Villain Plans

[TheCrystallineEntity]

“Here comes a giant wall of text!
Okay, so I was looking at the most recent article on Mythcreants about characters going against the flow, and I got thinking, so what about when the character in question is a villain? It is, naturally, quite difficult for many writers to make the villain's perspective balance the hero's perspective without going too far in either direction.
I've never written a villain before [the earliest drafts of my first book back when I was a lot younger not withstanding], and I'm trying to be careful about it, but a part of me thinks it isn't working in my latest book.

Specifically, the villain is one of those people who has bad experience after bad experience with only tiny bits of relief throughout his life. As a result of that, he basically wants to lash out at the universe and wants to know if there's a point to anything.
He thinks that the main character [who, by the way, is a celestial, timeless being and the anthropomorphic personification of dreams and imagination] is manipulative and emotionally distant to the point of being apathetic, and I made it so that the main character's story is told through other character's viewpoints that neither confirm nor deny the villain's perspective, with little hints that could go either way.
The villain thinks that removing the main character entirely from the universe will make things better for everyone, disregarding the fact that doing so would be like removing the sun to try to stop global warming.

I'm also trying to make the villain threatening while the overall story is supposed to be comedic, so to say that I'm juggling a lot at once is a massive, massive understatement.

I was looking at the article on villain master plans, and decided to fill it out.

1. What’s Stopping Them From Carrying It Out?
In my stories, it is impossible to harm or kill someone or something that is not incarnate. Since the main character is a celestial being, the villain cannot kill them. Therefore, the closest the villain can get to that is to become the personification's new host [as in a symbiotic relationship], and to do that, he needs the main character's heart. [By heart, I mean the essence/being holding the character together, not the organ.]
Also, though the villain has the ability to rewrite anyone's backstory, he cannot use it to violate anyone's free will, and if he tried to use it on himself to automatically become the new host, it would count as both violating the personification and the current hosts' free will and consequently backlash on him.

2. Why Do They Want to Do It?
To hypothetically make the omniverse a better place for everyone. [People keep asking the villain, 'well, what do you mean by better', and he doesn't know how to answer adequately.]

3. What Will the Results Be?
The villain would discover that the omniverse is ages more complex than he thought, and that being an anthropomorphic personification is like looking into a shattered mirror, and also learns several universal lessons, laws, and secrets.

4. How Can the Hero Stop It?
The main character kind of can't, as they can't violate anyone's free will unless their own or their family's are threatened or violated in some way. Technically the villain doesn't do anything against anyone's free will until the climax, and then it's too late to stop him.

5. Why Can’t Anyone Besides the Hero Stop It?
We're dealing with god-like beings here, and while the main character's surrogate family are powerful enough in their own right, they can't do anything when the villain gains the sphere keeping the main character's heart in check and turns it into a weapon against them.

In my current story plans, the villain actually succeeds and becomes the new host, and everything changes.

So, to conclude this massive question that isn't really a question: In your opinion, do you think a villain like this could work?”

Alternate character interpretation is also valid; being a celestial being, it could be that the personification wants the villain to win, as a chance for him to gain character development and become a kinder person. Sort of like an Obi-Wan gambit, I guess?

With all that said, perhaps villain isn't quite the right word. Antagonist might work better. The rather generalized meanings of both doesn't really help, either, and I'm not too sure on the fine details myself.

I'm very fascinated with memory and identity, and so my first series focused on the former and my latest has themes of the latter. That reminds me, I was thinking about how one of the underlying questions of Doctor Who is whether the Doctor is the same every time s/he regenerates, and that brought me to the Theseus' Paradox referenced by the Twelfth Doctor in his first episode. In sort--does the personification have its own personality, does the personality come from the host, or is it a mixture of the two? [I like thinking big philosophical thoughts, as you may have noticed.]

