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TW: Do I need to make this scene more intense?

dollyt8

Troubadour
It's also in the title, but I want to again highlight a trigger warning for sexual assault. Please do not read if you are likely to be affected by this or find it upsetting!

In my NaNoWriMo project, Ashbranded, I have a very important scene that I've gotten some feedback on. In the country featured in the book, characters without powers (derogatorily called ashdrains) aren't allowed to love or have physical relations with those who do have magical powers (the ashbranded). One of the characters who is descended from a long line of ashbranded is coming into her powers late. Because she's afraid she won't end up with powers and will become a second-rate citizen, she begins to unnaturally cling to anyone who she thinks will care about her, and one of those people is an ashdrain. She basically has a conversation with him in which she tries to get him to promise that he'll stay with her no matter what and she claims "I know you care for me," which he is horrified by and basically tells her she's just being emotional and he needs to get away from her. This becomes a major plot point later when she lies that he did express feelings for her and tried to trick her into falling for him.

Here's the problem I have. Originally, I was planning to write this scene as an assault. She was going to kiss him without his consent and later accuse him of phsyically assaulting her. However, I softened it because I didn't want to use sexual assault merely as a plot point considering how much this happens in real life, plus this character goes through some really awful stuff across the book and I didn't just want to keep piling it on. And it happens in the second chapter, which I feel could offput a lot of people really early in the book.

Unfortunately, when I posted this chapter of my story on a couple critique sites, people began to read romantic chemistry and "star-crossed lovers" into the relationship. I don't see the relationship between these characters as romantic; it's toxic at best and I tried to make it very clear he's extremely uncomfortable. But people seemed to think I was shoehorning in a romance that had barely been hinted at (again, it's not romantic; she's only clinging to him because she's scared for her future) or that it was fun romantic tension as opposed to disturbing. Other people seemed to feel he was just overreacting, since all she said was basically "I think you care for me." And it also seems like it would be hard to make laws that forbid ashdrains just liking ashbranded, as opposed to outlawing actual physical relations between the two. I think it works because ashdrains are so despised that most ashbranded wouldn't mind killing them just on suspicion, but I'm not sure.

I'm still pretty reluctant to make this a sexual assault scene for the aformentioned reasons, but I could see doing it if I have sensitivity readers and handle it very carefully. What are your thoughts? Is there anything additional I'm not considering here?
 

JBCrowson

Inkling
I read quite a bit of your work on scribophile (no crits due to the way the (dis)incentives of their karma system work - though if you want I am willing to offer you one). I know the characters you're talking about, and the issues you've described them facing, so I think I am in a position to comment...

I think you should write the story the way you feel works best. For sure write with sensitivity - not glorying in needless violence (sexual or otherwise) for its own sake - here's why I say so:
A story in which nothing unpleasant is allowed to happen is going to be as boring as hell. Imagine a romance in which the lovers meet and live happily ever after with no problems; or a hero who succeeds in the quest with no-one getting hurt or dying or being betrayed. These are stories most of us would hate. I think a big part of that is because we all recognise "that's not how real life is".

Take war as an example. We write stories about war all the time. War is a far far worse thing to happen to those involved in it than a forced / stolen kiss (I'd maybe allow the one in Gethsemane if you really pushed me). We 'get away' with writing war stories not because war isn't awful; not because we don't describe its horrors; but because anything that horrific can, with sensitive handling, make for a compelling read. Our characters leap from the page most vividly when we stress them with adversity and portray believeably how they react. Your kiss is, in my view, similar.

So I say go, write it, make it work for you and your story. If that is the main reason anyone dislikes it then you will have a fantastic book.
 

Diana Silver

Troubadour
Hi Dolly,
Unfortunately, when I posted this chapter of my story on a couple critique sites, people began to read romantic chemistry and "star-crossed lovers" into the relationship.

