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Some Questions About Archetypes

Discussion in 'Research' started by Jdailey1991, Sep 19, 2021.

  1. Jdailey1991

    Jdailey1991 Sage

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    So here is what I've gathered about archetypes based on both the YouTuber "Silver Quill" and the Art of Manliness website.


    ARCHETYPE: Crone
    PASSIVE SHADOW: Hag
    AGGRESSIVE SHADOW: Witch

    ARCHETYPE: Amazon
    PASSIVE SHADOW: Victim
    AGGRESSIVE SHADOW: Castrator

    ARCHETYPE: Hetaira (Although "Companion" would be a more appropriate alternative)
    PASSIVE SHADOW: The video linked in the archetype's title never mentioned the name of either shadow, though from what I gathered, it's someone who indulges the man at her own expense.
    AGGRESSIVE SHADOW: Someone who views the man as a means to an end.

    ARCHETYPE: Queen
    PASSIVE SHADOW: Saboteur
    AGGRESSIVE SHADOW: Martyr

    ARCHETYPE: Warrior
    PASSIVE SHADOW: Masochist
    AGGRESSIVE SHADOW: Sadist

    ARCHETYPE: Hero (Not linked because it was in the same video as "Warrior")
    PASSIVE SHADOW: Coward
    AGGRESSIVE SHADOW: Grandstander Bully

    ARCHETYPE: Lover
    PASSIVE SHADOW: Impotent Lover
    AGGRESSIVE SHADOW: Addicted Lover

    ARCHETYPE: Fool
    PASSIVE SHADOW: Addict
    AGGRESSIVE SHADOW: Trickster

    ARCHETYPE: Divine Child
    PASSIVE SHADOW: Weakling Prince
    AGGRESSIVE SHADOW: High Seat Tyrant

    ARCHETYPE: Precocious Child (Not linked because both he and the Divine Child are in the article "The Boyhood Archetypes (Part I)"
    PASSIVE SHADOW: Dummy
    AGGRESSIVE SHADOW: Know-It-All Trickster

    ARCHETYPE: Oedipal Child (It's not as disturbing as the name implies)
    PASSIVE SHADOW: Dreamer
    AGGRESSIVE SHADOW: Mama's Boy

    ARCHETYPE: Magician
    PASSIVE SHADOW: Denying Innocent
    AGGRESSIVE SHADOW: Detached Manipulator

    ARCHETYPE: King
    PASSIVE SHADOW: Weakling
    AGGRESSIVE SHADOW: Tyrant


    The list may have looked long, but this is not really everything. Google has not been helpful in giving me a singular, comprehensive description of the other archetypes. For example, the one member of the Feminine Quaternary that has not been mentioned is the "Medial". What defines the Medial? And what are her Passive and Aggressive shadows? Does the Feminine Quaternary have their own childhood archetypes, as the Masculine Quaternary has? And what of the other archetypes?

    • Ruler
    • Creator/Artist
    • Sage
    • Innocent
    • Explorer
    • Rebel
    • Everyman
    • Caregiver

    What are THEIR defining characteristics and their shadows?
     
  2. Chasejxyz

    Chasejxyz Inkling

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    I have no idea what you're talking about or what any of this is supposed to mean. Is this some weird MRA stuff? Like the new alpha/beta/omega/sigma male thing? Like this whole "Feminine Quaternary" thing sounds like something a caveman would come up with and not any serious person studying media.

    There are a ton of archetypes in storytelling. I mean, just look at TV tropes. No one YouTuber or site owns these concepts, nor can there ever be an exhaustive list, as everyone is going to have different opinions if a character is a rival or an anti-hero or a villain or what. If you really want to learn about archetypes, read TV tropes.
     
    Rosemary Tea and FifthView like this.
  3. Jdailey1991

    Jdailey1991 Sage

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    You haven't clicked on any of my links, have you?
     
  4. Chasejxyz

    Chasejxyz Inkling

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    I don't have the time nor the interest to watch a bunch of videos or read a bunch of articles, nor do I think anyone else is going to. "Archetype" is a very broad concept and you're presenting it as if there's only this one interpretation, so you're really limiting who's going to respond to you or give you anything helpful. What is a "shadow" or "quaternary" isn't very obvious, either.

    I'll happily take the time (like an hour+) to read someone's writing sample to give them helpful feedback to help them grow as a writer and strengthen what they have. I'm not going to spend an hour reading/watching stuff so I can respond to this incredibly narrow topic that has little relevance to actual writing.
     
  5. Jdailey1991

    Jdailey1991 Sage

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    Are any of them Jungian?
     
  6. Rosemary Tea

    Rosemary Tea Inkling

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    Jdailey1991Jdailey1991 how is this relevant to what you're writing?

    This research board is for researching things we want to use in our wip's. You haven't said if or how this particular concept of archetypes is relevant to any wip of yours.

    It's not a universal concept, either. It sounds like the owners of those sites/channels just made it up. Jung talked about archetypes, but he never said they have shadows, let alone passive and aggressive shadows. His concept of shadow is something entirely different.

