Overly influenced by RPGs

[ecdavis]

I think I've lost my mind. I'm working on the third book of my series, and like many fantasy writers, my characters and settings are heavily influenced by popular Role Playing Games. Though I've read a multitude of fantasy novels, for some reason the largest influence continues to be the settings of RPGs, in particular AD&D type of settings.

When I first began work on my first book, I really didn't notice it as much, except in how I selected some of the main characters' adversaries. I had to force myself to create my own 'monsters' and not have them conform to the d20 system. The second book I wrote I had a lot of trouble during the battle sequences, as I could not stop but plotting it out like an AD&D fight sequence.

Now about 1/3rd the way through the last book, I just realized that I'm a slave to that specific RPG in my writing. Nearly everything in my books could easily be put into an old school, first edition AD&D campaign. The characters, the magic, most of the monsters and villains; everything. I don't think it is too bad, except for the fight sequences, then it really shows.

Now, the thing is; I really didn't want to overdo it like this. I've read several of the 'official' Wizards of the Coast fantasy novels such as the Drizzt series and some of the Dragonlance series, and they of course are tie-ins to the RPG, but for the most part don't feel like it.

I was wondering if anyone else out there had this same crazy problem? I've even charted out the stats for my characters and ran several battle sequences using the old AD&D books. In a way it was somewhat interesting because it created a few twists in the plot that I wasn't planning that actually made the book quite a bit more interesting as after this I had the characters react to these surprises. But I find that I often have to put the RPG books down and just write as I imagine it happening.

My original idea was to write about a world and characters that would certainly fit into a RPG setting, but I never dreamed I'd find myself getting so tied into the game. My characters, I think, are fairly well crafted and individuals, not stereotypes of the usual races and classes, but the main problem is with the battles. I wrote a short story in the same setting that is mostly battle sequences, but amazingly, in this story, I didn't think of it like a RPG type of battle and it seemed to flow much more smoothly.

I know this is ridiculous and though I have no plans for ever submitting them to any publishing house, I'd like to train myself to stop seeing battles through RPGs. Has anyone else had this problem, or perhaps seeing the fights as sequences on popular computer or on-line games?

 

[Ireth]

I have a similar problem every now and then. I do a lot of text-based RPing where I play multiple characters, meaning the POV switches as often as every paragraph. Last night as I was working on my latest WIP, I accidentally switched POVs just two paragraphs into a new scene. Thankfully I realized it before I'd written too much in the new POV, and it was easy enough to erase and rewrite, but it still stuck out to me as "you RP too much". The reverse happens too -- in the Dragon's Egg RPG, on a number of occasions I've found myself switching from first-person-present POV to third-person-past, the latter of which I use for other RPGs and my novels. It can be amusing at times, but it's also a bit frustrating.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

I'm not too familiar with dungeons and dragons but as long as your characters aren't using the exact same spells and using same armor and fighting creatures ripped off the DAD lore then it should be fine. Drawing inspiration from something is not a bad thing.

I am a huge Warhammer nerd and I draw almost all my inspiration from its lore. But I try to take my own spin on it. Even if I have a character who might be based off a character from Warhammer I'm still making my adaptation of it and therefore if the reader also knows Warhammer, they should be able to look at both characters and see a difference.

I suggest posting one of your battle scenes in the showcase section so we can get a better understanding of what you mean. But there's nothing wrong with drawing inspiration from something just don't copy.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

I'm not too familiar with dungeons and dragons but as long as your characters aren't using the exact same spells and using same armor and fighting creatures ripped off the DAD lore then it should be fine. Drawing inspiration from something is not a bad thing.

I am a huge Warhammer nerd and I draw almost all my inspiration from its lore. But I try to take my own spin on it. Even if I have a character who might be based off a character from Warhammer I'm still making my adaptation of it and therefore if the reader also knows Warhammer, they should be able to look at both characters and see a difference.

I suggest posting one of your battle scenes in the showcase section so we can get a better understanding of what you mean. But there's nothing wrong with drawing inspiration from something just don't copy.

 

[ecdavis]

Ireth, the amusing thing in my own situation is, I haven't played an RPG in probably 20 years, except for DDO, and I gave that up when I began working on my first book. I should point out that on 'lesser' fights, such as a handful of people fighting, I can write this without seeing it as an RPG type of battle, but on the grand 'assault on Mordor' type of sequences, I find myself slipping back into my teen years as an AD&D Dungeon Master and having to plot it all out.