Could I ask whose perspective is this scene written from?

she's only clinging to him because she's scared for her future

a. How deeply are readers supposed to know and understand that she's coming at it from that angle, especially if it's only chapter two? And b. why would this fact preclude the possibility of it becoming a ligit romantic relationship? Plenty of relationship start because at least one of the partners feels emotionally needy and insecure about their future...

I will be honest: even from your explanation with all the intended bagage spelled out, it doesn't sound very toxic or disturbing to me. At most obnoxious.
Someone kisses you while you didn't expect it, then that person claims you love them while you don't... Sure, it's not great, but as I said, that doesn't rise to anything above obnoxious, at face value.

Content-wise, I'd say you might need to go pretty deep to drive home the point that this situation is problematic. About ten notches more intense, probably, indeed. Making it sexual assault might do the trick. Although I am sad to say that even with that, some readers will still read a romance into it, if you don't make it a very clear scene and take us through the aftermath in equally clear terms.

Whether that's the type of scene you want in your second chapter, that's of course a seperate question.

Might it be another solution to write this from the perspective of the guy (if it isn't already), and give him some bagage that the reader knows about and makes very clear that unsolicited kisses are very upsetting to him - for whatever reason? Or could you instead just write the part where she wrongly accuses him of assaulting her? Because now that I think about it, the writer's choice to show two characters kissing, is a clear signpost for the start of a romantic subplot. If you chose instead not to write it out in a scene, there'd be a lot less room for confusion.

I was planning to write this scene as an assault. She was going to kiss him without his consent

European here... Honest question: does 'kissing someone without consent' constitute assault? I will agree that in particular situations in real life and in a court of law, it can. But if you take any two random civilians in no particular professional relationship to each other, and one makes unwanted advances to the point of kissing... I don't think that's soon gonna be read as sexual assault - certainly not in a novel. In a novel, that reads like the tension-filled build-up to a romantic subplot.

And also...
However, I softened it
You mean in the version that you have now, she doesn't even kiss him? Maybe I'm understanding you wrong, please correct me if so.

And as a very last point...

she claims "I know you care for me," which he is horrified by and basically tells her she's just being emotional and he needs to get away from her
... makes the guy sound like a bit of a douche, tbh.
 
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pmmg

Myth Weaver
She tried to kiss him and we need trigger warnings for sexual assault? Yikes... If those are my readers, I don't want them.

'I think you care for me' is hardly definitive. It very nature holds the possibility that he doesn't. Sounds to me like she is looking for confirmation or validation. It also sounds like the culture/societal pressure is one where he would be aghast she would think so. What would a slave owner think of a slave who made such a comment. I can see the reaction coming out strong, if such a dynamic were in play.

I am not sure how her actually kissing him leads to a better false claim of assault. She can claim that whether there is a kiss or not. To me, the false claim is the disgusting act in this.

But....people do hurtful, disgusting, and harmful things all the time. Why would I write to keep that out of my story? The scene you describe sounds like it has 'in character' and 'in scene' actions to me. So...my advice, as always, is to write them true.


Given the many things I can gleam from comments on Goodreads, I would say, enemies to lovers, and relationships with mixed signals have a large following, and so I can see where many might jump to....this is just to set up a romance later in the story. That might be harder to overcome. If you don't want that, I think there needs to be something definitive to signal it. I am not sure what that would be, cause even if I break the fourth wall, and say...dear reader, no relationship is coming, some will probably still think it is.

I think your gonna have to show her hurt, and that it changes her to never thinking in those terms again.
 
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dollyt8

Troubadour
Thank you all for your replies! You brought up a lot of things I hadn't considered. Let me see if I can answer them all.

First, yes, someone being kissed against their will has often been considered sexual assault, and since I'm very close to people who this has happened to, I can say that they also consider it sexual assault. In particular, it will be sexual assault if it is from someone in a position of power towards someone who is not (much younger, an employee, etc.)

