Third gender pronouns

[OGone]

I've a story with a third gender. I wanted to use third gender pronouns but saying "ve said", "ve's driving his car" and "ve sipped vis coffee" sounds really, really corny and gimmicky. Anybody got any suggestions what I should do instead?

 

[Steerpike]

This can be a difficult issue. I've read a few stories that use these kinds of third-gender pronouns, and I have to admit I found them gimmicky and they always interrupted the flow of the story for me. I know others who felt the same way. That said, there are readers who find it perfectly natural. It seems like you only have three options:

1. Use the non-standard pronouns, and just accept the fact that it will put some readers off;
2. Use standard pronouns and come up with an in-world logic as to why; maybe society uses the pronoun that seems most appropriate based on the physical characteristics of the individual?; or
3. Don't use pronouns when referring to these characters. Might work if there are only brief appearances, otherwise I think this would be difficult to do and still have the story read well.

 

[wordwalker]

This one just doesn't have an easy answer; anything you do is going to slam straight into the he/she wall of the English language.

The extra grammar is pretty much the only way to write that third gender, and it will come out gimmicky, so the question is is the gender so important it's worth a story that gets into that-- and I'd really want to say write something else. But it seems like you want to do this.

Two thoughts then: it might go over easier if the Ve's aren't that common in the story, so the reader has to deal with them at particular places and then can relax a bit, point made for a time. Or, the story could be 1st-person (or a tight 3rd-limited) of someone who has trouble getting used to this grammar and is constantly struggling to call them he/she and correcting himself.

But mostly, it's always going to be awkward. Linguistic blind spots are just that bad.

 

[BWFoster78]

Not saying Steerpike's (1) can't be done, but I'm having a hard time thinking of a book I read where it has been done. I have, however, seen (2) done. It went something like: Character A said, "Character B is a whatever, but we just refer to him as 'he' for simplicity."

 

[Steerpike]

Greg Egan used "ve," and the like in Diaspora, which is a really cool science fiction book but not the easiest reading. Part of the reason it works in that book, I think, is that things are all so alien on some level that the use of a non-standard pronoun is just another oddity among many to start the book, and then you end up going with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(novel)

I've read a few others. I want to say Storm Constantine might have used some in her Wraethu books, but now I can't remember for sure.

 

[OGone]

The world's set in an alternate timeline. The UK has been overthrown by the third gender, their memory wiped and they live in an autonomous society with fortress like walls barring entrance, pretty much a second more exaggerated North Korea. Men and women ONLY exist underground as rebels (and outside the walls, which nobody ever crosses). The main character is one of the third genders and as such I'm using the pronouns straight off the bat.

I can refer to others as "it", "one" or just call them "he" (I'd say they resemble men more)? Or I can use made up pronouns (my idea is a human Z chromosome as a result of mutation so I'd use zy, zy's, zis... Unfortunately I don't think I can write the story avoiding pronouns altogether, having trouble making a decision.

 

[Steerpike]

"It" sounds too dehumanizing to my ear. If that's how viewpoint characters feel and you are in a tight POV, it might work. Otherwise, I think this would seem odd as well. Heh. How's that for help? No good answer.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

It?

I guess that would very much depend on how the third gender fits into society. If there are males, females, and asexual people who are neither male nor female, that could be an "it." If reproduction requires a threesome—not that I want to go there, but I mean if all three genders are of the same species and are required for the species to last more than one generation, then maybe you either need a "ve", or you can try to avoid pronouns, or… is that third gender a more feminine or masculine type? Then you could have he, she and she, for example.

Some languages just have on word for he, she and it. ("Kui" in Cantonese, which means Mandarin also has one word and Japanese might also.) I don't know if calling everyone "he" or everyone "she" would be better or worse than having a "ve."

I think the role a third gender plays in a species would determine the best grammar structure.



EDIT - Ninja'd, but I agree "it" could seem dehumanizing, so whether "it" fits depends on the third gender's place in society. If sexism exists, "it" could be the gender that suffers most while "she" is placed on a pedestal and "he" dominates.

(No, the fictional three-gender society doesn't have to be male-dominated, but I figure is sexism would rear its ugly head, that's the obvious path.)

 

[CupofJoe]

I have seen "x" uses; so "xe" - s/he, "xis" - his, "xir" - their etc. Even there I notice that it was "xis" and not "xer".

 

[OGone]

They're not male or female. They can't breed naturally and can't have sex. Every single one looks the same. Hairless, no skin pigmentation, slender build. They have advanced immune systems and intelligence. "Third gender" is attributed to a chromosomal condition, like downs syndrome.

I won't go into detail how they came about, long story short they live solely in the UK and have cut all contact with the outside world. The memories of the people were wiped 2 generations ago, men and women only exist as rebels and are hunted + exterminated on sight by genetically manufactured super soldiers.

So the third gender are basically humanity in their world - if that helps.

 

[Mindfire]

Give them a hive mentality and use plural pronouns.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

If its difficult for you to wrap your head around, why not make that difficulty part of he story? As Steerpike said earlier, they can be incorrectly referred to as "he or she" based on the viewpoints of gendered characters. This ignorance could be used to further, or help illustrate, the divide between conquerors and underground refugees.

I say embrace it, make the hard to translate aspects work for you.

 

[OGone]

If its difficult for you to wrap your head around, why not make that difficulty part of he story? As Steerpike said earlier, they can be incorrectly referred to as "he or she" based on the viewpoints of gendered characters. This ignorance could be used to further, or help illustrate, the divide between conquerors and underground refugees.

I say embrace it, make the hard to translate aspects work for you.