 

[Feo Takahari]

I think the simplest solution for the fight scenes is to eliminate the concept of "turn order"--everyone's moving and attacking at once, potentially getting in each other's way if they don't plan well. A little chaos goes a long way towards realism.

 

[Nihal]

...or just consider that the characters' actions during each turn are supposed to be simultaneous. It's not one, then other then another, they happen all during the same time frame, you're not aware of what the previous "players" done until the time frame ended—or the character sees it, but it doesn't eliminate the simultaneous aspect—and actions can stretch a good number of turns.

I would recommend, too, that you stop creating character sheets on the RPG style, it's only going to reinforce the behaviour you wish to stop.

 

[ThinkerX]

I think I've lost my mind. I'm working on the third book of my series, and like many fantasy writers, my characters and settings are heavily influenced by popular Role Playing Games. Though I've read a multitude of fantasy novels, for some reason the largest influence continues to be the settings of RPGs, in particular AD&D type of settings.

You stand in good company then.

Fiests 'Riftworld' began as a D&D type campaign, though it was heavily modified almost from the outset.

Eriksons 'Malazan' also began as a AD&D campaign, and major elements of that show through in the novels.

I dang near copied the AD&D system for parts of the stories I wrote a couple decades ago. Even many of my world notes, which I still use, employ AD&D notation.

But then I started noticing things: AD&D combat and magic didn't seem to fit the 'real world', or even a 'phausible world' all that well. In reality, even a 'tough guy' (Seal or Delta Force type) who takes 'full damage' from a sword isn't going to be doing anything but writhing in pain for a while. Your typical 7th level AD&D fighter, though, simply shrugs it off. And the whole notion of a spell being 'lost to memory' once cast didn't seem right. The game didn't translate all that well to story writing.

So I dug around a bit and found the 'WarHammer' equivilent of AD&D. It seemed to address both those issues, and introduced some nasty psychological elements missing from AD&D...but I still wasn't thrilled. The percentile scores for abilities didn't seem right.

I attempted a merger of the two systems, then gave up.

Years passed. When I got back into writing, I put some thought into this. I decided I was writing stories, NOT playing an RPG, and my magic system and the rest should reflect that. I put together a magic system which seemed credible, and decided to treat combat as something downright nasty...and very, very quick. Now...torture it enough, it probably could be made into a AD&D or Warhammer type system...but the 'house rules' would be a thick book in their own right.

 

[ecdavis]

I never really liked the AD&D hit point and damage system at all, and the whole turn based combat system does not play out well into stories. My problem is that I'm familiar with the game from years and years of being a DM and so when I see a character in a Fantasy type of movie, I tend to think in stats or character classes. I remember Dragon Magazine (the D&D monthly magazine back in the day) used to do the stats on characters from famous books, and that certainly didn't help me 'stating out' book characters.

One thing is that the popularity of the game has led to a lot of creativity going into it and so there are many really nice ideas that tempt a writer. Take the Drow for example. Gary Gygax's version of them really caught on and I remember in the early 1980s thinking, "Man, someone needs to do a series of books about them." . Now they are everywhere.

As for the stuff in my books, most of the 'bad guys' are Undead and I used the D&D versions of most of them. Ghouls that paralyze by touch, for example. Most of them I used are not specific to D&D, I just used the types found in he D&D books. I have the usual selection of zombies, ghosts, wights, wraiths, and so on. Where I'd probably get into trouble if I ever sought to publish it would be in undead such as Death Knights and Liches. I used the AD&D type and both are vital parts of the story, so I couldn't easily change them. I also have Vampires, but here I actually went away from the AD&D vampire and used the more traditional, classical Vampire. I have a few created Undead, such as Reapers and my favorite, Jack-in-Irons, and as far as I can tell, these are original, though with as much stuff that has been generated in the D&D universe over the years, there probably are some monsters who come close to them.

As for the races, the Drow are the only one that would probably be a problem. I have a Dwarf, an Orc, a Half-Ogre and several Half-Elves, but these are not specific to AD&D and they don't all do the stereotypical things that these races do in AD&D. I mention Infravision several times, and I see where in later editions this has been changed to something like 'darkvision'.

