Plot Armor: I can't resist it, what do?

[BearBear]

Title.

My lovelies are too dear to me, even a fresh one I barely know. I just can't bring myself to harm them permanently. Physically anyway. Emotional damage is a rite of passage but physical harm including anything remotely depraved is just beyond me. There's a rock solid wall preventing me.

Have you ever scaled that wall?

They're like children to me, my children, and I can't abuse them.

 

[Queshire]

*shrug* You never know where your line lies until you cross it. Push yourself. Make yourself uncomfortable.

 

[ThinkerX]

At times, yes. Depends on the demands of the plot.

In the 'Empire' series, Tia experiences episodes from prior incarnations. One or two of those ended in rather gruesome deaths for that edition of Tia.

Also, in the 'Empire' series, Sir Peter Cortez, a rather central POV character gets knocked off a cliff and nearly dies. He get healed - but that comes with a steep price.

Kyle, another character in that same series, is a massive oaf with a scar bisecting his face. In 'Empire: Country' we see how he got that scar - it wasn't pretty, and he was fortunate to have survived.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I've thought it might be tough, but in the end, the deaths are essential, and in the moment, the drama supersedes the emotion. And hey! I can always revive them in dreams or flashbacks or whatever, which is effective for readers who miss characters as well.

 

[pmmg]

It was never a wall for me.

My sense is i could give encouragement, but it will not matter, this is not your first thread of this type. Whatever your mental block, no one’s gonna break it but you. Id say take the bull by the horns and do it, and make your stories what you want. Children are not meant to get through the world unscathed. They are meant to grow.

 

[Finchbearer]

Well… I am having the same problem so there’s no way I could answer this question!

 

[Mad Swede]

Several times. None of my main protagonists have died (yet) but they've all been seriously hurt with long terms consequences for them. If your story is to have any sort of tension in apparently dangerous situations then the threat has to be real and credible - and that means your characters need to get hurt or even killed.

 

[BearBear]

I've thought it might be tough, but in the end, the deaths are essential, and in the moment, the drama supersedes the emotion. And hey! I can always revive them in dreams or flashbacks or whatever, which is effective for readers who miss characters as well.

Maybe you can appreciate this, Saving Private Ryan would have been a horrible movie if he died in the field. Everyone else can die, but Ryan *has to live*. All my protagonists are Ryan to me. I can't even begin to think about not saving them.

Well… I am having the same problem so there’s no way I could answer this question!

What I really liked about indie unpublishable works was that terrible uncertainty. I don't get that real sense of uncertainty and fear in published works. In GOT and Stephen King there is near certainty that a protagonist or two will die so it's more of a dissapointment if they don't.

So maybe I'm crazy but I want the possibility of my protagonist dying, I want to even convice myself into thinking this is possible but if they actually did I'd hate myself.

So here's the thing, I want to feel like it's possible even if in doing so the story is ruined.

There has to be a way. I watched "The Dark Knight" and my anti-hero, the joker, was who I didn't want to die. I couldn't care if Alfred died or Dent or Gordan or the girl, if they killed the Joker the story would have sucked. The joker was the most interesting character, he's the one with a real life lesson, Batman is a playboy billionaire, get him out of here. The joker got it, he understood the true nature of human beings, no one is uncorruptable. If anyone the joker comes closest to uncorruptable "can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with".

To me, if you kill that character you're admitting no one can escape nature. A thrilling and fun story becomes sad and uninteresting. Applejack is dead in canon, that was unnecessary unless the message of the magic of friendship is, "there is no honesty." That's a sad realization of human (pony) nature, and it seals it as an immutable fact in that universe.

Are we really monsters? In my mind if one of my main characters die, we are. Do I have to admit that to become a good writer? Maybe I'll pass.

 

[BearBear]

My sense is i could give encouragement, but it will not matter, this is not your first thread of this type. Whatever your mental block, no one’s gonna break it but you.

Yes I know, because I'm struggling here. What's this site for?

 

[pmmg]

Well, what can I do? You are resistant to doing it.

I mean, on one level this is a writer development problem, and another this is personal issue. For personal issues, I am not sure we are the right place to be to address it.