If the 'villain' wins, it'll lead directly into my next planned book wherein he struggles with his new role and identity issues and loneliness after the personification's friends desert him for not being the same as the previous host as well as after he makes some unwise decisions. Similarly, the old host has to cope with suddenly being, well, singular, and with the staggering loss of everything he once had. It'll also focus on the question of divinity, and what defines a god. The biggest theme might be on how if gods get called out on their actions, typically they say something like 'I'm a god, I can do these things' regardless of whether the action is immoral from a human perspective. That's bothered me for years, and I started thinking, well, what if people think gods are like that because people themselves act like that, and then I thought, what if it's the other way round, what if people are, at an essential level, divine, and just don't know it because otherwise they wouldn't grow or change?

Anyway, sorry for rambling on, and hopefully someone will find this interesting.

 

[Night Gardener]

TheCrystallineEntity , this probably makes sense to you, but to clarify:
1. The 'Spirit' of Dreams and Imagination is a non-corporeal, celestial being.
2. This Spirit has a 'heart' that holds it "together" in a Host.

My first question is, Why does this Spirit need a host body to *essentially* Exist?

Secondly, your villain/antagonist interacts with the Celestial being ...How? A crappy existence is one thing, how does this Antagonist/ Villain character make the deductive leap to rid the current Embodiment host pair-bond from the Universe as a valid plan of action to "fix" some perceived wrong? What is the perceived wrong with Dreams /Imagination directly relating to the Antagonist? Is the character's anger based on personal interaction or philosophical happenings? I ask, because it's an oddly specific component (Dreams and Imagination) to single out among (what I'm assuming) is a Pantheon of other Embodiments? Why not get angry with Luck? Or Hope? Or Karma?

If it's a simple motive of "Hell, I can do a better job than that guy" then wanting to take the 'heart' /role for himself makes sense. Otherwise, the Antagonist is literally going to merge with and become the very thing he hates. And that's a weird concept to articulate, hating something so much you want to... be it? As it isn't 'jealously' as a motive, that is indeed a complex idea. Regarding the antagonist's Free Will, he would *want* to become the thing he hates. Maybe a deeply repressed part of him subconsciously *wants* to *be* the Embodiment.

My first thought would be that the Antagonist was not expecting the Spirit to also *want* to merge with him, and then ::Boom:: it happens. I think the Obi-Wan Gambit thing is a great idea. Also, perhaps, a bit of "It's a Wonderful Life" to actually exist in a Omniverse without a functioning Dreams or Imagination.

Sometimes, the worst thing that could ever happen to you... is getting what you want.

So, to answer your question: Yes, that idea should work for an Antagonist. Villain I think is a bit too severe for the plot and desired outcomes you're describing. Comedy should work well, too. It already has some far-out ideas, you should color it with humor wherever you can. Especially if it irks the Antagonist.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

OK, I think I may have a handle on your plot - or I may not so don't be surprised if this is completely useless.

Your villain has had a shitty life. Things have gone wrong. He wants someone to blame - but there's nobody. And he feels as though he's been cheated by this celestial of dreams and imagination - lied to. So his plan is to get rid of the lies presumably? Tell the truth that the world is a shitty place and don't live in false hope?

He can't kill the celestial. So instead he intends to bond with it somehow? (I don't get that part.) Presumably by killing the old host and taking his place? And once this bonding is done and he's the host he can influence the celestial into giving out more "realistic" dreams? So I suppose he would be the grim dark author taking over from the epic fantasy author.

So what say he does this, and the celestial isn't vaguely bothered by it because as the villain tries to change the celestial, the celestial instead changes the villain / host? So the villain is defeated and yet somehow happier for it. Captain Ahab having spent his life hunting his whale, right at the end finds himself falling in love with Moby!

Cheers, Greg.

 

[TheCrystallineEntity]

TheCrystallineEntity , this probably makes sense to you, but to clarify:
1. The 'Spirit' of Dreams and Imagination is a non-corporeal, celestial being.
2. This Spirit has a 'heart' that holds it "together" in a Host.

My first question is, Why does this Spirit need a host body to *essentially* Exist?