Magic would be somewhat of a problem, because I do use a number of D&D spells such as Magic Missiles and Fireball. My characters cast them differently though. Many of the magic items mentioned also tend to come from the game. Elven (I use the Tolkien spelling of 'Elven' instead of 'Elvin') chain mail, girdles of giant strength, and healing potions. Stuff like that, though I have created a number of non D&D magic items and spells.

My main characters are Paladins, right out of the pages of the Player's Handbook, complete with Protection from Evil radiating from them (though it isn't mentioned) and the Laying of Hands to heal others once a day (which I do mention).

Wow, this feels like going to an AA recovery support group and confessing your failures! Or more accurately, an AD&D recovery group ( Hi, my name is Ed and I've let AD&D screw up my stories...) I wish I'd found this group before I started writing the first book and maybe I could have removed some of the influences.


It probably would work as 'Fan Fiction' for AD&D lovers, but now that I've had this epiphany, I'm going to really work on pulling away from all the RPG stuff. The characters have been praised by those who have read my stuff as being well developed and interesting, so I don't think I'll abandon them, just back away from the influences of AD&D.

Anyway, I'm writing this for fun, not to try to impress anyone (which I don't think it probably would anyway), so I'll just count this as a lesson learned and hopefully I'll do better the next time.

 

[Steerpike]

I don't think drow are specific to D&D, either. I read something about it once, with references to mythology and the origins of the word.

 

[TheokinsJ]

I think it's only natural to be influenced by things that inspire you and that you love to play, even I have created 'RPG-like' books, after having played a ton of Skyrim and Assassin's creed ect. Yet I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, so long as you don't have a 'fire ball' spell in your book, or a 'lightning bolt' incantation, or weapon enchantments ect, you can use them- but they are classic examples of RPGs and probably should be stayed well clear from. As for fight sequences- in an RPG don't fights work pretty much the same as in real life? Ok, maybe a little exaggerated and over the top, but they still have elements of realism in them. If you want to stop seeing your fight sequences as rpg battles, my advice would be watch a REAL life battle. For example, go on youtube and watch re-enactments of medieval battles, this will show you how fighting was actually like, Brandon Sanderson also does a really good lecture on fight scenes- I'd definitely recommend checking it out. Movies are also a very good way to visualise fight scenes- not all movies depict battles in a realistic way- but they'll help.

 

[wordwalker]

I'd say the top things to un-learn from RPGs are:

The D&D "hit points." Supposedly those points mean that a skilled fighter keeps blocking and backing away from blows until he's so worn out the next swing finally cuts him, but it's worth watching movies and things to get better images in your head--and then reading some of the Scribes threads on combat to know which of those are realistic.

D&D (or other games') magic and monsters. It's not that these are "bad," but a lot of them are recognizable. More important, they're some of the most distinctive parts of a proper world-- so if your own world doesn't have a least a few things clearly distinct from gaming, you may not be in creative mode yet.

Plotlines. Games love simple, week-to-week "missions"... which can be valid stories, but tend to be a bit stripped-down compared to how other writers flesh out even the same concepts. If your adventure still feels like a game module, it's definitely time to dig deeper.

On the other hand, I have found Ten Tricks from Gaming that it can help writing with.

 

[Devor]

It's all about the characters. It's bad when the main characters feel like a random party band out to solve an adventure by fighting a far-off supervillain and his random-monster henchmen. If that's what your book looks like - I hate to say it - but chuck it (I of course have no idea what your writing looks like). But there's plenty of ways an RPG can inspire a great novel. You just have to emulate the right elements and make sure you remember to focus on developing character arcs that connect with the story.

 

[ecdavis]

Devor, no, it's not a D&D adventure,; I think the plot is okay. I re-read what I had written most recently and I was more pleased with it upon review. Though I had plotted it out like a D&D battle sequence, it turns out that it doesn't read like one. So apparently I have enough sense not to write it that way. Really, when I first began the first book, I planned to keep the magic and monsters to a minimum. But the story just seemed to flow a certain direction and it seemed to fit so well that I went with it.

Fireball and Lightning Bolt spells are really not specific to AD&D. You find them in many books and all over movies of various types, from fantasy to sci-fi to super-hero type of movies. As for Drow, there is still some debate on-line to their origins, but the Drow that are commonly known today are the Gygax Drow.

