Size Before Order

[Svrtnsse]

I only recently learned that there are actually rules for how to order adjectives in English. Before this, I'd just gone by what felt right to me and not really thought much about it. Turns out there's actually a system to it - here:

1. Quantity
2. Value/Opinion
3. Size
4. Temperature
5. Age
6. Shape
7. Color
8. Origin
9. Material

Source: Ordering multiple adjectives | English Grammar Guide | EF

Maybe this isn't so new to many of you, but it's new to me in that it got me thinking about why things are ordered like this.

My completely unscientific and unresearched first thought is that it's arranged like this because it's equivalent to the order we notice things in. I'm not sure it quite fits with the entire list, but it works well enough as a starting theory.

Now, how does this apply to writing - I mean, apart from the obvious?

What I'm thinking is this is a good way to organize a descriptions in general, even if they span over multiple sentences or even paragraphs. I like to think that descriptions should begin with the big picture and zoom in on the details, and a list like the one above might allow you to help organize your descriptions more intuitively.

I don't know for sure that this is the case, but I feel like there may be a point to it.
What's your thinking? Does it make sense?

 

[spectre]

I think it could matter but there could be vases you might want to stray from it for similar accentuation but then it could be something a reader will totally overlooked.

Sent from my LGLS675 using Tapatalk

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

I've heard of this. The interesting thing is, it's something we do instinctively, without noticing. It's always an ugly blue plastic dinosaur, not a plastic blue ugly dinosaur. I didn't even know about this until recently because it's not something we learn. We just know.

I wonder: do other languages have similar rules? Are they the same as ours or different?

And yes, I've found that I do arrange larger descriptions in basically this way. Starting with the big picture, working my way toward the details.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Saying them out of order will (basically) sound wrong to the ear, which brings us to a chicken and egg argument. But in the order we notice things? I'm not going to go there, for the most part. It'll work sometimes, but not others. Quantity could be a fine detail, or material, material could be first thing a person notices. It depends entirely on what we're talking about.

Descriptions going from broad to detail is good but not always.

Probably a case of overthinking, LOL.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I would say this is a rule based on a convention in language, rather than the opposite. It's a roll with it and mess with it so long as it sounds good sort of thing.

The opposite of this rule (for how it was created) would be something like the old split infinitive "rule" which has kind of gone the way of the dodo. If I recall correctly from a linguistics course many moons ago, the basis for not being allowed to split infinitives was it didn't happen in Latin... because you can't split the infinitive in Latin, because it's one word. Forcing English grammar to fit Latin is an interesting thing, LOL.

Oh! and the better rule for writing, don't pile on adjectives! LOL.

I've heard of this. The interesting thing is, it's something we do instinctively, without noticing. It's always an ugly blue plastic dinosaur, not a plastic blue ugly dinosaur. I didn't even know about this until recently because it's not something we learn. We just know.

I wonder: do other languages have similar rules? Are they the same as ours or different?

And yes, I've found that I do arrange larger descriptions in basically this way. Starting with the big picture, working my way toward the details.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Probably a case of overthinking, LOL.

...but i like overthinking things. :'(

On a more serious note. The interest isn't so much in the rule itself, but in understanding how the brain processes information.

Supposedly, the language we use influences our way of thinking and how we relate to the world. The ordering of adjectives may be a good example of this - perhaps a bit too convenient/obvious.

Then again it may be the other way around as you say:

I would say this is a rule based on a convention in language, rather than the opposite.

The perception of the world has influenced the language.

 

[Devor]

Yeah, there was a meme going around facebook about that recently. I figure if we've internalized the order, that's good enough for me.

But I keep staring at the list wondering where Teenage, Mutant, Ninja, and Turtles fit into these categories.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Yeah, there was a meme going around facebook about that recently. I figure if we've internalized the order, that's good enough for me.

But I keep staring at the list wondering where Teenage, Mutant, Ninja, and Turtles fit into these categories.

Teenage - Age
Mutant - Shape
Ninja - Material
Turtle - Smeerp

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Teenage - Age
Mutant - Shape
Ninja - Material
Turtle - Smeerp

Ninja is a material? O_O

 

[Svrtnsse]

Ninja is a material? O_O

Didn't you play Final Fantasy VII?

No wait, that's Materia, without the L. Can't have that.

Okay, serious now... I figured Ninja would be material in this case. It's what fits best out of the three that remains (if we're sticking with the list).

Color doesn't work at all. I'm not even sure it would have worked if the turtles were black.
Origin might work but it's a bit awkward. It'd imply they come from the ninja tradition, which is sort of technically true, but still awkward.

Material works though - if you see it as an "internal characteristic" that describes something you can't necessarily see at a glance.
Now they're all dressed like ninjas so you kind of see it anyway, but let's say they're all dressed in suits and carrying briefcases.

Now we can't tell if they're Teenage Mutant Solicitor Turtles, or Teenage Mutant Investment Banker Turtles.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Didn't you play Final Fantasy VII?

No wait, that's Materia, without the L. Can't have that.

Okay, serious now... I figured Ninja would be material in this case. It's what fits best out of the three that remains (if we're sticking with the list).

Color doesn't work at all. I'm not even sure it would have worked if the turtles were black.
Origin might work but it's a bit awkward. It'd imply they come from the ninja tradition, which is sort of technically true, but still awkward.

Material works though - if you see it as an "internal characteristic" that describes something you can't necessarily see at a glance.
Now they're all dressed like ninjas so you kind of see it anyway, but let's say they're all dressed in suits and carrying briefcases.

Now we can't tell if they're Teenage Mutant Solicitor Turtles, or Teenage Mutant Investment Banker Turtles.

They are made of ninja. I see...

If they were Teenage Mutant Investment Banker Turtles I doubt the concept would have taken off.

 

[Chessie]

Svrt, your English is perfect and your writing doesn't lack description. Don't let these sorts of articles take the art/fun out of writing. How we describe things and put sentences together all fits into the individual concept of voice.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Don't let these sorts of articles take the art/fun out of writing.

But I'm not.
I really enjoy this kind of thing. Trying to figure out the reasoning behind these things as well as how we perceive the world, both in person and in writing, is something that really fascinates me.

 

[skip.knox]

I would buy the argument about how the brain works *only* if the hierarchy holds in other languages. I'm about 90% certain it does not for Latin or for French. And probably not German either, a language which has no problem at all piling up adjectives.

 

[Heliotrope]

Yeah, I'm not so sure it's how the brain works either. I'm teaching third grade right now and my students that don't read a lot will throw "describing words" in willy nilly with no thought to order. They would say the 'scaly blue huge dinosaur'. My son is five and he talks like that still.

However, my students who learned to read quickly, or who are from educated families who read to them since birth seem to naturally do it 'in order'. So I think it is learned, naturally, through listening to mature speech patterns.

Why it 'sounds' better though is beyond me...

 

[cydare]

I was actually learning about adjective order in class! Here are two papers the professor linked us to. Though they don't offer anything conclusive, they were pretty interesting to go through!