Find a trusted friend, and have them write the scene you want, and do someone some harm. Then keep it

You know, I am not sure it is bad that no one gets hurt, its just a different type of story. It also you who is saying it needs to be rougher. I can only say that you are the only source (so far) of what your story needs. I believe in giving it what it needs. If you need this and cant do it, Its not just your characters who need to grow, writer you needs to as well.

 

[Mad Swede]

So maybe I'm crazy but I want the possibility of my protagonist dying, I want to even convice myself into thinking this is possible but if they actually did I'd hate myself.

So here's the thing, I want to feel like it's possible even if in doing so the story is ruined.

Of course it's possible. The question is, do you dare challenge yourself like that?

To me, if you kill that character you're admitting no one can escape nature. A thrilling and fun story becomes sad and uninteresting. Applejack is dead in canon, that was unnecessary unless the message of the magic of friendship is, "there is no honesty." That's a sad realization of human (pony) nature, and it seals it as an immutable fact in that universe.

Is that a problem? Our readers know that they're not immortal, so why wouldn't they accept that our hero is mortal?

Are we really monsters? In my mind if one of my main characters die, we are. Do I have to admit that to become a good writer? Maybe I'll pass.

Yes, human beings are monsters, deep inside. Anyone can be induced to do awful things, the only unknowns are what it takes to trigger that and how long it takes to get them into that state.

If you're having trouble with the idea of killing or hurting a main character then perhaps you haven't thought through your story arc properly. Done properly killing a main character can really make a story. But it needs to be handled well and that means thinking about the consequences for other characters, effectively where the plot goes after that and why.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Some protags should never die. Some should. It all depends on the story. If you're writing Romeo and Juliet and can't pull the trigger, so to speak, then **Splat** you better turn it into a RomCom, heh heh. There is a large audience of readers who don't want leads to die, that's why so many published books are happily ever after. The biggest genre out there is Romance, and let's face it, happy endings rule.

I would also argue that there are incorruptible people, even if you want to say that something in their past "corrupted" their human nature into being incorruptible. This would be the Batman type. His past built a high degree of conviction. These people exist. The Joker was corrupted in order to become what he is, and really, we don't see enough of his character to decide what you say, that's viewer input.

 

[Queshire]

do someone some harm.

In writing. Let's just make sure we're all clear about that.

Anyways, yeah, you know what you want for your story. You know the sort of stuff to do in story to achieve it. All that's left is taking that step.

Of course, like pmmg says there's plenty of stories where death or maiming isn't on the tables just because it wouldn't fit the tone.

I mean, I'm not opposed to cruelty in my writing. I had one of my protagonists chop a guy's balls off (there were extenuating circumstances,) but I just don't like writing fight scenes where I have to dance around things to keep my characters from being injured too early into the fight. So I came up with something that works like HP in a video game where channeling mana produces an aura around you that works to resist injury.

 

[pmmg]

There has to be a way. I watched "The Dark Knight" and my anti-hero, the joker, was who I didn't want to die. I couldn't care if Alfred died or Dent or Gordan or the girl, if they killed the Joker the story would have sucked. The joker was the most interesting character, he's the one with a real life lesson, Batman is a playboy billionaire, get him out of here. The joker got it, he understood the true nature of human beings, no one is uncorruptable. If anyone the joker comes closest to uncorruptable "can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with".

I believe you have misunderstood the Batman character. Joker wants to prove him corrupt and cant. The joker is a contrast to batman. Batman makes his world not make sense.

 

[Finchbearer]

I have a character who I plan to kill off later into the story just at the moment where he has redeemed himself. I think when this type of thing happens it has a much bigger impact.

And I’ve read books or watched things where I don’t want the ‘anti-hero’ to die. Why was I genuinely sad when the character Omar from The Wire died? Why was I rooting for the guy who ripped off drug dealers? He wasn’t just a villain, he had some empathy, some humanity in there that made his character complex and interesting.

 

[pmmg]

In writing. Let's just make sure we're all clear about that.

Ummm...yeah...that's how I meant it


Incidentally, what you describe is not plot armor. Its not the plot that is keeping them from harm.

Even for myself, there are some characters who will pull through because the plot needs them to make it. But even they don't really need all their limbs.

 

[FifthView]

Incidentally, what you describe is not plot armor. Its not the plot that is keeping them from harm.

