Point me to a good FAQ on fight scenes?

[Lord Ben]

This forum has been a huge help by itself plus links to other great stuff that helps enormously. I started by just writing something and then looking at advice and it seems I'd hit all of the new guy errors that were commonly referred to in the blogs.

Now I have put a fight scene to paper (with not a suddenly to be found!) and am interested in reading some about it to see how I fared compared to what to avoid and things like that. Too descriptive, not descriptive enough, things like that.

Writing a fight scene gives me ~40,000,000 results and I'm not sure what to spend my time on and what to avoid.

 

[CupofJoe]

I don't know of an FAQ but this might be of interest.
Limyaael’s Rant No.260: Single Combat Scenes

 

[Butterfly]

How to Write Battle Scenes

Omnivoracious: R.A. Salvatore on How to Write a Damn Good Fight Scene

Omnivoracious: The Art of the Epic Battle

Omnivoracious: Make Your Fight Scenes 20% Cooler

 

[Guy]

Actually I have several issues with the way R.A. Salvatore did fight scenes.

 

[Ankari]

Actually I have several issues with the way R.A. Salvatore did fight scenes.

What would they be?

 

[Feo Takahari]

R.A. Salvatore does a "chess match" sort of fight scene, determining step by step how each combatant responds to (and attempts to control) the events around them. It's very well-suited to a one-on-one melee battle between two well-trained warriors, but you might need different advice for, say, a group of soldiers frantically trying to hold their position against an enemy charge.

What sort of fights are you writing, Lord Ben? Who are the combatants, and what are they armed with?

 

[Lord Ben]

Fantasy Western, Orc Eastwood type stuff.

I find I learn best by just writing something and then reading the proper way to do it after and then rewrite it after applying what I've learned. A lesson sinks in better when I see myself make that mistake.

Here is the rough draft. I don't know where in the story I'd place the scenery and such so I just went with a generic "Hey, we don't like your kind around here" type entrance. I tried to focus on the fight part itself but I'll leave the rest in for context. What I'm looking for is something good to read that will let me know what I could improve, etc. There is SO much out there it's hard to know what sources know what they're talking about and which spend more time blogging about writing than writing.

=================

Monty stepped off the train “Feels good to be on steady ground again.”

Shelly stopped at the door and waited for a hand to help off that never arrived “This town looks a bit run down. The buildings aren't even painted and some are starting to rot already, they should have seen it coming.”

“Baron Lefton doesn't get many visitors through here. His hills are where most of the snort rock comes from, rock dealers aren’t fussy about rotten floorboards.” Monty didn’t face her and watched as a pair of men approached from the station. One a dirty looking man and the other a man with a hint of giant’s blood carrying a double barreled shotgun over his shoulder.

Shelly didn’t listen or look. She stooped down, running her fingers through the dirt. “It looks like good soil, I wonder if...”

She was startled when they spoke “We don’t like orcs around here. Get back on the train or there will be trouble.” the dirty man spit onto the ground at Shelly’s feet then wiped tobacco juice off his chin whiskers with his left hand while keeping the other free.

“Railroads are free for all to travel on, you know the rules.” Monty replied through clenched teeth. “I just need a mule and I’m leaving.”

He turned to the bigger one, “He looks like that outlaw on the poster, don’t you think? They both have tusks.” the falseness of his statement was obvious. “Dead or alive, that’s what it said.”

Monty knew it was heading downhill “Get the sheriff then. He can sort it out.”

“Well now, that’s just too bad because he’s out of town. One dead orc looks just like another though.” He pointed to the train that was about to leave again. “Better get back on or we’re going to have some trouble.”

**The Meat**

“I don’t want trouble.” the whistle blew and the engine sent out a blast of thick black smoke.

“Well, you’ve found it.” he went for his pistols.

Luck was on Monty’s side as the swirling plume covered the platform at that moment. Monty heard the first shot go off but by then vision was down to almost nothing. He ducked as he drew but fumbled with the revolver. He pulled it out and heard a second shot impact the railcar behind him.

Fearing the shotgun would be less likely to miss he fired two shots off in the man’s last direction and was rewarded as he heard it fire twice in response to no effect. Monty tried to make himself small as he raced towards the man, knowing he’d be reloading.