Second, a very important piece of context here that I stupidly forgot to mention is that besides being a second-rate citizen, the ashdrain is also an indentured servant to ashbranded woman's family, which significantly changes the power dynamic. Since I didn't explain that at the outset, I'm realizing now that some of the responses I got might be very different with this info.

Third, the TW is just a precaution.

I'll try to answer the questions more specifically now:
Hi Dolly,


Could I ask whose perspective is this scene written from?
It's from the ashdrain's perspective, so it's from the POV of the person who is receiving unwanted affection.
a. How deeply are readers supposed to know and understand that is coming at it from that angle, especially if it's only chapter two? And b. why would this fact preclude the possibility of it becoming a ligit romantic relationship? Plenty of relationship start because at least one of the partners feels emotionally needy and insecure about their future...
a. For one, the power dynamic would make it somewhat problematic from the start for some people. For another, the character immediately recoils in disgust and expresses his horror, since he could be executed if there's any "impropriety" between them. b. I think this comes back to the fact that he's an indentured servant. But it wouldn't necessarily preclude a romantic relationship, except that I do believe the unwanted kissing would constitute sexual assault in this instance.
Whether that's the type of scene you want in your second chapter, that's of course a seperate question.

Might it be another solution to write this from the perspective of the guy (if it isn't already), and give him some bagage that the reader knows about and that make it very clear that unsolicited kisses are very upsetting to him - for whatever reason? Or could you instead just write the part where she wrongly accuses him of assaulting her? Because now that I think about it, the writer's choice to show two characters kissing, is a clear signpost for the start of a romantic subplot. If you chose instead not to write it out in a scene, there'd be a lot less room for confusion.
He does mention that it could result in him being executed because of the fraternization laws, so I think that should make it clear as far as baggage. As far as getting rid of the scene entirely, the problem is that she does have a one-sided crush on him that is shown in multiple parts throughout the book and is a major plot point, so I don't necessarily think I can avoid confusion even if I remove it.
European here... Honest question: does 'kissing someone without consent' constitute sexual assault, in your view? I will agree that in particular situations in real life and in a court of law, it can. But if you take any two random civilians in no particular professional relationship to each other, and one makes unwanted advances to the point of kissing... That's not sexual assault. Certainly not in a novel. In a novel, that reads like the tension-filled build-up to a romantic subplot.
That is on me; I didn't make it clear in my original post that they do have a professional relationship and he's an indentured servant to her family. I thought it would be clearly understood as sexual assault in this particular instance because of that dynamic.
And also...

You mean in the version that you have now, they do not even kiss? Maybe I'm understanding you wrong, please correct me if so.
Correct; the version that I have now does not include a kiss or anything physical whatsoever. The only thing that occurs is she says "I know you have feelings for me" and he takes this as basically being an accusation that could end up getting him killed, so he's quite startled and frightened by it. To be clear, the fraternization laws in the nation are quite strict. Any kind of affection between an ashdrain and an ashbranded could be enough to cause an execution, and since the ashbranded have more power and strong familial ties (they are pretty much the nobility of this world), the ashdrain is far more likely to be executed.

I hope that makes sense, and thank you for your input!
I read quite a bit of your work on scribophile (no crits due to the way the (dis)incentives of their karma system work - though if you want I am willing to offer you one). I know the characters you're talking about, and the issues you've described them facing, so I think I am in a position to comment...
That's neat to hear! I do think the karma system can be a bit tough. You have to spend so much time critiquing before you can actually post anything. If you want to critique, I would of course love to hear your thoughts in more detail, but I think the current chapters are locked at the moment and can't receive any more critiques, so it would have to be when I unlock them again.
I think you should write the story the way you feel works best. For sure write with sensitivity - not glorying in needless violence (sexual or otherwise) for its own sake - here's why I say so:
A story in which nothing unpleasant is allowed to happen is going to be as boring as hell. Imagine a romance in which the lovers meet and live happily ever after with no problems; or a hero who succeeds in the quest with no-one getting hurt or dying or being betrayed. These are stories most of us would hate. I think a big part of that is because we all recognise "that's not how real life is".