Even for myself, there are some characters who will pull through because the plot needs them to make it.

This highlights an important concept.

Having "plot armor" is not an issue if the plot requires them to be victorious, survive, or get the girl or guy and live happily ever after.

The real issue is making this plot armor too apparent.

Naturally, romances tend to forgo even introducing the question of survival. Not all.

Other genres and types of stories introduce danger as a nearly ever-present reality. People get hurt. People die. Even in these tales, plot armor is necessary—at least, at various points in the plot if not entirely throughout—but to make the story exciting and "real," you typically don't want the reader to know that X character has plot armor.

This brings up the interesting possibility that plot armor is an important part of the plot, heh. I mean, as an extreme example, if the tale is about Superman surviving for centuries, millennia, and all his loves, friends, colleagues always keep dying, then I'd say his plot armor should be made apparent.

 

[FifthView]

...so I'll just add that you can love your darlings and know full well they won't die or even be seriously maimed. The point is: Don't let the reader know this.

 

[Mad Swede]

...so I'll just add that you can love your darlings and know full well they won't die or even be seriously maimed. The point is: Don't let the reader know this.

Yes, you can do it like that. But I have an alternative approach. I've already written the death scenes for my main protagonists. I did that partly for very personal reasons, but I've realised that it gives me as the author some alternatives. Effectively I now have a way to end things, and the choice of when to do so is mine. So far those scenes haven't been right for any of the stories I've written, nor the book I'm working on. But one day...

 

[BearBear]

Yes, human beings are monsters, deep inside. Anyone can be induced to do awful things, the only unknowns are what it takes to trigger that and how long it takes to get them into that state.

Thank you and I know you're being honest and genuine. I don't want to believe it yet or perhaps ever. Everything points that way, the data is overwhelming but that doesn't mean there aren't outliers. I believe in the concept of a higher self, one that is completely dissociated with animal urges and desire. What they are is likely greater and encompasses that anyway but the totality is drowned out by redemptive qualities.

The philosophical idea is, even if you're a monster by nature, can you resist being a monster behaviorally. Not just sometimes or most of the time, all the time without fail. So I feel like this is that redemptive thing for me. But if you always choose by moral code (a heroic trait) is there really a choice? Do you become an automaton?

Back to the point, even if I'm a monster, at least I don't do this one thing. But I don't even have an urge to do it, I feel like I want it to be a possibility so that I have to work to prevent it, but I don't. So am I then an automaton, unable to choose otherwise. If I can do this, it proves I'm not, but then it also proves I have no (or not enough) redemptive quality and therefore too can't presume anyone else does.

If I've lost you that's okay, this is more for me than anyone. This is just me wrestling with my humanity in the context of such things as the depravity of the Catholic church and the corruption of society at every level. I'm not dumb enough to feel like I can fix it, and I feel like even as an Angel with a flaming sword tasked to kill all the sinners, I'd be left with the notion that if even I can't be anything but a monster, then there is no salvation for anyone. Everyone dies. So I'm seeking to test that too, but leaving only the automatons would be a mistake in my estimation.

By killing a main protagonist, I want to prove I'm not an automaton but then I won't do that unless I can also prove I'm not a monster by doing this.

Done properly killing a main character can really make a story. But it needs to be handled well and that means thinking about the consequences for other characters, effectively where the plot goes after that and why.

My writing isn't just a story to me, I feel like it's my soul written on paper. Not only that, that it's not immutable, and it's corruptible. I want to understand it without corrupting it in the process. I'm taking this way too seriously I know, but it's the fun part of this for me.

I would also argue that there are incorruptible people, even if you want to say that something in their past "corrupted" their human nature into being incorruptible. This would be the Batman type.

I want to believe there are incorruptible people, but I need proof, and I'm the only one I can test it on honestly.

Adding to what I said above, how can you prove Batman isn't a will-less automaton? If he must choose according to his moral ideals then does he have a choice at all?

About the Joker, I may be projecting and adding and that's fine, I see an archetype there as I described even if it's unintended. The archetype stands even if it's not canon. It's my interpretation given incomplete data. Perhaps corruption was necessary to forge him, but there are aspects now that are incorruptible further maybe. So if his goals happen to align to some desired dystopian ideal, then he becomes an incorruptible hero.