What to do about the Villain - Open discussion :)

[Empathy001]

I don't think I'm looking for anything in particular here, if I'm honest. Just been thinking about my own villain a bit, and trying to piece together the best narrative outcome for her and my protagonists. For me, I'm probably going to redeem her since she doesn't understand the full consequences of her tyranny and has emotional ties to one of my two protagonists.

For authors who had good triumph over evil, authors who didn't, and any author or aspiring author who has something to say: what did you do with your villains?

 

[pmmg]

Hmmm...I dont wish to give away the end of my story.

I would say, the Villain needs to face an end that both seems likely given the rest of the story, and rings of justice. I suspect, if that is missing, it wont be loved by readers.

 

[Queshire]

I have a bad habit of coming up with characters that are meant to be villains only to find that I like writing them and they end up as my protagonists instead.

One of mine, the Dawn Queen, was meant to be a twist on sort of an Arthurian idea of the rightful ruler returning. She was the rightful ruler back during the age of gods and now she's back to gain her crown by conquest if necessary.

At least that was the original idea.

Now her origin is the same, but she's a wandering swordswoman shacked up with her mage girlfriend.

 

[Orc Knight]

I have several villains between the two ongoing stories.

Though a big primary example from the story I'm working on right now is my FMC's aunt (and several other family members) who betrays the family, kills even her own brothers and sisters to marry into the Empire and basically combine both nations into an even larger Empire. She sets up the FMC as a kin killer (turning that into a self fulfilling prophecy sort of thing) and all.

She's doing this all in the name of her own ambition, a hatred of half her family line due to old feuds and basically to hold as much power as she possibly can. And she kills, betrays and throws entire parts of her own blood family to the wolves to rule. And she does it all with a cup of wine in one hand and a bloody sword in the other while smiling.

 

[pmmg]

I have several villains between the two ongoing stories.

Though a big primary example from the story I'm working on right now is my FMC's aunt (and several other family members) who betrays the family, kills even her own brothers and sisters to marry into the Empire and basically combine both nations into an even larger Empire. She sets up the FMC as a kin killer (turning that into a self fulfilling prophecy sort of thing) and all.

She's doing this all in the name of her own ambition, a hatred of half her family line due to old feuds and basically to hold as much power as she possibly can. And she kills, betrays and throws entire parts of her own blood family to the wolves to rule. And she does it all with a cup of wine in one hand and a bloody sword in the other while smiling.

Sounds like my ex.

 

[Gurkhal]

There is nothing wrong with an ending which does not have a defeat, fall or death of the villain. An ending with redemption or even a victory for the villain can be good, if the story leads up to it. Or so I feel.

Some readers will not like that the villain isn't subject to a huge ammount of pain and violence at the end of the story, and some will probably like it. Don't worry overtly much about what they will like but what you want to write and write that well.

This may sound pretentious but I don't have villains, only characters, in my stories. That perspectives avoids trapping me in a "black and white" perspective on characters and story.

As an example I can mention that in "Hussar Life" the villains, if you want to call them that, wins at the end and get most of what they were aiming for. The part of the POV is in dying to deny some small part of total victory for the opposition.

While in "Dog Soldier" there is no villain but the story is how the dog and companion of the POV prevents him from becoming a villain.

 

[Rexenm]

You could lead them in, like Beauty and the Beast. Or lead them out, a villian need not meet their fate. Balanced judgement, could be key.

If you don’t like them, then they could jump off a cliff, or be stung by a hive of bees, or some other natural causes.

If you don’t like what happens to your character, then have them taken by a siren into the sea, or something to do with the laws of nature.

That could add the spice of mice to your mix.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Everyone, even the villain, is the hero of their ow story. We don't even try to use the term 'villain' and use it to symbolize whatever evil thing we want it to symbolize. Instead, we have protagonists, antagonists, and monkeys in the middle. Alliances shift, bonds are forged, and life is what happens when one is vowing eternal obedience to the forces of darkness. Protagonists and antagonists can switch sides, and monkeys in the middle seem like agents of chaos, changing their tactics as their goals change.

As a result, we've got a whole lot of characters poised to change at any given time.