Take war as an example. We write stories about war all the time. War is a far far worse thing to happen to those involved in it than a forced / stolen kiss (I'd maybe allow the one in Gethsemane if you really pushed me). We 'get away' with writing war stories not because war isn't awful; not because we don't describe its horrors; but because anything that horrific can, with sensitive handling, make for a compelling read. Our characters leap from the page most vividly when we stress them with adversity and portray believeably how they react. Your kiss is, in my view, similar.

So I say go, write it, make it work for you and your story. If that is the main reason anyone dislikes it then you will have a fantastic book.
Thank you for your perspective! There are definitely already a lot of hard and ugly things that happen in the book that aren't really sugarcoated, but I see what you're saying. I think my biggest issue is that I wasn't sure if it would turn readers off too early, but from what I'm understanding, a lot of people won't have much of a problem with it.
She tried to kiss him and we need trigger warnings for sexual assault? Yikes... If those are my readers, I don't want them.
I did forget to add in the fact that he's an indentured servant to her family, which I think changes the dynamic. But I figured I'd add the TW just in case.
'I think you care for me' is hardly definitive. It very nature holds the possibility that he doesn't. Sounds to me like she is looking for confirmation or validation. It also sounds like the culture/societal pressure is one where he would be aghast she would think so. What would a slave owner think of a slave who made such a comment. I can see the reaction coming out strong, if such a dynamic were in play.
Very true! He's completely horrified also because it puts his life at risk because of the fraternization laws.
I am not sure how her actually kissing him leads to a better false claim of assault. She can claim that whether there is a kiss or not. To me, the false claim is the disgusting act in this.
Yes, that's definitely supposed to be an awful and disgusting act on her part!
But....people do hurtful, disgusting, and harmful things all the time. Why would I write to keep that out of my story? The scene you describe sounds like it has 'in character' and 'in scene' actions to me. So...my advice, as always, is to write them true.

Given the many things I can gleam from comments on Goodreads, I would say, enemies to lovers, and relationships with mixed signals have a large following, and so I can see where many might jump to....this is just to set up a romance later in the story. That might be harder to overcome. If you don't want that, I think there needs to be something definitive to signal it. I am not sure what that would be, cause even if I break the fourth wall, and say...dear reader, no relationship is coming, some will probably still think it is.

I think your gonna have to show her hurt, and that it changes her to never thinking in those terms again.
Thank you, that makes sense and I think you're right. I'm probably a bit oversensitive on some of these topics, and it can end up taking some of the realism out of my writing in certain cases.

Again, thanks all, and if I answered anything in a way that was unclear or seemed rude, I apologize; I'm writing this close to my bedtime 😅
 

Diana Silver

Troubadour
Hmm... Another thought: now that you've explained further, it sounds like the guy is appalled because of a law that makes it dangerous.
That may not be the best foundation to build his motivation on. I mean, when Romeo & Julliet were kept apart by some social law, we only wanted them to get together more, to break the chains of hypocrisy and injustice...

Does your scene maybe accidentally imply that the guy is only horrified and disgusted because of fear for that law (and therefore he would probably be open to her, if not for the law)? Because that is pretty much the definition of star-crossed. Maybe he needs to have a more internal, personal motivation to not want her to come at him like this, aside from the law that makes it dangerous.
 
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In a fiction novel, I wouldn't consider a kiss without consent to be sexual assault unless the person being kissed is also physically restrained or there's a big struggle. Even with the power dynamic you mentioned.

What's more, from the sound of it, your protagonist is a teenager. They do stupid stuff all the time, and would definitely not consider the power dynamic involved. Again, in fiction, I wouldn't consider it assault. Just a teenager doing something stupid they'd regret in the morning. And I agree with Diana that if the character being kissed is appalled because it's against the law, then that sounds like a set up where the characters are aiming to get the law changed.
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
My feeling is keep the kiss, and have her rebuffed.

