Issues with characterization

[Ireth]

This may get to be a long post, so please bear with me. I'm having a bit of trouble with the characterization of one of the protagonists in my novel Summer's Blood, and how that affects the other characters' interaction with him.

The main character in question, Vincent, hates the Fae because of multiple negative encounters with them, mainly involving attempts to kidnap his daughter, or to hurt him and his brother. Vincent sees most if not all Fae as "cradle-robbing, self-centered, hedonistic eldritch abominations," among other colorful insults. For the most part, he's correct. The Fae as a whole are largely selfish pleasure-seekers, and many of them are not adverse to stealing human children or taking human lovers or spouses. The Seelie Court are generally nicer to mortals than the Unseelie (unless provoked into treating them otherwise), but very few would fall under the human category of "good". At best they're more like Lawful Neutral. There is one Fae I'd call an exception to the rule, and he is another prominent character in the novel whom Vincent has to learn to get along with. The two have a bit of a history of antagonism, but despite his flaws the Fae is a pretty decent person.

My main issue here is with handling Vincent's hatred of the Fae and how that affects his interactions with the aforesaid "exception to the rule". I anticipate some of you might suggest presenting a moral such as "the Fae can be both good and bad, just like humans," but... no, they're not much like humans at all. Their ideas of "good" and "bad" are far removed from anything a human would identify with. The division between Seelie and Unseelie is not nearly as simple as "nice" vs. "nasty"; many Fae can and do switch back and forth between Courts at their leisure without altering their characters one bit. I hesitate somewhat to use the word bigot with regards to Vincent, as that to me has connotations of hypocrisy and unjust intolerance, and his hatred is pretty justifiable in my opinion given what the Fae have done and tried to do to him and his family. I do want him and the one Fae he's traveling with to eventually become friends, but I severely doubt that will affect his view of their whole kind. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Perhaps soming significant could happen on their travel where the Fae saves Vincent's life. He could tollerate him becauee he would be debted to him for his life- still leaving plenty of room to still hate his kind and to slowly grow more comfortable with the Fae.

 

[Leif GS Notae]

I think you have your answer in your question: Have this specific Fae not "steal a baby". This is the key issue here, it resonates with your protagonist, and it is easy to exploit for you as a writer.

Sure, it might take some time after the event for him to loosen up. If you do it right, you can have a good connection, and allow him to understand the lesson. Sure, that fae might do something ELSE untoward, but at least he can see them without painting the broad brush statement all over them.

 

[Ireth]

@Everlasting: I could definitely make that happen. Faerie isn't all sunshine and unicorns, after all, even in the summer. Lots of dangers there that they can get into.

@Leif: I'm afraid doing that would cut out a massive part of both of their characterization. The only reason Vincent believes in Faerie and the Fae at all is because this certain Fae once tried to kidnap his daughter when she was a newborn, and Vincent fought him off to save her -- that's what I meant by the two having a "history of antagonism". Then about seventeen years later, in the prequel to this story, Vincent's daughter met this Fae without knowing who he was and befriended him, leading him to save her life later in the story. Vincent acknowledges this debt, but he still hates the Fae for that first kidnapping attempt.

 

[Phin Scardaw]

It's important to remember that your human characters will be as complex emotionally as any person you meet in the real world, and their relationships will be equally complex. just think of the phenomenon where kidnap victims bond with their kidnappers, which is supposedly a natural human reaction to that kind of trauma. I could say that I hated some of the kids that called me names when I was a boy - but in truth I wanted them to be my friends. My feelings were mixed, as are most people's about most things. Literary characters run the risk of being far too black and white in general, especially in fantasy stories where some races are considered "good" while others are "evil".

