Size & Pacing advice?

[Epaminondas]

Hey guys, I'm running into... not necessarily a problem but something I'm concerned about. I thought I might seek advice on it.

So I write by scene as a general rule so that I can skip around in the story as I see fit. My WIP is my big project that has been stewing in the back of my mind for several years so I have a pretty good idea of where I want to go with the thing and probably around 1/4 of the scenes written (mostly early and not edited or cleaned up).

So here's the thing... Like I said this is my big project and the story revolves around a large scale war that encompasses most of the continent. Being large I knew I needed several POV's. I have tried to limit myself to four; one in each major region involved. Two upper class POVs and two "commoners". To keep readers from losing interest in one by the time I make it back to them I generally try to keep to a pattern of
1,2,3,4; 1,3,4,2; 2,3,4,1; etc... and vary the arrangement to keep the tension where I need it .

Now two of these POVs essentially represent a protag and an antag but the other two are away from the fighting early on and have individual storylines that only come into the main war about 1/2 way through. I don't see any way to do these two POVs without at least a couple of others as antagonists for them.

So... in short having a pretty firm outline/first draft of the first 1/3 of the story and I'm up to 30 chapter length POV changes! My POV/Chapter lengths are anywhere from 5000 word avg with one 7500 (will be twice that by the time it's done) battle scene to end the first act.

I don't know how to put into words the exact question I'm trying to ask other than does this length, layout, pacing... whatever seem outrageous to anyone? Am I on the right track or is this monster getting away from me?
I've tried writing each of these stories individually (thats why I know where I want to go with most of them) but none of them felt complete without the other parts of the story so I'd hate to break them up but I don't know. Advice?

 

[Caged Maiden]

Okay, I'll only talk about my personal experiences, because I don't want to bash a writing rule book around, since I don't believe in that sort of thing anyways. I wrote a novel in a series (book 8) and got to a point where my main characters split into two groups, each with their own goals. I realized it was quite far off the conclusion of the novel and I was already hovering around 125k words...with only half the story written. Since I know how hard it is to get published with longer works anyways, I decided to split the book into two. Now...I still call them book 8, because until I have them written and begin editing, there's no point in my splitting anything, but they lie on my computer as separate files each with their own title and one even designated book 9. I think the first step is writing the book the way you want to see it written, and then (after the whole thing is in first draft and completed) begin an editing process that cuts the wheat from the chaff. Take a machete, a chainsaw, whatever weapon of destruction you need to cut out everything that doesn't support the story.

After a good round of cutting, see what you have left and whether it is one book or two (or whatever). Regarding pacing and chapter length, I think I hover around 3500 word chapters very intentionally. That's not to say some don't encroach on the 5k word mark, but it's rare, not the norm for me. I do that because that's the length of chapter I'm comfortable reading in a sitting and prevents scenes or turns in the spotlight dragging on. My concern is that if you have 5k-7k word chapters, you probably have a ton you could cut, because that's a lot of material without taking a break. One pitfall of having a structure for rotating POV characters is that sometimes nothing interesting is happening for one of them but a writer may feel obligated to write a chapter for him anyways. I have been guilty of that and I think it almost always leads to pacing issues. Make sure that in your rotation, something important is happening to the characters and cut to the chase, resisting the urge to fill in with history, lectures for the readers' benefit, or other forms of writerly stalling.

Those are my suggestions. If you want to cut, to make your manuscript sort of fit the current industry mold a touch more, you could find people who would trade and help you to weed out what isn't supporting the story. For all I know, all those words are powerful and moving, but if that's the case, you might want to consider other ways to break up the chapters into smaller ones. Again...write it first. This isn't even something worth worrying about until the draft is finished. In fact, we all do it. I've written 10k word chapters and only in editing have gone back to break them up, because I was on a roll and didn't know when I began, where I was going to logically break the chapters. It's fine to do that. Get your MCs active, compelling and engaged in events that will captivate and entertain a reader...worry about chapter length later, after you edit out the things that won't make it past first draft.

Best wishes.

 

[Epaminondas]

I appreciate it! You touched on several things that I keep tripping over (scenes that feel like they're there just because I know I need one in that spot). I've been working on that very thing the last couple of days, combining some scenes and taking important elements from one and putting it elsewhere and getting rid of the extra.

On chapter length I think you're right that editing will handle in the end. Your "cut to the chase" advice makes me think that I am entering my scenes to early in the events. Example: if I have a character travelling to a town to meet with someone or do something I tend to show actually arriving in the town, describe the setting, get into the characters head at that time before introducing the action of a scene. A bad example maybe but I think that may be part of my problem at times.