If she is really looking to find a way to press charges on him, maybe she could scuff herself up some to make it seem like he did.

I am not sure how he would get out of it, but....writing stories is often like, create a problem, solve a problem, create more problems....solve more problems....

I'm gonna pass on the sensibilities of others, and leave it at what I said before.
 

Dylan

Scribe
It's also in the title, but I want to again highlight a trigger warning for sexual assault. Please do not read if you are likely to be affected by this or find it upsetting!

In my NaNoWriMo project, Ashbranded, I have a very important scene that I've gotten some feedback on. In the country featured in the book, characters without powers (derogatorily called ashdrains) aren't allowed to love or have physical relations with those who do have magical powers (the ashbranded). One of the characters who is descended from a long line of ashbranded is coming into her powers late. Because she's afraid she won't end up with powers and will become a second-rate citizen, she begins to unnaturally cling to anyone who she thinks will care about her, and one of those people is an ashdrain. She basically has a conversation with him in which she tries to get him to promise that he'll stay with her no matter what and she claims "I know you care for me," which he is horrified by and basically tells her she's just being emotional and he needs to get away from her. This becomes a major plot point later when she lies that he did express feelings for her and tried to trick her into falling for him.

Here's the problem I have. Originally, I was planning to write this scene as an assault. She was going to kiss him without his consent and later accuse him of phsyically assaulting her. However, I softened it because I didn't want to use sexual assault merely as a plot point considering how much this happens in real life, plus this character goes through some really awful stuff across the book and I didn't just want to keep piling it on. And it happens in the second chapter, which I feel could offput a lot of people really early in the book.

Unfortunately, when I posted this chapter of my story on a couple critique sites, people began to read romantic chemistry and "star-crossed lovers" into the relationship. I don't see the relationship between these characters as romantic; it's toxic at best and I tried to make it very clear he's extremely uncomfortable. But people seemed to think I was shoehorning in a romance that had barely been hinted at (again, it's not romantic; she's only clinging to him because she's scared for her future) or that it was fun romantic tension as opposed to disturbing. Other people seemed to feel he was just overreacting, since all she said was basically "I think you care for me." And it also seems like it would be hard to make laws that forbid ashdrains just liking ashbranded, as opposed to outlawing actual physical relations between the two. I think it works because ashdrains are so despised that most ashbranded wouldn't mind killing them just on suspicion, but I'm not sure.

I'm still pretty reluctant to make this a sexual assault scene for the aformentioned reasons, but I could see doing it if I have sensitivity readers and handle it very carefully. What are your thoughts? Is there anything additional I'm not considering here?
I don’t think you need to make the scene more intense, but it might help to make the tone and dynamics clearer so there’s no room for misinterpretation. Focus more on showing his discomfort like through his body language or how he reacts and really highlight her desperation in a way that feels more manipulative or fear driven than romantic. It sounds like you’re handling this thoughtfully, so with some tweaks, the scene can hit the right tone without needing to escalate things further.
 

Fidel

Scribe
It's also in the title, but I want to again highlight a trigger warning for sexual assault. Please do not read if you are likely to be affected by this or find it upsetting!

In my NaNoWriMo project, Ashbranded, I have a very important scene that I've gotten some feedback on. In the country featured in the book, characters without powers (derogatorily called ashdrains) aren't allowed to love or have physical relations with those who do have magical powers (the ashbranded). One of the characters who is descended from a long line of ashbranded is coming into her powers late. Because she's afraid she won't end up with powers and will become a second-rate citizen, she begins to unnaturally cling to anyone who she thinks will care about her, and one of those people is an ashdrain. She basically has a conversation with him in which she tries to get him to promise that he'll stay with her no matter what and she claims "I know you care for me," which he is horrified by and basically tells her she's just being emotional and he needs to get away from her. This becomes a major plot point later when she lies that he did express feelings for her and tried to trick her into falling for him.