 

[Prince of Spires]

Part of it depends on your specific sub-genre. If you're writing Grimdark, then everyone's the villain, and everyone loses in the end. If you're writing Noblebright, then your villain will probably lose in the end. In Romantasy, your villain and heroinne will probably fall in love by the end. And so on...

Also, while almost everyone is the hero of their own story, you don't have to portray them that way. If you're only in the viewpoint of your hero, then they can simply think your antagonist is the villain for the whole story, and as a consequence have the reader think the same thing. Nothing wrong with that.

I think the main thing is that you need to be true to the story. If your villain deserves to win, then let them win. If you want to redeem them, then you need to sprinkle in clues throughout the story that it's an option. And so on.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Part of it depends on your specific sub-genre. If you're writing Grimdark, then everyone's the villain, and everyone loses in the end. If you're writing Noblebright, then your villain will probably lose in the end. In Romantasy, your villain and heroinne will probably fall in love by the end. And so on...

Also, while almost everyone is the hero of their own story, you don't have to portray them that way. If you're only in the viewpoint of your hero, then they can simply think your antagonist is the villain for the whole story, and as a consequence have the reader think the same thing. Nothing wrong with that.

I think the main thing is that you need to be true to the story. If your villain deserves to win, then let them win. If you want to redeem them, then you need to sprinkle in clues throughout the story that it's an option. And so on.

I must be hanging out in the wrong places on the internet, because the only genre you mentioned that I recognize is Grimdark. I also love it.

 

[Jackarandajam]

The antagonist is just the embodied element of the force opposing your main character in their pursuit of the goal.
The demise of the antagonist should be the catalyst for the main characters internal struggle ending in the way you want it to at the end of the story.

 

[pmmg]

Funny, I cant seem to get away from Romantasy. Its all over goodreads.

I mean, I suppose its its own category, but feels a little illegitimate to me. Take two genres and smash them together is not new. Why not Fanmystery, or Romahorror? I am sure it could be done.

But, a lot of romance in the fantasy realms these days. Cant be on a fantasy sight there as its all secretly romance


I suppose, ultimately, I would steer people away from categories and Pidgeon holes anyway. They are meaningless. That someone notices that hey, your story might fit into such and such a definition, is silly. My story fits in to many definitions, and not exactly into any. It does not gain any extra value cause some think the can. That stuff is just for helping to market it anyway. So people know where to put it on their store shelves. The idea of categorizing, and then finding new categories in a category is an endless pit of trying to define.

 

[Jackarandajam]

Funny, I cant seem to get away from Romantasy. Its all over goodreads.

I mean, I suppose its its own category, but feels a little illegitimate to me. Take two genres and smash them together is not new. Why not Fanmystery, or Romahorror? I am sure it could be done.

But, a lot of romance in the fantasy realms these days. Cant be on a fantasy sight there as its all secretly romance


I suppose, ultimately, I would steer people away from categories and Pidgeon holes anyway. They are meaningless. That someone notices that hey, your story might fit into such and such a definition, is silly. My story fits in to many definitions, and not exactly into any. It does not gain any extra value cause some think the can. That stuff is just for helping to market it anyway. So people know where to put it on their store shelves. The idea of categorizing, and then finding new categories in a category is an endless pit of trying to define.

Goodreads and it is essentially all of self-published Amazon.
I hope they're officially subcategorizing fantasy on there, cause last time I checked when you punch in fantasy, 1 brazillion romantasies pop up.
When I'm looking for fantasy, I'm not looking for an infinite list of werewolf romance NSFW author avatar self-pieces. Thank you.

 

[pmmg]

Well. Goodreads is like 95% women and 95% of them have read ACOTAR. Almost none have read Conan.

I dont know that the self published can do well there. Seems like you have to be established to get attention.

 

[JBCrowson]

I don't think I'm looking for anything in particular here, if I'm honest. Just been thinking about my own villain a bit, and trying to piece together the best narrative outcome for her and my protagonists. For me, I'm probably going to redeem her since she doesn't understand the full consequences of her tyranny and has emotional ties to one of my two protagonists.