The smoke cleared briefly as they made eye contact. The big man snapped the shotgun closed and began to lift it but Monty began firing. The first was hurried and missed but the second hit him in the arm as he fired, causing him to miss again.

The man came towards him swinging the empty gun like a club, Monty willed himself to relax and calmly shot the man through the chest before ducking beneath the swing as he stumbled and fell to the ground.

Shelly screamed.

“I’ve got your girl.” the man was still obscured in the black smoke and the echo of his voice off the depot buildings gave Monty pause.

“Let her go, I think your friend is bleeding out.” Monty could feel the dirt beneath his boots rapidly turn to mud and knew he was already dead.

The man only laughed and fired twice at the sound of Monty’s voice. “He wasn’t my friend.”

“And she’s not my girl.”

Just then the breeze shifted the smoke, he could see the man holding Shelly in front of him but facing towards Monty’s echo instead.

He lifted the pistol and shot him clean through the side of his head from only a few yards away.

**End of Meat**

Shelly dropped to her knees and began to cry. “I was scared I was going to die. I thought you were about to leave.”

“I just wanted him to think you didn’t matter.”

“Do I?”

He didn’t have much in the way of words to offer for comfort. Monty went to adjust his hat but found only scalp and realized it went missing. He saw his hat on the ground sporting a new bullet hole.

“Lucky again? Maybe there is something to your magic after all?”

Monty just grunted in disbelief. “People miss all the time.” He pointed to a horse tied up at the station. “We might as well add horse thievery to our list since we’ll be wanted for murder anyway.”

“But it waself defense.”

“Not in this Barony.”

Monty swung into the saddle and swept her up behind him. They were missing most of the gear he had hoped to find before they set off into the elven forest but could not wait to look around.

 

[wordwalker]

I like Monty's approach to fighting, it's so much more believable to have a character win not by outclassing everyone but by spotting something like a cloud of smoke and pouncing on the opportunity. (I'm not sure trains release smoke all at once, but this engine might be different, or it could be "blowing off steam.") Plus, you capture how many period bullets can miss or not hit that hard, with both sides.

I might have liked some mention that Monty could hear the other man stumbling around, that led him to bumble into Shelly and grab her. It's a little cliche that the thug would try a hostage, but easier if you show it was the opportunity he got and he just tried to use it for what it was worth.

 

[johnsonjoshuak]

I would suggest shorter sentences. Yours seem kind of long; action scenes with shorter sentences "seem" to move "faster".

 

[wordwalker]

People always suggest shorter sentences for fights. I like using some longer ones, very carefully structured-- the idea is that in a busy fight, a longer sentence conveys that more things keep coming at you without giving you so many chances to stop and reorient yourself.

 

[Guy]

What would they be?

Maybe because I study martial arts and am an arms and armor geek I'm taking it too seriously, but:

his fights are too elaborate and go on too long. Most fights don't last very long. The exception to that is if the fighters are well armored or have absolutely no skill, but otherwise two men going at it with sharp objects will end pretty quickly. The more effective martial arts tend to be simple. All the complicated fancy moves that look so cool are also very, very easy to screw up, especially in the chaos of a fight. In fact, that's what tends to happen when people try to use them in fights - they screw up and get their asses kicked by someone who doesn't have anything like their technical skill. One of the last of Salvatore's books I read featrued a dwarf who fought using twin flails. While such a style wouldn't be impossible, it would be more awkward than two armodillos mating at a full gallop. In other words, it's something a good fighter wouldn't do. The more complicated a fighting style, the more things that can go wrong and/or get screwed up.

My other issue with Salvatore's fight scenes is his habit of coping out. For example, there were several fights between Drizzt and Artemis, and with each one I'm thinking we're getting closer to the final showdown, the battle royale, and I'm truly looking foward to it. The two characters meet and... nothing. They exchange words and go their separate ways, and I'm left with my mouth hanging open thinking WTF?! All that lead-up and then nothing? An unexpected twist, yes, but not a good one.