Here's the problem I have. Originally, I was planning to write this scene as an assault. She was going to kiss him without his consent and later accuse him of phsyically assaulting her. However, I softened it because I didn't want to use sexual assault merely as a plot point considering how much this happens in real life, plus this character goes through some really awful stuff across the book and I didn't just want to keep piling it on. And it happens in the second chapter, which I feel could offput a lot of people really early in the book.

Unfortunately, when I posted this chapter of my story on a couple critique sites, people began to read romantic chemistry and "star-crossed lovers" into the relationship. I don't see the relationship between these characters as romantic; it's toxic at best and I tried to make it very clear he's extremely uncomfortable. But people seemed to think I was shoehorning in a romance that had barely been hinted at (again, it's not romantic; she's only clinging to him because she's scared for her future) or that it was fun romantic tension as opposed to disturbing. Other people seemed to feel he was just overreacting, since all she said was basically "I think you care for me." And it also seems like it would be hard to make laws that forbid ashdrains just liking ashbranded, as opposed to outlawing actual physical relations between the two. I think it works because ashdrains are so despised that most ashbranded wouldn't mind killing them just on suspicion, but I'm not sure.

I'm still pretty reluctant to make this a sexual assault scene for the aformentioned reasons, but I could see doing it if I have sensitivity readers and handle it very carefully. What are your thoughts? Is there anything additional I'm not considering here?
This is a really complex situation, and I appreciate how carefully you're approaching it. I think you're right to avoid using assault as just a plot device, but exploring the toxic dynamic is important. If you decide to make it an assault, sensitivity readers would be key in ensuring it’s handled well. The emotional fallout and the power imbalance between the characters are crucial to make the scene clear and avoid romanticizing it. It’s about showing the fear and manipulation, not a romantic connection, so being clear about that will help guide readers. You’re definitely on the right track in thinking this through carefully.
 
It's difficult to say. If you're asking what I would do, I would have the woman kiss the man in the scene and have the man push her away, but then I usually lean towards darker writing without much care for sensitivity. It seems that this is something that you have put a lot of thought into, and so ultimately, you need to do what feels right to you.

If you're asking, "would readers find it too dark/triggering to have the woman kiss the man in this scene when he is clearly uncomfortable with it?" I'd say it depends entirely on the reader. I think at least 90% of readers would be okay with it, especially since you seem to be portraying it correctly in that this is 100% a sexual assault and not remotely okay.

Personally, I only find scenes like this problematic if the writer is portraying them in a way that indicates the assault is somehow acceptable or "not so bad". Like if the scene were written sympathetically towards the woman who committed the assault because, "Awh! Poor diddums! She kissed the man and he didn't kiss her back! What a meanie!"

A story in which nothing unpleasant is allowed to happen is going to be as boring as hell.
👆👆👆 This! Exactly! While I understand the desire for sensitivity, I have also seen things taken to the extreme where some readers will encourage writers to avoid any kind of violence or discrimination in their writing because it can be potentially triggering. But when it gets to the point that the villains are no longer allowed to do anything villainous, it kind of eliminates the potential for conflict.

I will be honest: even from your explanation with all the intended bagage spelled out, it doesn't sound very toxic or disturbing to me. At most obnoxious.
Someone kisses you while you didn't expect it, then that person claims you love them while you don't... Sure, it's not great, but as I said, that doesn't rise to anything above obnoxious, at face value.
I think it's a but deeper than that. Honestly, if a guy I didn't have feelings for kissed me out of nowhere, with me giving no indication that I was interested in him, I'd be pretty livid. But more than that, this is a scenario where "ashdrains" are forbidden from having relationships with "ashbranded", so, if the kiss were discovered, the man would get into serious trouble for it, even though it was the woman who initiated it. Essentially, by kissing him, the woman is saying, "Yeah, if somebody catches us, you'll be exiled or executed or whatever happens to ashdrains who pursue relationships with ashbranded... But I'm feeling lonely and insecure, so I don't care. Kiss me!!!"