Secondly, your villain/antagonist interacts with the Celestial being ...How? A crappy existence is one thing, how does this Antagonist/ Villain character make the deductive leap to rid the current Embodiment host pair-bond from the Universe as a valid plan of action to "fix" some perceived wrong? What is the perceived wrong with Dreams /Imagination directly relating to the Antagonist? Is the character's anger based on personal interaction or philosophical happenings? I ask, because it's an oddly specific component (Dreams and Imagination) to single out among (what I'm assuming) is a Pantheon of other Embodiments? Why not get angry with Luck? Or Hope? Or Karma?

If it's a simple motive of "Hell, I can do a better job than that guy" then wanting to take the 'heart' /role for himself makes sense. Otherwise, the Antagonist is literally going to merge with and become the very thing he hates. And that's a weird concept to articulate, hating something so much you want to... be it? As it isn't 'jealously' as a motive, that is indeed a complex idea. Regarding the antagonist's Free Will, he would *want* to become the thing he hates. Maybe a deeply repressed part of him subconsciously *wants* to *be* the Embodiment.

My first thought would be that the Antagonist was not expecting the Spirit to also *want* to merge with him, and then ::Boom:: it happens. I think the Obi-Wan Gambit thing is a great idea. Also, perhaps, a bit of "It's a Wonderful Life" to actually exist in a Omniverse without a functioning Dreams or Imagination.

Sometimes, the worst thing that could ever happen to you... is getting what you want.

So, to answer your question: Yes, that idea should work for an Antagonist. Villain I think is a bit too severe for the plot and desired outcomes you're describing. Comedy should work well, too. It already has some far-out ideas, you should color it with humor wherever you can. Especially if it irks the Antagonist.

Dream happens to be the most powerful of the 'pantheon', as well as the oldest [though as Dream themself would say, 'what a linear idea'.

The Spirit doesn't need a body, but by joining with a host, it can experience life in a unique way without having to go through the whole mess of incarnation. It's rather similar to the Trill from Star Trek, actually.

{If it's a simple motive of "Hell, I can do a better job than that guy" then wanting to take the 'heart' /role for himself makes sense.}
That's it in a nutshell. The antagonist says as much in a big debate he has with Dream, and Dream's response is basically, 'you and everyone else thinks they can do better, unfortunately.', and the antagonist is left pondering what they mean.

{Sometimes, the worst thing that could ever happen to you... is getting what you want.} No kidding.

In the second half of the book, once the antagonist is the new host, he meets up with the original host and there's a lot of conflict to be tapped there. I'm looking forward to writing those scenes, particularly one where the latter says, 'You now have everything I lost. Are you happy now?' and the antagonist genuinely doesn't know what or how to answer.

 

[TheCrystallineEntity]

Hi,

OK, I think I may have a handle on your plot - or I may not so don't be surprised if this is completely useless.

Your villain has had a shitty life. Things have gone wrong. He wants someone to blame - but there's nobody. And he feels as though he's been cheated by this celestial of dreams and imagination - lied to. So his plan is to get rid of the lies presumably? Tell the truth that the world is a shitty place and don't live in false hope?

He can't kill the celestial. So instead he intends to bond with it somehow? (I don't get that part.) Presumably by killing the old host and taking his place? And once this bonding is done and he's the host he can influence the celestial into giving out more "realistic" dreams? So I suppose he would be the grim dark author taking over from the epic fantasy author.

So what say he does this, and the celestial isn't vaguely bothered by it because as the villain tries to change the celestial, the celestial instead changes the villain / host? So the villain is defeated and yet somehow happier for it. Captain Ahab having spent his life hunting his whale, right at the end finds himself falling in love with Moby!

Cheers, Greg.

