasn't based off JUST skin tone.

I think what Amanita was saying is that, while the Nazis were racist to the extreme, the actual genocides they committed during the war weren't based at all on skin tone. The atrocities were based solely on heritage, culture and behavior.

I mean, for all of their talk about the great Aryan race and their plans for eugenics, the Japanese were still able to become honorary Aryans, after all.
 
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Ghost

Inkling
I meant this particular character to be beautiful and sympathetic, but I've had people on other writing forums complain that her design is offensive and stereotypical. [...] Why are people finding it offensive?

I don't know. Since my view on your world is influenced by what I read before I saw the pictures. I remember being put off by the pictures at first, but I got over it because I knew your intentions. I know you're trying to show black people, and black women specifically, in a positive light because you care. It's very different from pandering or being PC for the sake of it, and I think it's commendable as long as your Nazi dudes aren't throwaway "racist guy," and they're well thought out.

I'm trying to think of what bothered me when I first saw the pictures. It may be the style. I don't mean to offend your sensibilites, but perhaps a more realistic style of drawing instead of a cartoonish one would read differently. It might be part of why people don't take it seriously. There's also the loincloth, headband, bones, and facepaint combo. It can go a little "generic tribal person" which isn't even about the skin color. With a medium skin tone and I'd think "Amazon native" or something similar. (But she appears to be wearing camo. :happy:) My suggestion is to look more widely at the types of clothes people in similar climates wear and take into account your people need their clothes to be suitable for their purposes and that they may have other resources to make something new. I'm not sure how thick dino skin is, but there might be other animals they use.

I'd actually be more offended if your tribesmen had a funny skin color. I'd wonder why the Nazi guys got to be white but the black folks had to be psychedelic. I suppose the Nazis could be orange, but changing the skin of either group so it's not a normal human skin color would feel like a poorly constructed cover that doesn't hide your intentions. There are times when I suggest people distance themselves from real world counterparts, but I don't think it would work in this case unless your novel has an allegorical tone.

I need to stop rambling. Keep fighting the good fight, Jabrosky.
 

Jabrosky

Banned
I don't know. Since my view on your world is influenced by what I read before I saw the pictures. I remember being put off by the pictures at first, but I got over it because I knew your intentions. I know you're trying to show black people, and black women specifically, in a positive light because you care. It's very different from pandering or being PC for the sake of it, and I think it's commendable as long as your Nazi dudes aren't throwaway "racist guy," and they're well thought out.

Having talked about this some more elsewhere on the Internet, I realized that there's something wrong with my plot: while the bad guys are Nazis, the protagonists are Americans of various colors (the native woman in my OP drawing is a love interest for one of the Americans). That could be interpreted as sending the patronizing message that people of color need white or otherwise non-native saviors. Of course that isn't my intention, but since I actually hate "white savior" stories I don't want my story to come across as one.

I'm trying to think of what bothered me when I first saw the pictures. It may be the style. I don't mean to offend your sensibilites, but perhaps a more realistic style of drawing instead of a cartoonish one would read differently.
Unfortunately that happens to be my most realistic style. I need to take art classes badly.
 

Amanita

Maester
Having talked about this some more elsewhere on the Internet, I realized that there's something wrong with my plot:
I really don't want to be offensive towards you now, but only reading what you've written here, you might be right. If you haven't done so already, you might want to research what Nazies where actually doing (first and foremost "purifying" their own country's population and gaining more land for them relatively close by and in roughly similar climatic regions) and what kind of reasons led people to actually fight for new territories in far away lands with completely different conditions. What were their reasons to treat the natives the way they did? Economic reasons? Religious reasons? Something entirely different? The problems this brings to conquerors as well as the conquered groups are interesting as well. How would the "nordic" people deal with the weather and radiation on your planet?
Maybe you've done all this already and I'm reading your posts wrong, but if your plot actually amounts to "evil group of pale-skinned people attacks innocent group of dark-skinned people because they're evil and racist and good Americans safe innocent native people unable to defend themselves" a few reconsiderations might make it better and less offensive. ;)
 
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Jabrosky

Banned
I've decided to give my story a complete makeover:

The native girl illustrated in the OP is the protagonist. She belongs to a guild of dinosaur huntresses similar to the Amazons of Dahomey in Earth's history. She does have a visiting Earth anthropologist for a love interest, but beyond that the Earthlings play a relatively minor role; the story centers on the natives and their world. Hopefully that will help me avert most of the tropes associated with colonist/native stories.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I've decided to give my story a complete makeover:

The native girl illustrated in the OP is the protagonist. She belongs to a guild of dinosaur huntresses similar to the Amazons of Dahomey in Earth's history. She does have a visiting Earth anthropologist for a love interest, but beyond that the Earthlings play a relatively minor role; the story centers on the natives and their world. Hopefully that will help me avert most of the tropes associated with colonist/native stories.