Content-wise, I'd say you might need to go pretty deep to drive home the point that this situation is problematic. About ten notches more intense, probably, indeed. Making it sexual assault might do the trick.
I definitely don't think that's necessary. I think the only thing that Dolly needs to do to drive home that the situation is problematic is have the male character react in a way that shows he considers it problematic. I mean, if a woman kisses a man and the man pushes her away and says, "No! I don't feel that way about you!" that's a pretty clear indication to me that it's problematic... Also the fact that the woman then goes on to accuse the man of sexual assault kind of clarifies the problematicness of the situation.
Given the many things I can gleam from comments on Goodreads, I would say, enemies to lovers, and relationships with mixed signals have a large following, and so I can see where many might jump to....this is just to set up a romance later in the story.
Yeah, this too. If the guy makes it clear that he's not interested and people still think this is a sweet, budding romance, I'd say that's a problem with the readers rather than with the writing. 😝
 

dollyt8

Troubadour
It's difficult to say. If you're asking what I would do, I would have the woman kiss the man in the scene and have the man push her away, but then I usually lean towards darker writing without much care for sensitivity. It seems that this is something that you have put a lot of thought into, and so ultimately, you need to do what feels right to you.

If you're asking, "would readers find it too dark/triggering to have the woman kiss the man in this scene when he is clearly uncomfortable with it?" I'd say it depends entirely on the reader. I think at least 90% of readers would be okay with it, especially since you seem to be portraying it correctly in that this is 100% a sexual assault and not remotely okay.
Good to know. I'm afraid I don't really have a baseline for what readers generally consider acceptable vs. what's over the top 😅 And I know for a fact I'm a bit oversensitive in what I read anyway, so it's hard for me to judge.
Personally, I only find scenes like this problematic if the writer is portraying them in a way that indicates the assault is somehow acceptable or "not so bad". Like if the scene were written sympathetically towards the woman who committed the assault because, "Awh! Poor diddums! She kissed the man and he didn't kiss her back! What a meanie!"


👆👆👆 This! Exactly! While I understand the desire for sensitivity, I have also seen things taken to the extreme where some readers will encourage writers to avoid any kind of violence or discrimination in their writing because it can be potentially triggering. But when it gets to the point that the villains are no longer allowed to do anything villainous, it kind of eliminates the potential for conflict.
Thank you for your input; that makes a lot of sense.
I think it's a but deeper than that. Honestly, if a guy I didn't have feelings for kissed me out of nowhere, with me giving no indication that I was interested in him, I'd be pretty livid. But more than that, this is a scenario where "ashdrains" are forbidden from having relationships with "ashbranded", so, if the kiss were discovered, the man would get into serious trouble for it, even though it was the woman who initiated it. Essentially, by kissing him, the woman is saying, "Yeah, if somebody catches us, you'll be exiled or executed or whatever happens to ashdrains who pursue relationships with ashbranded... But I'm feeling lonely and insecure, so I don't care. Kiss me!!!"
I wasn't sure I was explaining it right, but this is exactly the situation I'm trying to get across.
Yeah, this too. If the guy makes it clear that he's not interested and people still think this is a sweet, budding romance, I'd say that's a problem with the readers rather than with the writing. 😝
Thanks for the reassurance; I think I know what I want to do with the scene now and much appreciate all the advice and help in this thread!
 

Fidel

Scribe
It's also in the title, but I want to again highlight a trigger warning for sexual assault. Please do not read if you are likely to be affected by this or find it upsetting!