I'm a bit of a stickler when it comes to fight scenes, though. I try to make mine authentic. Granted, I take certain liberties (magic weapons, epic heroes and such) but I try to make my fightscenes as realistic as I can. I also hate it in movies when people shot with a pistol go flying backwards.

 

[Lord Ben]

I shortened a few after writing but with a gun battle happening via sound instead of sight I found I started to run into a clarity issue if I shortened too much. And I kind of wanted a tactical type encounter rather than everything happening super quick.

As for the kidnapping of the girl being cliche I am going for a bit of a pulp western meets fantasy feel so I was aiming for cliche. Monty Carson and the Search for Elven Gold just screams cliche type title, I imagine the cover art to be a Clint Eastwood type pose but with an Orc under the outfit, and it's kind of a rip off of the Seven Cities of Gold type legend only with magical elves instead of native americans.

It might still be a mistake in the end, but it was intentional.. heh.

Thanks for the feedback and links to good articles on writing a fight scene, learned a lot to go with.

 

[wordwalker]

Most fights don't last very long. The exception to that is if the fighters are well armored or have absolutely no skill, but otherwise two men going at it with sharp objects will end pretty quickly. The more effective martial arts tend to be simple. All the complicated fancy moves that look so cool are also very, very easy to screw up, especially in the chaos of a fight. In fact, that's what tends to happen when people try to use them in fights - they screw up and get their asses kicked by someone who doesn't have anything like their technical skill.

Excellent point.

I think most of the "too-cinematic style" of fights comes from writers being determined to find a move more colorful than those Basics That Work-- when it isn't the writer just not knowing what works, of course. So you get "awesome but impractical" maneuvers being their own reason (because, better original than tried-and-true, right?), and also umpteen proper moves being reduced to "gosh, it never quite works" (villain marksmanship, anyone?) or just not used at all ("if they shot the horses, there wouldn't be a movie"). The first is trying to bring variety and character to the fight and the other two are to stop it being over too soon, but common sense shouldn't be the first casualty of war.

I'd say the rule of thumb for a dramatic fight should be to know the simple, efficient attacks and teamwork that do the job, then see if there's a way to plot why some of those don't work--cover, magic, and so on--and start playing with those. But don't be afraid to let the basics still work, maybe just when we're starting to think nobody's going to get an easy shot-- fights ought to be unpredictable. (Or if it happens right at the start, it can be grim or funny; remember Indy?)

 

[Bruce McKnight]

I think the key is to stick to your style. If the rest of your prose is very detailed and you spend a full page describing each new character's appearance, it would stunt your rhythm to have a high-level approach to a fight scene. On the other hand, if you are a minimalist and chisel your words away to describe things with the fewest keystrokes possible, your readers would feel jilted if you suddenly launched into a highly detailed step-by-step account of a fight.

You can find a thousand blogs telling you to write your fight scenes with step-by-step accounts and a thousand more telling you that it's "wrong" to do it that way. Find your style, emulate writers you like.

Salvatore is one of the most polarizing fight scene writers I have read about. When I read the critiques, all the negative feedback makes sense, but when I read his fight scenes in the context of his books, I think they flow just fine with the overall narrative. I think most of us can agree that "Drizzt wins because no one can beat his hardcore scimitar style" starts to get a little old after the twelfth book, but I don't think that means the way he writes the fight scenes is "wrong." Oh and he's sold more books than me.

I say write your fight scene once on each end of the pendulum, once trying to be as detailed as possible and once trying to get your vision across with the fewest words possible, then re-read them in a week and write something in the middle that fits the style of the rest of your story. I hate doing writing exercises like that, but I'm not above recommending them to others.

 

[Bruce McKnight]

Read history book.. it'll help you better

Agree. I'm a big fan of The Reader's Companion to Military History by Cowley and Parker.

 

[Sanctified]

Check out Steven Pressfield's "Gates of Fire," which is a book about the battle of Thermopylae -- not the fantasy 300 version of it with grotesque monsters and supernatural soldiers, but the actual, horrific Battle of Thermopylae fought by real men.