Another way to avoid the offensives trope would be bringing some portion of the conflict to the civilized society so that both groups need saving. For instance, if instead of Germany it was occupied France being forced to support the war.
 

Saigonnus

Auror
They kind of resemble Amazons with darker skin... Think of it on a geologic scale. Dark skin is accurate if they live near the equator of the planet where the sun is stronger or if the ozone layer and atmosphere is thinner, and depending on time frame the story is set in, their clothing would probably be different. That seems typical of fantasy, where woman are portrayed with wearing next to nothing. Chain mail bikinis wouldn't protect anything, and they'd be unrealistic in any fantasy setting. That outfit is the same kind of thing. Wrap-around skirts/sari's would be more probable in a "native" society depending on a woman's role in the societal structure. If she is a hunter for example, that "skirt" she wearing could hinder her movements.l

Even if you don't ever write it into the story, fill out as much about the race as you can. These include what they look like, clothing, rituals, daily life, spiritual beliefs, combat abilities and typical weapons and maybe even what kind of shelters they live in and what they use for different things. This could flesh out your "race" and given them a sense of depth.
 

Jabrosky

Banned
If she is a hunter for example, that "skirt" she wearing could hinder her movements.
What kind of clothing would suit a huntress living in a very hot climate? Should she go nude?

Actually, I wouldn't mind drawing a nude huntress, come to think of it...
 

Queshire

Auror
I only skimmed over the posts since mine, anyways, I suggest just using vaguer terms like pale or fairer, thus letting the reader decide for themselves whether it refers to black/caucasians or caucasians/albinos. Also, Nazi's are a bit... over used. I mean, if you're going for that old pulp action feel then it's fine, but I suggest changing it up a bit.
 

gowph3ar

Troubadour
Seems like a typical tribal person, anyone offended by this is just being rude and has never spent any time watching the discovery channel. This is how people were/ how some are now, get over it people.
 
I've started a sci-fi story set in a parallel world where humans and dinosaurs coexist. This world's native human populations are reproductively compatible with Earth humans but they have jet-black skin and yellow eyes. They look like this:

otherworldly_woman_by_jabrosky-d4tpoma.png


I meant this particular character to be beautiful and sympathetic... Why are people finding it offensive?

Umm, I'm not black and I can see how that could be offencive to someone who is.
The problem runs deeper than many may realize. Partly because we are so good at forgetting how badly we have treated specific groups of humans.

Take this old "joke" for instance. "Black as night and dumb as a door knob..." It's not funny... not even a little bit.
The African people have been called everything from Monkey Fuc%ers to Ni&&ers.
Nigr is the Latin word for Black. Some people are extreamly sensitive to these facts, either due to a PC point of view or because they have some connection to the slave days.

Ask yourself this, do you enjoy being called a "cracker"? I'm assuming you are "white".
Now assume you are Hispanic would you like to be called a "wetback"? or have someone depict a Hispanc as a taco eating, potbellied, naptaking, lazy fart?

Some of the reasons you are getting so much flack is

A) the skin color which really you don't need to change some people have more pigmentation than others that is a fact of life.

I think your issue is more about
B) The clothing

and

C) The "tribal" paint.
It screams African Tribal person and not in a good way.

The yellow eyes remind me of jaundice as well... that has nothing to do with your question I just thought I'd point it out.


I would keep the skin and lose the clothing and face paint. To me that is where I see the "Offence."

In the end it is going to be your call, perhaps you should just not show a picture? Let them build the image in their own mind. Thus avoiding any conflict. But then you would have to watch your descriptions so you are not painting the same picture mentaly.
Hope it helps.
 
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