It's not so much that the omniverse is a terrible place--rather, through his experiences, beliefs, and perceptions, he is utterly convinced that it is. He can't kill the old host in the sense that the old host is only partially incarnate, so he has to displace the host and bond with the personification. He has quite the massive identity crisis once he's joined, especially when he meets friends of the old host and they say 'you aren't are friend, what happened' and 'when are they coming back', and things like that.
At the end of the book, the antagonist has to make a staggeringly huge choice that will affect billions, yet is ultimately a personal one--to stay joined, or to let go and let the old host take over again. Even I don't know what is decision will be.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Still confused - but I've never let that stop me before! So the old host is only partly of this world and can't be killed and has to be replaced instead. Don't get that unless your other guy - the villain - is also only partly of this world, otherwise he's a normal human pushing a demigod out of the way. That generally doesn't work out well for mortals.

I get the identity crisis - but only to a point. If you actually start merging the "I's" you end up without either a hero or a villain but someone else and your story falls apart by virtue of the fact that you have a completely new character and neither of the originals. You have to have enough left of the individuals in order to have a story / crisis. If on the other hand it's just confusion over memories, that's easier to write / understand. Eg I remember building a bridge to the moon four thousand years before I was born!

The choice is trickier. The way I see it reading above, below and through the lines, is that it's actually two choices. One is to stay joined or not. The other is to do or not do whatever it is that's so important that be done by the bonded celestial which will affect billions of lives. Your task is to marry those two things up so that if he stays joined he can't do it for whatever reason, or they will be done if he parts company. The struggle comes in - I think - if through having been bonded he wants to stay that way so he has to make a sacrifice. And in doing so of course he is also rejecting his old shitty life.

Hope that helps.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[TheCrystallineEntity]

{Still confused - but I've never let that stop me before! So the old host is only partly of this world and can't be killed and has to be replaced instead. Don't get that unless your other guy - the villain - is also only partly of this world, otherwise he's a normal human pushing a demigod out of the way. That generally doesn't work out well for mortals.}

No being in my stories can harm another; if they try/do succeed, it backlashes on them. Even if the original host is reluctant, the personification itself could be willing to join with the antagonist, for the potential reasons mentioned earlier.

{I get the identity crisis - but only to a point. If you actually start merging the "I's" you end up without either a hero or a villain but someone else and your story falls apart by virtue of the fact that you have a completely new character and neither of the originals. You have to have enough left of the individuals in order to have a story / crisis. If on the other hand it's just confusion over memories, that's easier to write / understand. Eg I remember building a bridge to the moon four thousand years before I was born!}

Now I'm confused. How would my story fall apart? I don't quite understand. It's not that the personification and the host become a wholly new character. In a sense they are individual to a point, and that's there things get blurry.

It's a little more subtle than confusion over memories, as the antagonist would start to wonder where he begins and Dream ends, or the other way round, and what parts of his personality are influencing the Dream part, and visa versa. It's not just 'I remember doing x', it's...I guess I could describe it as slightly existentialist, which is rather odd since I'm probably the last person in the world to use that philosophy. The antagonist was so confident that 'this is me and I know exactly who I am' that such a drastic change threw it all into turmoil at him. At one point when asked 'when is the old Dream coming back', he blurts out without thinking, 'but I am Dream!' and then is horrified by it and immediately thinks, 'But I'm not...I'm me...'

Am I making any sense? When talking about metaphysics, things usually get complicated.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

The problem is more basic than that. At some point with this merging, you no longer have two people. At best you've got one person with multiple personalities - Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde etc. Now as long as they are distinct in some very clear way, you can still have them struggling against one another. But when you add confusion about identity in it gets very much harder to do that. Imagine Dr J is still trying to get rid of Hyde, but now he doesn't even know if he truly is Dr J! Because if he's actually Hyde than getting rid of Hyde is getting rid of himself.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[TheCrystallineEntity]

Well, I'm sorry then. I guess I won't go through with it.
How would you like the story to unfold?

The comparison of Jekyll and Hide makes sense to me. Is it that you're worried it might not makes sense to other people?

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Sorry. Didn't mean to upset you.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[TheCrystallineEntity]

No, it's fine. What can't be done can't be done, and that's all there is to it.

 

[TheCrystallineEntity]

I don't suppose anyone else wants to discuss this with me? I'm going to make it work as best I can.