    Archetypes are, by definition, not specific. Any archetype people might name is a keyword, not the be all and end all. The hero and the villain are archetypes. The damsel in distress is an archetype. The strong heroine is an archetype. But each archetype has many examples. Boiling it down the way you have is like saying every hero has to be Batman and every villain has to be the Joker.
     
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  7. Jdailey1991

    Jdailey1991 Sage

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    They most certainly did not.
     
  8. Rosemary Tea

    Rosemary Tea Inkling

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    So what were their sources, then?

    If you're asking others to do research for you, it's only fair that you do your share of the research first. Like ChasejxyzChasejxyz , I've never heard of any of this stuff either, and I've studied Jungian psychology. I give astrology consultations in which I use archetypes to make sense of the chart. But passive and aggressive shadows, masculine quaternary, feminine quaternary, that specific archetype list you gave broken down in that way, I've never come across.

    You also, still, have not given any indication that this is relevant to something you're writing. If it's not, it doesn't belong on this board. People who are using this board to research something for a wip typically start by describing the way the question fits with their wip. Since you didn't, it looks like just a random question.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
    J.W. Golan likes this.
  9. Chasejxyz

    Chasejxyz Inkling

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    Wow you certainly pwned Rosemary Tea, epic win! Awesome facts and logic! Everyone on Reddit is going to be so proud of you.
     
  10. Ned Marcus

    Ned Marcus Sage

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    I'm also interested in how you would use this list.

    Like Rosemary Tea and Chasejxyz, I'm also not clear on where some of this comes from (I mean beyond the website). I've studied Jungian psychology, too, and I read tarot, which uses many archetypal ideas. Actually, archetypes themselves are unconscious, or just coming into conscsiousness, and there's no way to list them. I think Jung would refer to the above list as archetypal ideas; things that were once archetypes but have now entered human consciousness.

    I think there certainly can be value in using some of these ideas as some of them still resonate with people. If you're willing to share, I'd be interested to know how you would use them.
     
    Rosemary Tea likes this.
  11. Ankari

    Ankari Hero Breaker Moderator

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    Anyone who wants a decent explanation of archetypes and how they factor into writing, head over to Helping Writers Become Authors. She hosts a podcast that helps explain it as well. I found it informative.
     
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  12. pmmg

    pmmg Auror

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    I think the video is displays enough knowledge of its subject to be considered researched, and jung did delve into archtypes and their shadows. I am not sure they way jung saw archtypes is the same as the way the term is used by us fiction writers but all of this amounts to something else we could put in our tool bag and pull out when needed. I don't see the need for the hostility towards the op. If the question is what shadow archetypes might go along with the additional ones listed, i dont know. I suppose i could reason some out but Jung would not have. He focused only on 12 of them and how they might relate to an entirely different field of use. Personally, ive never really thought in terms of archtypes. I just write characters and they fit in as they do. From what i watched i would say i can see how this would be useful in story creation. If i recognize the archetype ive created i could find its compliments and discordant opposites by knowledge of a list such as this. Not much different than i may use a color wheel in painting
     
    Devor likes this.
  13. ThinkerX

    ThinkerX Myth Weaver

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    looks like a Tarot deck elaboration to me, given the various types and the passive/aggressive shadow bit. Parts of it resemble new age mysticism, though a driver there is reincarnation, forcing the 'archetype' to 'evolve' over time.

    I could see something like this forming the basis of a society, with the main characters having to either live up the their archetypes potential or deny them altogether.
     
  14. Rosemary Tea

    Rosemary Tea Inkling

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    Most of the archetypes on that list aren't in the tarot.

    In a story, you mean?
     
    Ned Marcus likes this.
  15. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    I'm not sure I understand what's even happening in this thread..... didn't everyone learn about storytelling archetypes in High School English?

    First, an archetype is not the same thing as a trope. Tropes get hyper-specific - Tasty Gold! - while an archetype gets broad, the Mother is an archetypical character, or the Tragedy is an archetype for a story. The idea is that everything you see can be distilled into a relatively small handful of archetypes.

    There is a ton of scholarship surrounding - and debating - this idea of the archetype, often focusing on myths and ancient literature. Many have tried to reframe lists like the one above, evolving from Jung's work. It is an idea people should be familiar with and very much a valid research question.

    Whether it's useful for the perspective of a writer - well, as this is a research thread, and not a writing discussion, it doesn't do well to imply that learning something isn't useful.
     
  16. ThinkerX

    ThinkerX Myth Weaver

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    should have been more clear. was thinking of the orientation of the tarot cards in connection with the list.

    yes
     
  17. Ned Marcus

    Ned Marcus Sage

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    No, I never studied this at school.

    I think that people are talking about very different things. There are different definitions of archetypes, but because the OP asked specifically about Jungian archetypes, some of us, myself included, answered from that perspective.


    I agree. But where was that implied?
     
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