Treskri - help needed

[Zireael]

Treskri is heavily inspired by Greek, Roman and Celtic mythology.
Other inspirations include: Drowtales, Crusader Kings 1 & 2,

***


The world is a vast underground of a planet. There is no known way to reach the surface and the inhabitants aren't aware of the fact that it is underground. Therefore, they measure 'depth' as the distance from the planet's core - that is, the Lower World is the furthest from the core and the coldest, while the Higher World is the closest to the core and the hottest.

I have not yet decided if gravity works towards the core or away from it, though.

Because the planet's core fluctuates and flashes, they can measure time without using magic. Their year has 12 months and every month has 4 weeks 8 days each.

The world itself, beyond the cities inhabited by elves and other races (that is, dwarves and short folk), is very dangerous. Death is very common; however, the deities often grant resurrection or rather, reincarnation.

There are, so far, three known cities in the world.

Magic is pretty rare in the world, with clerical magic present a little more than arcane magic. Arcane magic uses crystals as foci, but both types of magic require that the caster be in the deity's favor.

The deities have much influence over the world - they have their servants and offspring and heroes. There is a creator deity, 8 greater deities - that is why 8 is the holy number - and some lesser deities. Heroes might also eventually become deities.

Most noble houses trace their descent from one of the deities, which is their patron, and they assume the deity's colors as their own. The colors and the coats of arms are some of the most important things in the world.

There are 9 noble houses so far (I have yet detailed only 4). Been thinking of adding a 10th. I need to know what the starting population for each one can be for them to survive. Note that there is no incest taboo in this world. Descent is traced matrilinearly, but aside from that, there is near complete equality between sexes. By tradition, the ruler of a noble house is always a woman and she can keep a harem. All her children are considered legitimate, although the father's position may affect the child's.

The First and the Second Era are purely legendary times; timekeeping starts in the Third Era, approximately 800 years ago.


***

I think this suffices for the most important information. I will, of course, write more here, should someone ask for it. However, I am now focused not only on developing the world (in Polish, since it's my mother tongue), but also on writing a story set in it (also in Polish).

That is why I am not willing to translate everything I have noted down over the course of the last year - the fact that I am starting another year at uni notwithstanding.

OOC: The reason the world is set underground is because I wanted 3-dimensional movement and changing gravity. Some of my friends made me drop the idea, saying it is unmanageable.

***
I imagine the world as a cross of ASOIAF and heroic mythos - that is, there is politics between the heads of the clans and interclan politics, but most characters gain prestige and social status by heroic (or antiheroic) deeds the patron deity demands.

The world involves playing with conventions - i.e., it is set underground, and underground isn't as dark as people imagine it to be. Elves do not live in forests. Humans are set in the role of Others, orcs - i.e. a vague evil threatening the status quo.

In my writing, I focus on the elves. Dwarves, short folk and the outsiders are the background.

Also, currently I use Gaelic for names (surnames are often meaningful). Alas, the list of known Gaelic names is rather short and I've had a reader or two complain that character names sound like taken from/compiled using a list. Therefore, I've been thinking of using Latin instead of Gaelic, including the praenomen - nomen - cognomen convention... Which do you think is better?

I need help in working out the details of history, culture, religion and the like. Also, the starting population is bugging me quite a bit.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hello Zireael, welcome to Mythic Scribes!!

Your world sounds very interesting, I bet that you will get loads of feedback in this thread.

I have removed the link to your blog, sorry. You can have links as part of your Signature, and if you want to self-promote your story then you are welcome to start a thread at the Self-promotion forum.

I hope to see you in the Mythic Chat soon =)

 

[shangrila]

It definitely sounds unique. To answer your question, I'd rather Gaelic. Latin is a little overused in my opinion.

The main thing I didn't get was how light works. I know that you said it's "not as dark as people imagine", but what exactly does that mean? Is there an artificial sun, or is it like when your eyes adjust? Do they even have eyes? Do they use fire? What do they use for fuel if they do?

I think your friends might be partially right. There's a ton of work that would be needed for the reader to really feel like it's a legitimate world. That's not to say it can't be done or you shouldn't try it though.

 

[Zireael]

I think your friends might be partially right. There's a ton of work that would be needed for the reader to really feel like it's a legitimate world. That's not to say it can't be done or you shouldn't try it though.

I've had a reader of my story say that it's a remarkably consistent world so far, but I still think there is a lot of stuff to be done. Therefore, I kept looking for worldbuilding forums, since there's only so much you can do by yourself.