Pressfield's a former Marine, and Gates of Fire is on the USMC recommended reading list. The dude is masterful when it comes to battle scenes, but I think just as important, he knows that it's just as important to illustrate what's at stake for the combatants. The book is about the battle, sure, but the vast majority of it is dedicated to showing us who the Spartans were, how they lived, what they held sacred.

And, of course, it's a great read. Good luck!

 

[Caged Maiden]

The man came towards him swinging the empty gun like a club, Monty willed himself to relax and calmly shot the man through the chest before ducking beneath the swing as he stumbled and fell to the ground.

If you ask me, lines like this are the worst offenders in fight scenes. Here's what I would do with this excerpt:

The enormous brute with the shotgun swung it like a club, aiming at anything he might hit in the haze. Monty squinted through watery eyes, stifling a cough. Even as far as big went, his opponent dwarfed him. What was it Monty's father used to say? "Size only matters in bedsport and..." Something else. What was it?

Monty took aim.

Patience. Not his strongest virtue.

The shotgun crossed over Monty's head, ruffling the patch of hair on top, but passing straight through the smoke. Squeeze. That's it, nice and easy. The spark lit and the bang sounded. Monty ducked beneath a startled, desperate blow from the shotgun. Off balance, he fought to keep his feet. But the shotgun never came back to take advantage. It fell to the ground with a dull thud and the enormous bastard fell beside it. Well, sort of on top of it. Blood oozed, dark, from his side. Giant blood confirmed.

Oh yeah, that was it. "Size only matters in bedsport and giant-hunting." But then, his father was a professional drunk, retired from the senate, and didn't know the first thing about giant-hunting...




Okay... so that's what I'd do, anyways. What you had in that sentence initially, was unclear, too many things going on, and it felt all over. Not that the whole passage is the same, but I think one thing it lacked for me was insight from the character. This often happens, that people write a fight scene and it's sort of a choreographed blow-by-blow. Which, sort of hs a place, but it's not particularly engaging. My article on MS airs in a couple days, where I compare writing fight scenes to writing romantic scenes. When I get the link, I'll post it here. But anyways, I'd look at where you can make things really clear, where you can enter voice, and where you can make things unique.

 

[Lord Ben]

I really really loved your version of it. It's good to know I can be more wordy and reveal a bit into the character during a fight and still be interesting (to me at least) to read.

Most of my favorite combat books are military fiction like Hunt for Red October and such, I actually prefer in my fantasy like LotR or Game of Thrones when combat is something that is largely glossed over whether it's Bilbo getting knocked out or just a POV from someone listening to the sounds of battle. I don't feel that style suits a western type story though and I find myself forced to discover some interesting way to do things.

Thanks to all so far, so many good things to ponder.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

You don't have to gloss over any combat Ben. Just focus on the advantages that writing has over visual media. Train your mind to think of fight scenes differently. We can't show the action of a fight like a movie can. When you try, it winds up reading like a choreography rather than a tense moment in time.

Instead, focus on what characters think & feel during intense periods. These are the things that film can't do as effectively but writers can elaborate on them as much or as little as needed. As writers, we also control pacing more naturally than visual medias can, without employing camera gimmicks.

Before I layout any action laced scene, I take time to consider a couple things:
1) Who is the best POV?
2) How does that POV react to the events?

Sometimes your choice of POV will be limited depending on the style of story you're writing. Other times, like in a large battle, you'll have several choices. My method is to choose the POV that will have the most emotional, interesting, or important viewpoint. Once you've chosen your POV, consider how that character feels amidst the scene. Is he terrified? Pissing his pants? Is she determined, trying to save a child and willing to sacrifice herself to do so, forcing herself to swallow fear? Is that grizzled and jaded gunfighter in his glory because killing is the only thing that fills him with emotion anymore? There's just so many ways to show the deeper aspects of character in conflict. Fight scenes are great for characterization because no conflict is more immediate.

My number 1 Rule for Action Scenes:
The events themselves are far less important than the reaction of the characters involved.

There are certainly other ways to construct action scenes. The method above has worked well for me. Experiment with it and see how it works for you.

 

[wordwalker]

Here's a great source: 10 Dirty Tricks to spice up your Fight Scenes. The name says it all... except, each trick also adds the key point What Could Go Wrong.