If I were you, I would try to play around with the fact that the fairy is probably extremely charming. That's what their main power is derived from, is it not - fairy glamour, charms, wit, and beauty. I would be interested in reading about Vincent if he were drawn to the Fae despite himself. He might experience powerful, irresistible urges to get closer to this fairy, even though he despises him. Maybe whenever the fairy is around, Vincent is becharmed, but every time he's alone, he reminds himself of why he hates this creature. That is beautifully rife ground for a lot of internal conflict in your main character. He would want to hate the Fae - but just as equally, he would at times want to love It as well.

 

[Ireth]

That's an interesting idea, Phin. I'm not sure how well it would work for the bulk of the story, though, as Vincent and the Fae are forced to travel together and are thus never further than a few yards from each other. Your talk of Vincent wanting to "love" the Fae comes off as rather homoerotic, which I'm sure was not your intent. (For the record, both Vincent and the Fae are straight.) I might have a brotherly bond form between them, but I would prefer it to be the result of genuine emotion brought on by circumstance rather than Glamour and charms. Besides, I'm not sure how charming the Fae is feeling throughout the story; he's none too happy to be in this mess either. I could send you some chapters to give you an idea of exactly what they're dealing with, if you wish.

 

[Jon_Chong]

Allow me clarify one thing. The issue at heart here is how to portray Vincent's response to this particular Fae? Like he hates the ever living shit out of all things Fae and then suddenly this Fae shows up, saves his daughter - which coincidentally is the one that tried to kidnap her in the first place - and now he's a little confused with how to react to this Fae?

 

[Ireth]

Yup, that's it. I suppose I could have used far less words than I did in my original post. ^^; Oh well. As long as you understood my meaning, then I guess it's okay.

 

[Phin Scardaw]

You're always welcome to send me your writing, but I think I'd also like to have the issue at hand clarified somewhat. Is it that you don't know how to make Vincent hate the Fae but keep it believable that they would be travel companions?

And while fairies can be extremely erotic, and surely all of them swing both ways, that's not what I was implying. I was thinking about Lucifer, the King of Lies. A sort of demonic antagonist whose beauty is overpowering and irresistible. Or Saruman when he's confronted by Gandalf and Theoden - merely his voice alone enchants the men who've come to overthrow him, and he is seen as a lovely man full of reason, while Gandalf is protrayed as crude and harsh. (sadly, this subtlety was completely lost in the film)

i guess i just want to encourage you to explore what the relationship between a man and a fae would be like. because it must differ from normal human relationships, and this might be extremely confusing for Vincent. If the fae's values are inherently different from human values, what are they, and how do they determine his behaviour? and as for Vincent's feelings - if he were paired with a gorgeous, intelligent, and powerful immortal, wouldn't he experience some envy and desire to be held in some esteem by such a creature? i know i would...

 

[Leif GS Notae]

I still think the act of not taking a child isn't going to devalue or underpower your impact, but it will open more dialogue. Even if this fae is the one that kidnapped his daughter, he could still not to it to others to show it wasn't malicious. Then when you have his daughter expressing her feelings for this very same fae, the raw emotions will still be there, but there will be anxious conflict because of a bond he built with said fae, and the acts he committed this time around, are now a double edged blade.

Granted, I am a dark fellow and I love the forlorn darkness of a soul losing everything. I'm probably not the best person to ask about reclamation.

 

[Jon_Chong]

Well, you've answered your question already. Vincent acknowledges that this fae has saved his daughter but he reserves his judgment - especially so should he know that the Fae was the one who tried to kidnap his daughter in the first place. This could be turn out into an interesting party dynamic as the daughter tries to get the two to get a long and the Fae is doing his best to conform to human morality - this can be sincere or not, depending on your tastes and plot - while Vincent views everything with mistrust at best and outright hostility should something go wrong.

The key is the daughter. Vincent loves his daughter - presumably - and this Fae saved the daughter - I assume there is a reason behind this - and so it will be the daughter that binds these two together. She is the moderating factor in the relationship and the connection between the two. Without the daughter, you will need an extremely compelling reason to keep these two together or risk the reader having to suspend a huge amount of disbelief. Hope this helps.