Only problem is with the two above posts is that the story follows one POV, its a first person narrative from one of the third gendered people. So there's nothing confusing from his/her/its/zys perspective.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Only problem is with the two above posts is that the story follows one POV, its a first person narrative from one of the third gendered people. So there's nothing confusing from his/her/its/zys perspective.

Maybe not but that POV can acknowledge that gendered people (like the reader) refer to them as a he, she, or it. That POV could speak with disdain about the label, find it hard to understand the ignorance, laugh it off as the ramblings of lesser minds, whatever....many options.

 

[Mindfire]

Only problem is with the two above posts is that the story follows one POV, its a first person narrative from one of the third gendered people. So there's nothing confusing from his/her/its/zys perspective.

As I said, plural pronouns. Solve this problem easily. Let them refer to themselves as "we".

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

It does help. (Replying to post #10)

This is the part where I admit I used to watch Star Trek. I wasn't a follower, but my friends were. Yes, I enjoyed watching the episodes—I'm not a closet fan who pretends to hate Star Trek to compensate for insecurities about his fandom. It's more like I'm saying, I watched it, but know very little about the show.

So… on an episode that probably aired in the mid-to-late 1990s (unless it was a rerun—but my friends didn't give away the ending and mostly talked during commercials, so I guess it wasn't), the USS Probably-the-Enterprise crew encountered an asexual race. They wore skin-tight primary-colored jumpsuits, which is the style in the entire universe a few centuries from now. They were portrayed by actresses with boyish haircuts and petite physiques.

While the show was able to properly capture my imagination—they're neither male nor female—I would have considered this type of slender humanoid to be a "she." Yeah, in real life, I knew they were women. But based on their build, it was natural for me to default to a gender pronoun. If they had a more masculine build, I would have defaulted to "he."

So if it flows better to not invent a pronoun, you could refer to an asexual as "she." The narrator could explain—once—that while the Thirdling (insert actual name there) is neither male nor female, people often refer to them as shes due to the one part of their bodies that is decidedly female: the neck—slender and lacking an Adam's apple.

You could just as easily go with "he," but…

Hairless, no skin pigmentation, slender build.

…"she" better fits this description.


Just my opinion, but… I read "ve" as a badly-faked German accent for "we." It threw me at first glance, and I never became comfortable with it even though I knew it was 3rd-person singular. But then, I've never been a reader who cared much for made up words.

My other thought is that if these asexual people were cut off from the rest of the world, the use of "she" wouldn't cause confusion among them.

 

[kayd_mon]

I would use one of the invented spellings such as xis, zis, etc.

However you do it, your description of your story has me interested. I'd like to read this.

 

[Ireth]

As an alternative to she as LS suggested, you could use se for the asexuals. ^^

 

[OGone]

Maybe not but that POV can acknowledge that gendered people (like the reader) refer to them as a he, she, or it. That POV could speak with disdain about the label, find it hard to understand the ignorance, laugh it off as the ramblings of lesser minds, whatever....many options.

I think I will go with this but I still need to call them *something*. I'll have gendered people refer to them with a third group of pronouns but the narrator using something more standard for the simplicity of the reader...

As I said, plural pronouns. Solve this problem easily. Let them refer to themselves as "we".

... and I think this is a really good idea actually. I'd have to think of some kind of explanation though. Refer to each being as being a member of the race as a whole, so if I'm not using their name just call them "they", "their", could it still get confusing though?

It does help. (Replying to post #10)

This is the part where I admit I used to watch Star Trek. I wasn't a follower, but my friends were. Yes, I enjoyed watching the episodes–I'm not a closet fan who pretends to hate Star Trek to compensate for insecurities about his fandom. It's more like I'm saying, I watched it, but know very little about the show.

So… on an episode that probably aired in the mid-to-late 1990s (unless it was a rerun–but my friends didn't give away the ending and mostly talked during commercials, so I guess it wasn't), the USS Probably-the-Enterprise crew encountered an asexual race. They wore skin-tight primary-colored jumpsuits, which is the style in the entire universe a few centuries from now. They were portrayed by actresses with boyish haircuts and petite physiques.

While the show was able to properly capture my imagination–they're neither male nor female–I would have considered this type of slender humanoid to be a "she." Yeah, in real life, I knew they were women. But based on their build, it was natural for me to default to a gender pronoun. If they had a more masculine build, I would have defaulted to "he."

So if it flows better to not invent a pronoun, you could refer to an asexual as "she." The narrator could explain–once–that while the Thirdling (insert actual name there) is neither male nor female, people often refer to them as shes due to the one part of their bodies that is decidedly female: the neck–slender and lacking an Adam's apple.

You could just as easily go with "he," but…

…"she" better fits this description.


Just my opinion, but… I read "ve" as a badly-faked German accent for "we." It threw me at first glance, and I never became comfortable with it even though I knew it was 3rd-person singular. But then, I've never been a reader who cared much for made up words.

My other thought is that if these asexual people were cut off from the rest of the world, the use of "she" wouldn't cause confusion among them.

Thanks for this was pretty informative, I've never watched Star Trek. The only problem I have with that is if referring to them as she people will instantly have a feminine image in their heads while I kind of want them to seem more male. I think when I mean slender I was envisioning more slender, tall man? Their physiology is no nipples or appendix yada yada basically the perfect human.

The third gender's normality though is their being no male or female. So having them call them he/she because they resemble females/males more is wrong because the vast majority of the population don't even know about them even being the third gender.

I would use one of the invented spellings such as xis, zis, etc.

However you do it, your description of your story has me interested. I'd like to read this.

Hey, thanks. Posts like this are motivating

 

[Mindfire]

Again, as I said, justify the plural pronouns through some kind of psychic link.