The main thing I didn't get was how light works. I know that you said it's "not as dark as people imagine", but what exactly does that mean? Is there an artificial sun, or is it like when your eyes adjust? Do they even have eyes? Do they use fire? What do they use for fuel if they do?

There are magic light sources used in the cities, called dragon light. (The legend goes that in the First Age, the first leader of the elves defeated a powerful dragon, and from his fire the mages created the first dragon light).
In other areas, it's 'like when your eyes adjust'. Yes, all the inhabitants of the world have eyes (save for perhaps some underwater or living-in-the-rock animals).
Due to the existence of dragon light, fire isn't exactly needed. Well, I'm considering it being used for warmth, but it might be dangerous in smaller corridors, tunnels or caverns (fumes thickening, asphyxiation and other unpleasant stuff).

***

Oh, I mentioned animals. This is another thing I have problems with. Some of my Polish friends recommended several animals, there were only a handful of them, and I originally wanted to go with RL animals. Rats, spiders, snakes and the like would be fine, but they made me drop any flying carnivores (eagles) saying that they wouldn't have space. Even though I mentioned caverns several or even several hundred kilometres high.

The core of the world radiates heat, so there are different climates in different layers of the world.

 

[wordwalker]

Sounds like a dynamite idea. Caves are as epic as it gets, and you've got a great, solid concept for expanding it to a whole world.

So, a few worldbuilding specifics:

In other areas, it's 'like when your eyes adjust'. Yes, all the inhabitants of the world have eyes (save for perhaps some underwater or living-in-the-rock animals).

Due to the existence of dragon light, fire isn't exactly needed. Well, I'm considering it being used for warmth, but it might be dangerous in smaller corridors, tunnels or caverns (fumes thickening, asphyxiation and other unpleasant stuff).

But what would your eyes adjust to? The most startling thing about being in a cave is that if you click the light off, you start to realize it isn't just clouded-up night you'll need a few more minutes to adjust to, you've actually discovered true darkness as bad as being blind. Life forms still need some source of light. The usual answer is phosphorescent fungi, though you'd have to make them poisonous to make them so widespread that every creature evolved with eyes. Or it could be threads of magical minerals in the rocks.

I think you really want a sense of which terrains are "city lit," which are faintly "hunter lit" and which are pitch black-- until someone (or some Thing?) with a light source walks in. There are just too many factors that might get involved, and capturing the difference between them (and the odd sonar- or scent-hunting beast or true Darkvision Magic) is way more fun to embrace than to argue away. The underground IS degrees of fighting in the dark.

As for fire, you're quite right, it could be dangerous. But it's also vital, first to cook food (a huge early boost in civilization was getting at the extra calories in cooked food; it's been called a second stomach) and then to forge metals and other craftswork. A part of your world's flavor might be what mix of magical or chemical/herbal processes they use to do this without fire or to neutralize its smoke, and how much you just don't cook or forge in the smaller caves. (Maybe dwarves are the best smiths because they've got smokeless fire-- no wait, I heard that in the Dragon Age game...)

Then again asphyxiation can be only so likely because an ecosystem like this still needs a lot of airmaking plants (or fungi, or whatever). You might have half of your world's surfaces be covered in moss-- or if you like most of your rock to still look like rock, have immense plants in certain caverns that waft fresh air to the rest of the world.

...they made me drop any flying carnivores (eagles) saying that they wouldn't have space. Even though I mentioned caverns several or even several hundred kilometres high.

Sounds like you do have space, if the caverns are also hundreds wide. It's just a matter of having enough space of vegetation to support a basic herbavore, and multiplying that for each step up the food chain; each eagle needs a lot of space.

This is one fascinating subject, different ways you might balance making your world do some of the things ours does versus when caverns just ought to be different, and when magic and such might rewrite it. Yum!

 

[Saigonnus]

There are magic light sources used in the cities, called dragon light. (The legend goes that in the First Age, the first leader of the elves defeated a powerful dragon, and from his fire the mages created the first dragon light).
In other areas, it's 'like when your eyes adjust'. Yes, all the inhabitants of the world have eyes (save for perhaps some underwater or living-in-the-rock animals).
Due to the existence of dragon light, fire isn't exactly needed. Well, I'm considering it being used for warmth, but it might be dangerous in smaller corridors, tunnels or caverns (fumes thickening, asphyxiation and other unpleasant stuff).