 

[Ireth]

You're always welcome to send me your writing, but I think I'd also like to have the issue at hand clarified somewhat. Is it that you don't know how to make Vincent hate the Fae but keep it believable that they would be travel companions?

Yeah, pretty much. The mere fact that they're companions is not exactly the issue, it's what they think about being companions, as they're both in the situation against their will, with less desirable things awaiting them if they dare to defy the situation. To be a little more specific, Vincent, his daughter, and his brother have been commanded by the kings of both Courts to search through Faerie for a fugitive and bring her to justice, with the Fae acting as their guide. If the humans refuse, they'll be imprisoned in Faerie for anywhere from ten to thirty years and then released back to the human world, presumably on the Kings' terms. That means they could end up back on Earth at literally any point in time that the Kings choose, not necessarily their own, because the Fae can be very cruel like that.

And while fairies can be extremely erotic, and surely all of them swing both ways, that's not what I was implying. I was thinking about Lucifer, the King of Lies. A sort of demonic antagonist whose beauty is overpowering and irresistible. Or Saruman when he's confronted by Gandalf and Theoden - merely his voice alone enchants the men who've come to overthrow him, and he is seen as a lovely man full of reason, while Gandalf is protrayed as crude and harsh. (sadly, this subtlety was completely lost in the film)

That's a good point. Though personally, regarding Saruman in the LOTR movies, I wouldn't say the effect is completely lost. Christopher Lee does have a very compelling voice in my opinion, and he pulled it off very well.

i guess i just want to encourage you to explore what the relationship between a man and a fae would be like. because it must differ from normal human relationships, and this might be extremely confusing for Vincent. If the fae's values are inherently different from human values, what are they, and how do they determine his behaviour? and as for Vincent's feelings - if he were paired with a gorgeous, intelligent, and powerful immortal, wouldn't he experience some envy and desire to be held in some esteem by such a creature? i know i would...

As I said, the Fae are largely very selfish and hedonistic: they basically do whatever they want, and to heck with anyone who gets in their way. The Fae's kidnapping of Vincent's daughter was a selfish act: the Fae was unable to have a child of his own, so he decided to steal a human's child, as is standard practice for their kind. He didn't get away unscathed, and Vincent's daughter made sure to give him a hefty chewing-out when she found out what he'd tried to do all those years ago, since she never would have guessed he'd be the type to do so when she befriended him as a teenager prior to him saving her life.

Frankly, I don't think Vincent wants to have anything to do with the Fae at all. At best he might feel contempt for them and their arrogant superiority, but envy would be surprising and unlikely.

I still think the act of not taking a child isn't going to devalue or underpower your impact, but it will open more dialogue. Even if this fae is the one that kidnapped his daughter, he could still not to it to others to show it wasn't malicious. Then when you have his daughter expressing her feelings for this very same fae, the raw emotions will still be there, but there will be anxious conflict because of a bond he built with said fae, and the acts he committed this time around, are now a double edged blade.

Granted, I am a dark fellow and I love the forlorn darkness of a soul losing everything. I'm probably not the best person to ask about reclamation.

You're quite right about the raw emotions everyone would be feeling; those have been and will be fun to play with. Though I'm not sure what sort of emotional bond Vincent has to this Fae, unless it be a negative one: the moment in which the Fae saves Vincent's daughter was the first time the two laid eyes on each other since the cradle-robbing incident, and even then Vincent didn't immediately recognize him. They spent maybe fifteen minutes face-to-face and barely interacting before parting ways again, until the Fae showed up several months later begging for Vincent's help, and Vincent's daughter convinced her father to comply by using the fact that the Fae once saved her life as leverage. That indirectly led into the lot of them being forced together as travel companions in Faerie.

 

[Ireth]

Well, you've answered your question already. Vincent acknowledges that this fae has saved his daughter but he reserves his judgment - especially so should he know that the Fae was the one who tried to kidnap his daughter in the first place. This could be turn out into an interesting party dynamic as the daughter tries to get the two to get a long and the Fae is doing his best to conform to human morality - this can be sincere or not, depending on your tastes and plot - while Vincent views everything with mistrust at best and outright hostility should something go wrong.