For authors who had good triumph over evil, authors who didn't, and any author or aspiring author who has something to say: what did you do with your villains?

In my series book one has two villains, in that there are two individuals who lead factions that oppose the MC and right hand person. One villain wins most of what they wanted by the end; the good guys lose most of what they hoped to save.
In book two the winner from book one is cast down, the other villain looks to have triumphed, but agrees to stop short of destruction when their true goal is gifted to them by the heroes.
By the end of book two the main villains of the series are more clearly seen emerging from the shadows. By series end, one of those villains finds redemption, the other is imprisoned for ever. Do the MC and their love interest live happily ever after? - you'll have to read the books to find out.

 

[Rexenm]

The demise of the antagonist should be the catalyst for the main characters internal struggle ending in the way you want it to at the end of the story.

An antagonist winning, depends on more factors, wouldn’t you say? It is easy to define the success of the hero, but they rely on less parameters than you would think and require an extreme scenario. If you define the hero as the winner, and the bad guy as the loser, you might have said enough already.

One villain wins most of what they wanted by the end; the good guys lose most of what they hoped to save.

Maybe the demise of hero makes a bad guy.

 

[Jackarandajam]

An antagonist winning, depends on more factors, wouldn’t you say? It is easy to define the success of the hero, but they rely on less parameters than you would think and require an extreme scenario. If you define the hero as the winner, and the bad guy as the loser, you might have said enough already.

Maybe the demise of hero makes a bad guy.

The antagonist never wins, but the protagonist might lose. If the antagonist wins, the antagonist was your protagonist.

The primary factor that defines the success of the hero is the fate of the antagonist. They are not separate.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I must be hanging out in the wrong places on the internet, because the only genre you mentioned that I recognize is Grimdark. I also love it.

Noblebright is sort of the reverse of Grimdark. The term has only been around a decade or so, and it doesn't have a lot of traction outside of those who write it (at least, that's my impression). Google gives me as a more exact definition that it's an approach to fantasy that emphasises hope, virtue, and the triumph of good over evil.

Some people point to Lord of the Rings as being one, though I personally think that it's not. LotR is not that easy to catch in a subgenre. The original Star Wars is Noblebright (though the term didn't exist). Eragon is another example.

Romantasy, or Romantic Fantasy is what it says. Romance in a Fantasy story. Think Sarah J. Maas. The Fantasy part should be the most important (otherwise it's Fantasy Romance), but it's a blurry line. It's also flooding all other fantasy genres on Amazon, making it hard to sometimes find anything else...

If you want more new genres (and some homework to find out what they are ), there's also Cosy Fantasy and LitRPG.

 

[Mad Swede]

Noblebright is sort of the reverse of Grimdark. The term has only been around a decade or so, and it doesn't have a lot of traction outside of those who write it (at least, that's my impression). Google gives me as a more exact definition that it's an approach to fantasy that emphasises hope, virtue, and the triumph of good over evil.

Some people point to Lord of the Rings as being one, though I personally think that it's not. LotR is not that easy to catch in a subgenre. The original Star Wars is Noblebright (though the term didn't exist). Eragon is another example.

Romantasy, or Romantic Fantasy is what it says. Romance in a Fantasy story. Think Sarah J. Maas. The Fantasy part should be the most important (otherwise it's Fantasy Romance), but it's a blurry line. It's also flooding all other fantasy genres on Amazon, making it hard to sometimes find anything else...

If you want more new genres (and some homework to find out what they are ), there's also Cosy Fantasy and LitRPG.

Star Wars is Space Opera rather than Noblebright, and Space Opera is an established term dating back to at least 1941.

Personally I'm not very fond of these attempts to more exactly categorise stories. For me the risk is that we as readers limit ourselves to certain types of stories, certain tightly defined genres, when perhaps we would gain more by reading more widely..

 

[Mad Swede]

I don't like the term villain, I prefer to think of them as complex characters who may be antagonists to the main characters in the story. At least in my stories these characters have aims and desires of their own, which may lead them to act in ways which are not always in others interests. In this way these characters in my stories can also have complex fates which aren't just about redemption or defeat.