Maybe dragon blood would be a more practical option... instead of an open flame. Imagine a substance that simply shines with light and radiates heat but without the side effects of smoke or using up all the oxygen (which it would in confined spaces) Maybe veins of the stuff can be mined for use in the cities and is common enough that it's pretty much everywhere, and different colors depending on the depth of the ground.

Another option that is viable is the equivalent to Faerie Fire, which burns no fuel and if the enchanter is talented enough it can last forever on whatever is enchanted. Perhaps in the main thoroughfares they enchant the stalactites to glow and provide illumination to the surroundings... or some device (like a crystal) that can be adhered to the rock walls (which likely have been carved smooth over the centuries.

 

[Zireael]

A part of your world's flavor might be what mix of magical or chemical/herbal processes they use to do this without fire or to neutralize its smoke, and how much you just don't cook or forge in the smaller caves.

Good idea.

Then again asphyxiation can be only so likely because an ecosystem like this still needs a lot of airmaking plants (or fungi, or whatever). You might have half of your world's surfaces be covered in moss-- or if you like most of your rock to still look like rock, have immense plants in certain caverns that waft fresh air to the rest of the world.

The idea is there will be lots of plants in certain caverns, so making them airmaking isn't hard, thanks.

Maybe dragon blood would be a more practical option... instead of an open flame. Imagine a substance that simply shines with light and radiates heat but without the side effects of smoke or using up all the oxygen (which it would in confined spaces) Maybe veins of the stuff can be mined for use in the cities and is common enough that it's pretty much everywhere, and different colors depending on the depth of the ground.

Another option that is viable is the equivalent to Faerie Fire, which burns no fuel and if the enchanter is talented enough it can last forever on whatever is enchanted. Perhaps in the main thoroughfares they enchant the stalactites to glow and provide illumination to the surroundings... or some device (like a crystal) that can be adhered to the rock walls (which likely have been carved smooth over the centuries.

Dragon light was thought up as an equivalent to faerie fire, but not eternal - Treskri is a low-magic world compared to the standard D&D. The most common magic is divine magic, mostly healing. Resurrections sometimes happen. Mages are rare and their magic is not very powerful.

Dragon blood, on the other hand, is an excellent idea. So far, I have only covered RL metals and some minerals (elves use crystals, which they get from the dwarves or mine themselves) to focus arcane magic.

 

[shangrila]

I've had a reader of my story say that it's a remarkably consistent world so far, but I still think there is a lot of stuff to be done. Therefore, I kept looking for worldbuilding forums, since there's only so much you can do by yourself.

All good then. Consistency is a key.

There are magic light sources used in the cities, called dragon light. (The legend goes that in the First Age, the first leader of the elves defeated a powerful dragon, and from his fire the mages created the first dragon light).

What did the elves use for light before this then?

wordwalker beat me to the rest, so I won't repeat that argument.

Oh, I mentioned animals. This is another thing I have problems with. Some of my Polish friends recommended several animals, there were only a handful of them, and I originally wanted to go with RL animals. Rats, spiders, snakes and the like would be fine, but they made me drop any flying carnivores (eagles) saying that they wouldn't have space. Even though I mentioned caverns several or even several hundred kilometres high.

It could work. I can see where they're coming from though; creatures that rely purely on flight to move wouldn't naturally fit in an underground environment.

 

[Zireael]

What did the elves use for light before this then?

The idea is that the underground is roughly as light as a cloudy afternoon RL, so I didn't think much of light before it. Besides, First & Second Age are pretty much legendary times, and the dragon defeat occurs well in the First Age.

 

[DTowne]

Two things I would consider:


1) Bioluminescencent animals and Chemiluminescencent lighting. I had researched a bit on these two while writing a story, very promising.

2) I saw you wanted flying animals, have you considered using gliding animals, such as the flying squirrel?

 

[Zireael]

1) Bioluminescencent animals and Chemiluminescencent lighting. I had researched a bit on these two while writing a story, very promising.

2) I saw you wanted flying animals, have you considered using gliding animals, such as the flying squirrel?

1) Bioluminescent stuff (animals and plants both) is something I have long considered.
2) Well I haven't. But these look like good fits.

 

[Zireael]

I was thinking about animals again - which animals might the elves keep as household pets? I imagine snakes, spiders and cats might fit the role...

Also, do you think stoats could live in the world?

 

[DTowne]

I can see stoats working they do live in burrows, though they don't make their own. The fact that males are very territorial with each other could add an interesting depth to the story. As for your snakes and spiders I see no reason they wouldn't work they are crearures of darkness and underground too.