The key is the daughter. Vincent loves his daughter - presumably - and this Fae saved the daughter - I assume there is a reason behind this - and so it will be the daughter that binds these two together. She is the moderating factor in the relationship and the connection between the two. Without the daughter, you will need an extremely compelling reason to keep these two together or risk the reader having to suspend a huge amount of disbelief. Hope this helps.

Vincent does know that this Fae is the one who tried to kidnap his daughter, and he does try to show him some civility for her sake, but it doesn't always work out. But the daughter is beginning to have doubts about the Fae's motives herself, since she found out who he is and what he tried to do all those years ago. That'll be a large part of her internal conflict, trying to decide whether he's a friend or an enemy.

 

[Penpilot]

The Fae saved Vincent's daughter, why? Was it just because they're friends, or does this Fae consider her to be in some ways his daughter too? To me this is key. If the Fae gets along with the daughter and even loves her like a father, it's a way to soften Vincent's hate. The love for the daughter can be common ground for the two of them to build a friendship on. If the daughter gets into jeopardy and the Fae helps her, it's a reason for Vincent not to hate him. Add up enough reasons relating to the daughter --but obviously not making her a constant damsel in distress -- and eventually the scales will shift. The reasons can be small like giving her a jacket when she's cold.

Another thing is maybe part of Vincent's hate can be based on the jealousy of the relationship his daughter and the Fae have. The Fae tried to take her away from him, but the Fae, who did wrong, still gets affection that Vincent thinks is rightfully his and thinks in a way, the Fae is still trying to take her away from him, by stealing all of her fatherly affections. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. You can play with that idea. Maybe when Vincent sees his daughter and the Fae interact, he wonders and fears that she might have been better off with the Fae as her father.

You can redeem the Fae in Vincent's eyes by erasing Vincent's fears I mentioned above. He can have a talk with Vincen't late in the story that says something to the effect that he was glad Vincent stopped him from taking the daughter. Although he would dearly loved to have raised her, he loves the person she has become and that wouldn't have happened under his guidance. He knows his peoples selfish flaws and most of all his own, and under his influence, she would have inherited those selfish flaws too, and that's something no father wants. They want children that are better than them.

 

[Ankari]

Why do you want them to be friends? I can understand that they may tolerate each other, especially after the Fae saved the daughter. I can't think of any person who would befriend anyone for trying to kidnap their child, no matter what they did later to earn your trust later. They may begrudgingly work together, with the protagonist always on edge or always seeking a way to inflict harm against the Fae. How would you ask anyone in real life to forgive an attempted kidnapping of their child?

As a secondary question, what do the Fae do with the stolen children? That may shed a little light on how characters in your world would react to such attempts. Do they kidnap them raise them as their own children, or do they kidnap them then return them after a year with the blessed mark of the Fae on the child's forehead that grants them special powers?

 

[Ireth]

The Fae saved Vincent's daughter, why? Was it just because they're friends, or does this Fae consider her to be in some ways his daughter too? To me this is key. If the Fae gets along with the daughter and even loves her like a father, it's a way to soften Vincent's hate. The love for the daughter can be common ground for the two of them to build a friendship on. If the daughter gets into jeopardy and the Fae helps her, it's a reason for Vincent not to hate him. Add up enough reasons relating to the daughter --but obviously not making her a constant damsel in distress -- and eventually the scales will shift. The reasons can be small like giving her a jacket when she's cold.

The Fae's (henceforth Loegaire, his real name) reasons for saving her are somewhat complicated, and tied in heavily with the plot of the prequel, which I'll state here in brief. The daughter, Ariel, was kidnapped to be the bride of another Fae, a prince who was unrelated to Loegaire. Ariel hated her husband-to-be and tried her darndest to escape him, which landed her in trouble. Loegaire counseled her to accept the prince's hand in marriage for her own safety, but she refused and tried to escape again. When the trouble only increased after that, Loegaire finally did what he could to get her out of it and let her go back to her family.