In my NaNoWriMo project, Ashbranded, I have a very important scene that I've gotten some feedback on. In the country featured in the book, characters without powers (derogatorily called ashdrains) aren't allowed to love or have physical relations with those who do have magical powers (the ashbranded). One of the characters who is descended from a long line of ashbranded is coming into her powers late. Because she's afraid she won't end up with powers and will become a second-rate citizen, she begins to unnaturally cling to anyone who she thinks will care about her, and one of those people is an ashdrain. She basically has a conversation with him in which she tries to get him to promise that he'll stay with her no matter what and she claims "I know you care for me," which he is horrified by and basically tells her she's just being emotional and he needs to get away from her. This becomes a major plot point later when she lies that he did express feelings for her and tried to trick her into falling for him.

Here's the problem I have. Originally, I was planning to write this scene as an assault. She was going to kiss him without his consent and later accuse him of phsyically assaulting her. However, I softened it because I didn't want to use sexual assault merely as a plot point considering how much this happens in real life, plus this character goes through some really awful stuff across the book and I didn't just want to keep piling it on. And it happens in the second chapter, which I feel could offput a lot of people really early in the book.

Unfortunately, when I posted this chapter of my story on a couple critique sites, people began to read romantic chemistry and "star-crossed lovers" into the relationship. I don't see the relationship between these characters as romantic; it's toxic at best and I tried to make it very clear he's extremely uncomfortable. But people seemed to think I was shoehorning in a romance that had barely been hinted at (again, it's not romantic; she's only clinging to him because she's scared for her future) or that it was fun romantic tension as opposed to disturbing. Other people seemed to feel he was just overreacting, since all she said was basically "I think you care for me." And it also seems like it would be hard to make laws that forbid ashdrains just liking ashbranded, as opposed to outlawing actual physical relations between the two. I think it works because ashdrains are so despised that most ashbranded wouldn't mind killing them just on suspicion, but I'm not sure.

I'm still pretty reluctant to make this a sexual assault scene for the aformentioned reasons, but I could see doing it if I have sensitivity readers and handle it very carefully. What are your thoughts? Is there anything additional I'm not considering here?
This is a tricky one. Honestly, it sounds like you’re already being thoughtful about the weight of the subject, which is great. If you’re not 100% committed to the assault angle, maybe lean into the emotional manipulation instead, it’s already toxic and unsettling, and it could still drive the plot without crossing into that darker territory. As for the “star-crossed lovers” feedback, maybe amp up the discomfort in his reactions and her desperation to make it clearer this isn’t romance. And yeah, sensitivity readers are a must if you do go darker. Trust your gut it’s your story, after all.
 
I don't really have a baseline for what readers generally consider acceptable vs. what's over the top
Well that completely depends on the reader. There are some readers (like me) who will not find anything over the top and the darker and more messed up the story is, the better. That said, there are also readers who will say, "I found this book really triggering because it had a scene in it where a woman was eating peanuts and my best friend's next door neighbour's cousin is allergic to peanuts, so I think that was really insensitive." My advice would be, find your own happy medium and write whatever you would feel comfortable reading.
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
Well that completely depends on the reader. There are some readers (like me) who will not find anything over the top and the darker and more messed up the story is, the better. That said, there are also readers who will say, "I found this book really triggering because it had a scene in it where a woman was eating peanuts and my best friend's next door neighbour's cousin is allergic to peanuts, so I think that was really insensitive." My advice would be, find your own happy medium and write whatever you would feel comfortable reading.

I'd just add, that the really sensitive types are fringe. There will be no pleasing them. 90% or more will not think a stolen kiss is offensive. Or peanuts for that matter. Heck, bad stuff happens in the world, if you cant fearlessly write about it, you are on a difficult road. Don't write for the most sensitive, write what seems right to you.
 

Diana Silver

Troubadour
I'd just add, that the really sensitive types are fringe. There will be no pleasing them. 90% or more will not think a stolen kiss is offensive. Or peanuts for that matter. Heck, bad stuff happens in the world, if you cant fearlessly write about it, you are on a difficult road. Don't write for the most sensitive, write what seems right to you.
All of this, I'll second.
 
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