I myself always pictured Elves keeping tortoises (which wouldn't work in this case) or Koi fish (200 hundred years in some cases) because they, like elves, live so long. You did say colors and coat of arms were very important right? If so I think the Koi idea would play nicely.

Also check out the cryptovolans, also known as the microraptor. It was a really cool four winged gliding lizard. Now extinct. If I remember right it was the size of a chicken or small dog. Perfect size for a pet don't you think?

 

[Zireael]

Oh yeah, I saw microraptors in a TV documentary over the hols and they were really cool!

Anchiornis look really nice too. I am now trying to look up a list of small dinosaurs, alas, it only points me to the extremes (biggest and smallest, that sort of thing)

 

[DTowne]

I don't know about finding a list of small dinosaurs but I can point in the direction of one really cool one. Pegomastax.

I'll have to check out this Anchiornis later. Its not ringing a bell.

 

[Zireael]

Pegomastax looks really cool and could be a good fill in for the dogs.

I also thought that lizards of various kind could serve as mounts/beasts of burden.

 

[Gurkhal]

There's been alot of discussion about the various parts of the nature, flora and fauna of the setting but I thought that I would put some spotlight on the actual society and stuff that's being presented.

The world itself, beyond the cities inhabited by elves and other races (that is, dwarves and short folk), is very dangerous. Death is very common; however, the deities often grant resurrection or rather, reincarnation.

One little question. If ressurection and reincarnation is common, as I've understand from the text, then how can it be considered safe? I'm all in favor of having arbitary death hanging over the characters but to me any kind of safety net, like divine interfierence could make it less threatning to merely annoying. Since i have noted that you have mentioned ASOIAF as a source of inspiration further down I would probably make the gods' benign aid a bit more uncommon.

There are, so far, three known cities in the world.

Does this mean there are three BIG population centres in the world or there are three noteworthy population centres in all?

Magic is pretty rare in the world, with clerical magic present a little more than arcane magic. Arcane magic uses crystals as foci, but both types of magic require that the caster be in the deity's favor.

Ok, sounds good to me as I like magic-light settings better than those with much magic in them.

The deities have much influence over the world - they have their servants and offspring and heroes. There is a creator deity, 8 greater deities - that is why 8 is the holy number - and some lesser deities. Heroes might also eventually become deities.

Forgive me for asking, but wouldn't 9 make more sense as a sacred number then? Provided that the creator deity isn't just some distant god which takes no part in what creation is up to. Otherwise I'm totally down with the idea of having there being greater and lesser deities. The chance of ascension for humans is also something that I think it pretty cool.

Do you have some additional thought about how this pantheon is structured? Like what are the "themes" of the major gods etc.? I have noticed further down that you draw alot of things from the influence of these deities and thus it would probably be a good idea to have a clue about what they are all about before going on with the details of the rest of the world.

Most noble houses trace their descent from one of the deities, which is their patron, and they assume the deity's colors as their own. The colors and the coats of arms are some of the most important things in the world.

There are 9 noble houses so far (I have yet detailed only 4). Been thinking of adding a 10th. I need to know what the starting population for each one can be for them to survive. Note that there is no incest taboo in this world. Descent is traced matrilinearly, but aside from that, there is near complete equality between sexes. By tradition, the ruler of a noble house is always a woman and she can keep a harem. All her children are considered legitimate, although the father's position may affect the child's.

´

Only nine nobles houses seems pretty scarce to me, although of course I don't know how big the population is beneath them. One idea you could have is to have eight great houses that claim descent from the major deities and then have less prestigious houses underneath these who claim descent from the lesser deities. If you want the arrangement and hierarchy of the divine could thus mirror the one among mortals.

In regards to equality I think that you have kind of made some things that makes this society look unequal, at least to me as a Westerner, in that the highest political power is reserved for woman and that you trace descent by the mother. I don't think that you should skip any of these parts, but I would perhaps not type it out to say that it is "near complete equality between the sexes".

Another question is, which might draw some ire but I think that I should ask it anyway, how do they decide who the is noble child's father? Because if the lady has a harem there might be more than one person that could reasonably be the father.

The First and the Second Era are purely legendary times; timekeeping starts in the Third Era, approximately 800 years ago.

Alright, although 800 years is fairly little to be honest. That might of course be in the interest of the setting but the First and Second Ages would probably still be fairly recent in its legacy to the world.

I imagine the world as a cross of ASOIAF and heroic mythos - that is, there is politics between the heads of the clans and interclan politics, but most characters gain prestige and social status by heroic (or antiheroic) deeds the patron deity demands.