Mind if I ask how you handle that sort of thing?

 

[Russ]

I am with the "get to the point" philosophy.

Anything that is not entertaining and drive the plot directly or character development can be done "off screen" and summarized. Steve James book on Story over structure covers this brilliantly. I would commend it to you.

I love battle scenes and a 15k word battle scene even startles me. The project is sounding rather large. I have not done the math but it sounds like several books.

Love the balance between noble and common POVs.

Pleased with myself for not making dirty jokes about the thread title.

I also don't think there is a need to rotate POV's for any kind of balance or anything of that nature. Determine what needs to happen next to drive the plot, determine which character has the most to loose that is there, and voila you have your POV character.

 

[Epaminondas]

Lol! I must be slipping, I didn't put enough thought into the title.

Yeah, I think y'all might be right. I've never really thought about how much time I spend leading in to a scene. If I minimize that and took the info that I wanted to get across and used it to break up thick dialogue blocks or just sprinkled it in more throughout while the action's moving in front of it it would both cut out some length and make my scenes flow better. Hmm

Russ, I appreciate the book recommendation. I'll try to find a way to get a look at it.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Sure thing...

If I had a character arrive to somewhere, I'd skip over the arrival if it isn't interesting (and by interesting, I mean pertinent to the plot). Imagine how much more engaging the scene is if the chapter opens with the MC remarking to his friend that Lord such and such didn't even offer them a drink before getting right down to business, or how when the never before seen Lord Whatever enters, he's not the kind of guy he'd expected to be meeting with? Maybe he's got a nasty reputation, but in reality, he's a soft-spoken old man, or his voice is (as I used in one scene) "too high for his age and occupation". Those little details will set the scene So much better than descriptions of the room and objects or even the road there. I mean, no one needs to know anything more than "They entered the harbor town past dark, lucky to get in before the guards closed the gate for the night to keep out the rabble. In the morning they'd meed Lord Whatever and see what the vicious bastard had to offer in way of support...and what it would cost." Close a chapter there and open the next chapter with the guy actually walking into the room. forget the middle where they eat dinner, have a bath, lay out their finest clothes, flirt with bar maids, have one too many pints, and fall asleep in fitful dreams, only to make their way through over-descriptions that don't matter and view unimportant townsfolk along their daily lives. That stuff works well once in a while, but I learned a couple years ago to cut that shit without mercy because my critters complained it was dull. And...it is dull. The action is deeper within the characters and that's what folks want to read about. Now, to set the scene, maybe you want to show them enter the lord's manor. I do that on occasion. If that's the case (for scene-setting or foreboding or whatever) you want to show the details that mater most. Lord Whatever has portraits of himself lining the walls. Or, he has a lavishly furnished mansion when his villagers are starving. Be sure that every detail serves a purpose and that purpose cannot simply be painting an over-embellished picture for readers. Pick one or two that really stick out and devote a couple sentences to each if you like, but keep description pertinent and to a couple paragraphs. If you can cut it (because his manor is unimportant and nothing stands out to the character) then just go for the moment the character has a strong POV thought and then start from there.

I've talked about my Cedrick scene multiple times on this site so maybe a search will turn it up, but basically OH...I wrote about it again here: http://mythicscribes.com/forums/wri...trucks-vehicles-scenes.html?highlight=Cedrick and the link to the original post is in that post, too, so you get a double whammy of advice from me about creating compelling scenes.

I also mention it again here: http://mythicscribes.com/forums/writing-questions/14456-make-scene-jordan-e-rosenfeld.html

You know, that's a lot of talking I've done about a scene that's in an unfinished manuscript...anyways, scenes are best when tailored to specific goals. Cut all the filler. That's my two cents. Cut that shit like it's a zombie horde and you have two chainsaw hands and an endless supply of fuel. It'll save your story, because the story is the action, the dialogue, the contemplation, and the inner thoughts about the things your MC feels important.

hope that helps. I have many more examples if you need more. I've battled this same thing for years and am just (in year four of learning ONLY how to edit) getting a solid handle on how to create compelling scenes without filler.

 

[Epaminondas]

I may have overstated how much I did this because I don't want to make it sound like I do it all the time but looking back now I can really see some spots where it's obvious there's really nothing going on except what I would call baseline info.
I wonder if the way I skip around in writing might contribute to the problem in that when I start writing a new scene; I may be trying too hard to set the tone of where the characters are in their mind instead of letting where I left off with them in the previous POV section carry through.
Excellent, thanks again guys that gives me a lot to think about (and some rewriting to do). The fresh perspective helps a lot