I am familiar with how medieval style of battle looks and you are right, TheokinsJ, movies don't really do it justice. I always found the D&D idea of hit points rather crazy -- it might make sense for hand to hand combat, but if you take a 1st level Magic User with 4 Hit Points and a 20th level Fighter with over 100 HP and strip them both naked and tie them to a tree, then throw a 10d6 fireball at them, I find it hard to rationalize how the 20th level fighter with over 100 hit points would survive any better than the 1st level Magic User. Or push them into a lava lake. Experience and training would have to bearing on that situation. But in AD&D, your high level character would somehow walk away from it.

At one time some of my friends and I made a vastly different combat system for the game that worked, but it really made advancement less rewarding, as your character would have the same level of HP from the start (based on Constitution). We used a modified version of the much better Runesquest system as our basis. The only bad thing about the Runesquest system was that it took a really long time to get through a simple battle, though the fight was much more realistic.

Wordwalker, I don't want to give the impression that all that I use in my stories is just from AD&D, for there is certainly plenty that is my own creation. The plot line is good, I think, though it certainly won't compare to any of the masters of fantasy, nor am I really trying to do that.

I'd say it was an enjoyable read since it is free and really that is all I was trying to do is present a tale I had in my mind and share it. I'm more of a story-teller than a master of the written word.

 

[Devora]

I don't think drow are specific to D&D, either. I read something about it once, with references to mythology and the origins of the word.

They're not. Dark Elves appear in Norse Mythology, and even Tolkien makes mention of them.

Also, ecdavis,you shouldn't be ashamed to use an influence. Just be sure that your story reads like more than a simple D&D campaign. It's how you write it that's most important of all.

 

[Ireth]

They're not. Dark Elves appear in Norse Mythology, and even Tolkien makes mention of them.

I don't think Tolkien's dark elves as synonymous with drow. In the Tolkienverse, they're just the elves who never went to the Undying Lands when the summons came from the Valar back before the Sun, and thus they never saw the light of the Two Trees. I've never heard of any physical difference between them and the elves who did see the Trees. If someone has read the supplementary materials (History of Middle-earth, Laws and Customs of the Eldar, etc.) and wishes to prove me wrong, you're welcome to do so.

 

[ecdavis]

Well, I'm currently reading Tolkien's 'Unfinished Tales', (if you want to read a really sad tale, read about Turin in this book) but you are right, they were not dark skinned Drow. There are some Norse tales of Drow or Trow, that mention underground worlds, but even these are not black skinned. Most Northern European tales of Elves mention two common elements: First, a distortion of time and/or space, and second, a realm that is either extradimentional or often underground, often under a hill. Interestingly, many American Indian tribes had very similar tales. So Gygax's Drow would have not seemed too odd to Celtic, Norse and Germanic people. They are incredibly popular today.

Devora, thank you for your encouragement, I write somewhat simple, but I wanted more of a 'Tom Sawyer' feel to my books rather than a High Fantasy type of story. I'm not trying to be a Hillbilly Tolkien either, I decided from the start to put the story first, before trying to conform to a specific style.

I don't think Tolkien's dark elves as synonymous with drow. In the Tolkienverse, they're just the elves who never went to the Undying Lands when the summons came from the Valar back before the Sun, and thus they never saw the light of the Two Trees. I've never heard of any physical difference between them and the elves who did see the Trees. If someone has read the supplementary materials (History of Middle-earth, Laws and Customs of the Eldar, etc.) and wishes to prove me wrong, you're welcome to do so.

 

[ThinkerX]

As for the stuff in my books, most of the 'bad guys' are Undead and I used the D&D versions of most of them. Ghouls that paralyze by touch, for example. Most of them I used are not specific to D&D, I just used the types found in he D&D books. I have the usual selection of zombies, ghosts, wights, wraiths, and so on. Where I'd probably get into trouble if I ever sought to publish it would be in undead such as Death Knights and Liches. I used the AD&D type and both are vital parts of the story, so I couldn't easily change them. I also have Vampires, but here I actually went away from the AD&D vampire and used the more traditional, classical Vampire. I have a few created Undead, such as Reapers and my favorite, Jack-in-Irons, and as far as I can tell, these are original, though with as much stuff that has been generated in the D&D universe over the years, there probably are some monsters who come close to them.

Clark Ashton Smith, a cofounder Lovecrafts mythos, more than once included creatures pretty much identical to liches in his writings...back in the 1930's. Death Knights would be more problematic.