How do clans come into this? Are they are same as noble houses or are they a different social grouping?

 

[Rullenzar]

On the subject of animals I haven't seen anyone mention bats. For your flying animal needs. Because it's a world underground you should also think about how animals and everything look. I would expect they look far different then what we would imagine on the surface. Lots of evolution and adaptation to the surroundings. Saw someone mention Bioluminescent animals.

As an argument to your freinds suggesting you scrap flying animals. I believe you can make it work, it is after all your world and who is to say you don't have gigantic miles on end caves where dragons could exist or whatever. It would be a simple geographical calculation. Species exist in certain areas and in the case of your world it's a matter of they can't fit into other parts of your world because maybe the paths are too small and they are forced to live and stay in that geographical location.

 

[Zireael]

Does this mean there are three BIG population centres in the world or there are three noteworthy population centres in all?

Well, there are villages and outposts and such, but I haven't detailed them, so yes, I guess the word big should be there.

Provided that the creator deity isn't just some distant god which takes no part in what creation is up to.

The creator deity is pretty distant - the Elf Queen has her clerics, but no house is under her patronage.

Do you have some additional thought about how this pantheon is structured? Like what are the "themes" of the major gods etc.?

Well, the gods are as follows (deities in bold have a house under their patronage)
The top of the top:
Elf Queen - the creator god

8 major deities:
War Queen
Lord of Magic
Lord of Nature aka Lord of Trees
Noble Queen /there is a house which venerates both her and the Life-Giver; and is an offshoot of the house originally sworn to the Noble Queen/
Life-Giver /there is a house which venerates both her and the Noble Queen/
Lord of Death

Minor deities:
Outcast
Dark Lady (Dark Ruler? I'm not sure which one is a better translation)
Beastlord
Lady of the Light
Lord of the Dark

The Four (function as a single minor deity): -> the elemental deities
Red Prince
Blue Prince
Brown Prince
Silver Prince

I haven't yet decided on the divine patron of one of the other houses (Traidi Lan, which means full of tradition). The Noble Queen and the Life-Giver both have a single house + the Mian Lan (the undecided offshoot of the Uasal Lan) under their patronage, so I might be forced to:
a) make the Elf Queen their patron
b) invent a new deity
c) make some other deity their patron

Additionally, a good solution to the Mian Lan [full of desire] venerating two deities at once would be to invent a minor deity of sexuality...

One idea you could have is to have eight great houses that claim descent from the major deities and then have less prestigious houses underneath these who claim descent from the lesser deities. If you want the arrangement and hierarchy of the divine could thus mirror the one among mortals.

This is a great idea, but I think I should finish notes on the houses I have now before I start inventing more!

Another question is, which might draw some ire but I think that I should ask it anyway, how do they decide who the is noble child's father? Because if the lady has a harem there might be more than one person that could reasonably be the father.

Well, magic comes in handy for such occasions. How do you think the Life-Giver's clerics keep meticulously detailed genealogy records?

Alright, although 800 years is fairly little to be honest.

You're right - I picked 800 off the top of my head. On the other hand, it's long enough for a few generations to pass, while being short enough to allow for a long-lived elf to live [Iurnan Mian Lan, 450-900] and not allowing him to remember the Second Age.

How do clans come into this? Are they are same as noble houses or are they a different social grouping?

Clans = noble houses. I use the two terms interchangeably, especially in the story, to avoid repetition.

@ Rullenzar: Oh, yeah. Bats fit nicely.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

It sounds like a strange world, similar in some ways to Verne's Journey to the Centre of the Earth. But you did mention two things that as a science geek troubles me. (And yes I know it's fantasy). Both are centred on the fact that they've got tunnels and caverns all the way to the core of the world. That sort of presupposes a round world and some basic science.

First the core of Earth is a ball of spinning molten, highly metalic rock. Not the sort of place where you could have tunnels. But it is the sort of place which could give you the geothermal heat sources your civilization needs to keep going on. And second you mentioned gravity. Even if the world was solid all the way through and you could drill all the way down, gravity would still decrease as you got closer to the centre, and the centre you'd be weightless. I'd suggest shying away from the world reaching down all the way to the core. Verne could do it, but he was writing more than a hundred years ago.

Besides, if you do some basic calculations / guestimations, even if your tunnels went down only a few miles and didn't pierce the crust, you'd have an incredible amount of space to work with. Far more than we limited surface dwellers have.

Cheers, Greg.