What's the difference between these characters?

Discussion in 'Film & Television' started by Annoyingkid, Mar 26, 2018.

  1. Annoyingkid

    Annoyingkid Mystagogue

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    With the new release of the Tomb Raider reboot, I have to ask what's the difference between Katniss Everdeen and modern Lara Croft in terms of character? Not setting, but character. Because they seem like clones to me.

    http://www.mtv.co.uk/sites/default/...alleries/large/2015/11/09/1.png?itok=LmmopMtN

    The first hunger games movie came in 2012, and the Crystal Dynamics (An American developer) Tomb Raider game in 2013. So it occurs to me, there was a cynical "Make her like Katniss", on the behalf of the designers. Which, not for nothing, Lara Croft used to be her own thing prior to that point.

    This is why I haven't played the new games and am not watching the new Tomb Raider movie. If I want Katniss, I'll watch The Hunger Games.
     
  2. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Moderator

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    I don’t agree—at least not based on the new games. If you haven’t played them, how can your opinion be drawn from anything other than the superficial?
     
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  3. Annoyingkid

    Annoyingkid Mystagogue

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    I've seen how the modern lara croft acts in cutscenes viewable on youtube. And that's enough for me.
     
  4. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Moderator

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    That's poor argument, in my view, in that it is by definition superficial.

    Usually, the person making the affirmative argument has the burden to establish the proposition, prior to there being a need for rebuttal. There has been no establishment of the proposition here, so there's no need for rebuttal, but I'll give it a shot anyway.

    The reason I'll give it a shot is that I think this is something to do with female characters, and not something you hear said about the multitudes of male characters that share characteristics. Katniss and Lara both are both females, and both use bows. And, oh yeah Lara no longer has gargantuan boobs, so they're both alike in that regard. But unless we're going to say all women characters are the same, or all women characters who share a significant trait (bows, normal boobs) are the same, this seems to me to be a real stretch.

    First, let me get out of the way that I dislike Katniss--read the first book, saw the movies. Not a fan. I like new Lara, from the games.

    They're both skilled with a bow. Great. Unless every male character good with a sword is a clone of every other male character good with a sword, this means nothing.

    Lara, in the new games, is good with everything. Or at least gets that way. She has, early on, a vulnerability I'm not sure Katniss ever had, followed by a resolve that gets her through her problems. Katniss may be better with a bow than Lara--we could argue with that. But Lara is very good with guns, knives, hand-to-hand combat. She exhibits stealth and survival characteristics I don't think you see much from Katniss outside of a controlled environment. She has all of her acrobatic skills--Katniss doesn't. Her physical skill generally is completely distinct from Katniss.

    She has her knowledge of archaeology and other subjects that grow over time, allowing her to problem solve, particularly in the areas she's involved in since they lend themselves to that kind of problem solving. Katniss has none of this.

    On a superficial level--yeah. They have bows, there may be some similar dress in the movie versions, other aspects general to human life that may overlap. Beyond that, I don't think they're much the same.

    And unless you're making male characters with a few superficial similarities out to be the same, it sounds like the criticism is reserved for female characters.
     
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  5. CupofJoe

    CupofJoe Valar Lord

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    While I'm not going to wade in to discussion about a film I haven't seen and games I haven't played, I did see this:
    Tomb Raider review: How Lara Croft is the worst thing about her own movie
    I liked the first two Hunger Games films [not so much the last two]. As I though Katniss was a realistic character early on. She became flatter and more passive as the films went on [IMO].
    As for Lara Croft I kind of loved the Angelina Jolie films because they were big dumb films. You sat there and watched. You didn't have to care or think, just react and enjoy. The film equivalent of Candy-floss. Tasty, in no way filling and not a replacement for "real food".
    Not so much wading in, as paddling in the shallow end.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
  6. Annoyingkid

    Annoyingkid Mystagogue

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    If I have to play the game to figure out the difference, than they're too similar. Period.

    They're both exasperated desperate survivalists who look the same and now use the same combat methods. They're the same character. The old Lara not only had a different aesthetic, she used guns as her iconic weapons, not a bow and arrows, as well as having a confident swag personality. The idea that this is a criticism reserved for female characters, is nonsense, because if they made a male character that was a fusion of James Bond and Indiana Jones, and turned him into friggin Peeta or any other teen from the Hunger games I'd be saying the same thing. This is a cynical corporate move to make one character like the other.

    If you're going to accuse others of being superficial, you might want to get "Laura's" name right first.

    Why do I need to give them money and play their game when I can see the basics of Lara have been made like Katniss? By arguing the difference is in the details, you are conceding that any difference they have is a subtle one, that you have to play their whole game to figure out. Which just proves my point.

    It's supposed to be:
    Katniss = Exasperated survivalist teen with a bow.
    Lara = Highly trained femme fatale with twin pistols.

    In the original series, even as a teen, Lara's character was not this desperate stereotypical screaming, borderline weepy "realistic" teenage girl in perilous situations. Even as a teen, with a less mature body type, she still looked different to Katniss. So there's no excuse.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
  7. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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  8. Reaver

    Reaver Dune Lord Moderator

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    In the "original" series, Lara Croft is a grown woman. In fact, the only time she appears as a teen is in Tomb Raider: The Last Revelation. Even then, it's for a five minute flashback level of the game.

    On a different note, I wonder why you didn't mention Aloy from Horizon: Zero Dawn. Her story arc draws a closer parallel to Katniss'. For example: She's a master with a bow, she lives in a post apocalyptic world,. she's a master survivalist, she's smart...you get the idea.
    Have you had a chance to play this game?
     
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  9. pmmg

    pmmg Dark Lord

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    Well....just like in the creativity thread, sometimes people from different areas, with no real relation to each other, come up with similar Ideas. Could be they borrowed from each other, or it could be bad-ass babe with a bow is kind of trendy right now. And a lot of characters look the same. I have not seen the new Tomb Raider movie, but I was a big fan when the games were new. I have low expectations based on the preview I saw, but I feel I would like to see it before offering a real opinion in a thread like this.

    Oh, and clearly the difference is one is more prepared for an environment full of mosquitoes than the other. How could you not see that?
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
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  10. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Moderator

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    Even in the reboot of the games, she's never a teenager.

    The idea that Lara was born as some kind of highly-trained fighter in the first game is incorrect. In the first game, she was basically a luxury-softened rich girl until a plane crash at the age of 21 forced her to learn to survive in the Himalayas. That's the original 'origin' story. The new reboot of the game series takes you to what is essentially that point in her life, though they changed the specifics of what happens (e.g. it's a shipwreck, not a plane crash. Different geographic location). You're playing at a point in Lara's life that is broadly consistent with the original backstory from the first game.

    The idea that it doesn't count if you have to actually learn about something to understand the differences--well, not sure what to say about that...
     
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  11. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Moderator

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    Video game movies don't exactly have a great history, in terms of quality :)
     
  12. pmmg

    pmmg Dark Lord

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    Yes, but once in a while they do surprise.
     
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  13. Reaver

    Reaver Dune Lord Moderator

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    Ah, I know that story well. 1996. There I was, a young, lonely man, sitting at home on a Friday night with his Playstation, and the lovely Lara Croft, her dual 45's in hand, in all of her triangular, pixelated glory, running, jumping, back-flipping her way through bear, wolf, lion, and gorilla filled tombs, trying desperately to kill a T-rex with a f**king shotgun.

    I agree on this.
     
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