For me...zombies and ghouls have been around in fiction (and kinda sorta in mythology) for a long while now. There are enough reports of ghosts going back thousands of years to where they're acceptable as well, though they are nothing like the AD&D ghosts, wights, wraiths, ect.

As for the races, the Drow are the only one that would probably be a problem. I have a Dwarf, an Orc, a Half-Ogre and several Half-Elves, but these are not specific to AD&D and they don't all do the stereotypical things that these races do in AD&D. I mention Infravision several times, and I see where in later editions this has been changed to something like 'darkvision'.

Tolkien pretty much invented orcs, though there was a mythological basis of sorts.

Dwarves turn up in mythologies all over the planet, though they often bear little resemblance to the AD&D version.

Slightly different versions of elves turn up in both celtic and scandanavian mythology, and ...elf like beings... turn up elsewhere as well. The 'Faerie Queens' of central europe (more or less) being a good example, and there are somewhat similiar 'spirit people' in asian and south asian mythology. Thing to keep in mind here is these beings were usually seen as spirits, about a notch and a half below gods by these people. A lot of the time, they also had unpleasant reputations.

Drow existed in scandanavian mythology as 'Dock Alfar' - dark elves who lived underground and had nastier than usual dispositions...but their society and abilities were nothing like AD&D drow. Then again, in mythology, even ordinary elves frequently had a dire reputation.

Magic would be somewhat of a problem, because I do use a number of D&D spells such as Magic Missiles and Fireball. My characters cast them differently though. Many of the magic items mentioned also tend to come from the game. Elven (I use the Tolkien spelling of 'Elven' instead of 'Elvin') chain mail, girdles of giant strength, and healing potions. Stuff like that, though I have created a number of non D&D magic items and spells.

Magic was one of the things I thought longest and hardest about. In addition to AD&D and WarHammer, I read a huge pile of 'psychic study' type books: pretty much account after account of what mentalist types were claimed to have done, along with histories of the theory and practice of magic in the ancient world. I finally decided the psionic research was 'true enough' for writing purposes, and wrote the stories accordingly.

Some of my mages can manage a wimpy sort of 'fireball' (applied pyrokinesis), many can levitate, set wards of one sort or another, and some can teleport. In accord with ancient magical beliefs (and Lovecrafts mythos) the more demented ones attempt to cut deals with powerful 'demons' from beyond so as to command even greater power.

My main characters are Paladins, right out of the pages of the Player's Handbook, complete with Protection from Evil radiating from them (though it isn't mentioned) and the Laying of Hands to heal others once a day (which I do mention).

Characters that can manage all or even some of what an AD&D Paladin can do are very few and far between in actual mythology. There are holy warriors aplenty, who were sometimes capable of the odd mystical feat...but in other ways they didn't fit the Paladin mode. Even in fiction prior to the creation of AD&D, paladin type characters are scarce. The biggest example would probably be 'Three hearts and three lions' by Poul Anderson (if I remember right), but even then...hmmm...

I do have a couple orders of holy warriors in my world, but they lack most of the Paladins mystical abilities.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Drow come from Shetlandic folklaw (I had to google that), which means you're safe using the term. However in my view it has become a staple of D and D and I would tend in most cases to use Dark Elves instead to avoid the tie in. Dark elves of course are also in D and D but they also exist outside of that world and so (hopefully) the reader won't immediately read it and say RPG. Hopefully they'll say some kind of elf.

I think you're safe with lich too. The term predates D and D and derives from a German word for corpse. Lichlords on the other hand might be stepping on some toes. I think Amrose Bierce had a story about one. (By the by, if you have the time read the Devil's Dictionary - it is a brilliant laugh and has some insights into the human condition. It is actually written as a dictionary though, not a novel).

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Devor]

Devor, no, it's not a D&D adventure,; I think the plot is okay. I re-read what I had written most recently and I was more pleased with it upon review. Though I had plotted it out like a D&D battle sequence, it turns out that it doesn't read like one. So apparently I have enough sense not to write it that way. Really, when I first began the first book, I planned to keep the magic and monsters to a minimum. But the story just seemed to flow a certain direction and it seemed to fit so well that I went with it.

So long as it doesn't look like a typical campaign and your characters develop - which is different from plot - then you should be fine; people read D&D-type settings all the time.