Loegaire initially wanted Ariel to be his daughter, but I think currently he loves her slightly more as a friend. When they met and became friends, he didn't recognize her as the girl he'd once tried to kidnap and raise as his own. He mentions when he first meets her in the prequel that she bears a resemblance to a woman he saw long ago -- that being Vincent's deceased wife, whom he saw the night he tried to take Ariel -- but he doesn't make the connection until the climax of the story, and he isn't given much time to react to it, being at that point a minor character compared to the rest. He only gets promoted to protagonist status in the current story.

Another thing is maybe part of Vincent's hate can be based on the jealousy of the relationship his daughter and the Fae have. The Fae tried to take her away from him, but the Fae, who did wrong, still gets affection that Vincent thinks is rightfully his and thinks in a way, the Fae is still trying to take her away from him, by stealing all of her fatherly affections. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. You can play with that idea. Maybe when Vincent sees his daughter and the Fae interact, he wonders and fears that she might have been better off with the Fae as her father.

Having Vincent be jealous of Loegaire seems slightly more likely than the softening-hate idea you mentioned first. Though as I mentioned above, Ariel is currently in very mixed feelings about Loegaire and her relationship with him, so she might not show him as much affection as he would her real father, which would give Vincent less cause to be jealous. We'll have to see how it plays out.

You can redeem the Fae in Vincent's eyes by erasing Vincent's fears I mentioned above. He can have a talk with Vincen't late in the story that says something to the effect that he was glad Vincent stopped him from taking the daughter. Although he would dearly loved to have raised her, he loves the person she has become and that wouldn't have happened under his guidance. He knows his peoples selfish flaws and most of all his own, and under his influence, she would have inherited those selfish flaws too, and that's something no father wants. They want children that are better than them.

That's a very good idea. I'll definitely make sure something like that happens. Though given that Loegaire is, well, a Fae and not a human, he may not see his people's flaws as flaws in the same way that the humans in the story would. For example, Vincent and the other humans think that kidnapping babies is wrong; to the Fae, especially the Daoine Sidhe, it's just another method of perpetuating their kind, since after a long time in Faerie the stolen humans would themselves become very akin to Fae. Though after getting thoroughly reamed out by Ariel, I think Loegaire'd have second thoughts before stealing a child who has family willing to fight and die to protect them, as Ariel does.

Why do you want them to be friends? I can understand that they may tolerate each other, especially after the Fae saved the daughter. I can't think of any person who would befriend anyone for trying to kidnap their child, no matter what they did later to earn your trust later. They may begrudgingly work together, with the protagonist always on edge or always seeking a way to inflict harm against the Fae. How would you ask anyone in real life to forgive an attempted kidnapping of their child?

Forgiveness is a wonderful thing. Some victims of rape or sexual assault have learned to forgive their attackers, so why is a kidnapping attempt any less forgivable? I was aiming to stress the power of forgiveness in light of the situation between Vincent and Loegaire; that and good deeds cancelling out bad ones. If Loegaire consistently shows himself to be a decent person despite his flaws, and maybe even saves Vincent's life at some point, it might help Vincent to warm up to him. They might not be best buddies by the end of the story, but at least they could call each other a friend.

As a secondary question, what do the Fae do with the stolen children? That may shed a little light on how characters in your world would react to such attempts. Do they kidnap them raise them as their own children, or do they kidnap them then return them after a year with the blessed mark of the Fae on the child's forehead that grants them special powers?

The Fae typically kidnap human children to raise as their own, because the Fae often have trouble procreating with their own kind; their own children often turn out sickly, and these they tend to leave in place of the human children -- this is the story behind changelings. I've never heard of any stolen child being returned willingly; it doesn't seem like something they'd do, even a Seelie.