Which Mount is More Epic?

[Mindfire]

Originally I'd planned for a certain ethnic group to have horse-mounted archers as an integral part of its culture. But they had way too many similarities to the Dothraki, mostly due to my laziness (I'd pretty much copy-pasted the Mongols instead of putting in actual effort). Since then I've changed a lot about them to make them more unique, but I no longer want their culture to be horse related. For one thing, I already have a culture that takes pride in its horse breeders and for another, it's yet another Dothraki similarity I'd like to prune off. Plus, horses are just too mundane for these people. I want something more epic and slightly out of the ordinary. So with that in mind, which is more awesome:

Deer?

or Lion?

Of course, there's more than just awesomeness to be considered. There has to be a pretense of practicality. Both animals have advantages and disadvantages.

Deer would obviously be easier to tame and easier to feed. The riders could just let their mounts graze rather than having to waste time and resources on getting them meat every day. Deer would also be more agile, a valuable trait in a mount. They have natural weapons in the form of antlers, and they are not likely to spook their master's herd of livestock. However, a deer is also more likely to want to flee from battle and it would take a lot to breed and train that response out of the animal, provided I don't just make the deer species incredibly brave to begin with. Deer also might not have the musculature to carry a heavy human being, although again this can be fixed with the rule of "because I say so."

Lions also have advantages: stronger, fiercer, natural weapons in the form of claws and teeth, and with proper training they could make powerful combatants even independent of their riders. It would also speak volumes about the nature of the culture that they've managed to domesticate lions. But that's one of the disadvantages. Domesticated, ride-able lions strain SOD more so than deer. They would be far harder to tame, train, and cooperate with. They might also take more resources to feed. You would either have to give the lion meat from your own livestock (probably not the best arrangement) or let it out periodically to hunt for itself, which kinda defeats the purpose of domestication and seems counterproductive. Plus it would spook livestock constantly if not kill them. It just seems like it might be slightly more difficult to work with over all.

What do you all think?

 

[Graylorne]

I would go for deer. Perhaps a reindeer, they are being ridden, after all. Besides it's a more natural thing to do, something that would evolve in a herder people.

A lion is in larger numbers untenable, I'd think. Besides they would never ever be trustworthy. I could see a special corps, a King's Guard or some such riding lions to impress, but as regular forces they seem more trouble than they'd be worth.

But logic doesn't really fit fantasy, so if you want lions, go ahead. Just make up a good story how it came about.

 

[Mindfire]

To clarify, I'm thinking the deer might be something around the size of the giant "Irish Elk" in order to justify how they can carry human riders.

Also, it seems we have two late entries, the terror birds phorusrhachos longissimus and kelenken guillermoi.

A size chart for comparison with an average human:

Could a large flightless bird offer a happy medium between the lion's strength and ferocity and the deer's agility and pliability?

 

[Jabrosky]

^ Terror birds for the win, I say! They're almost like Velociraptors in a way!

 

[Ophiucha]

Deer are, like, my favourite animal, so I am biased.

The way lions fight is also not overly compatible with having a human on their backs. Their torso is going to be twisting and turning, and even when they run it's going to be a heck of a bumpy ride compared to an animal like a deer (or a horse). I'm not sure I could avoid puking if I was on a large cat when it decide to leap twenty feet forward. At the very least you'd get whiplash. From an aesthetic perspective, there is also the fact that female lions are better hunters, and hence wouldn't have the pretty manes. And they are the sort of animals that can run really fast for like a minute instead of run moderately fast for like an hour, the latter of which is probably more useful for riding around.

 

[Devor]

It's all been done before.

Lions and the other big cats are built for short boosts of speed, not galloping steadily for long distances. I could see using them as shock troops to defend certain locations, but expecting them to meet the needs of an army strains believability, especially if your characters travel with them and you paint that picture in detail for the reader.

 

[Ireth]

I vote for deer as well, especially that Irish elk Mindfire mentioned.

 

[Ophiucha]

Since you specified the size of the deer, I'd also point out that your feet would probably touch the ground if you tried to ride around on an African lion. Go prehistoric for that one, too. And I'm pretty sure there are people in the world who ride ostriches, so I don't see anything wrong with having a bird mount. The fact that they could attack without you either falling off of their backs or being crushed underneath them is also beneficial.

Plus, I second Jabrosky's velociraptor comparison. Raptors are awesome.

 

[Graylorne]

To clarify, I'm thinking the deer might be something along the size of the giant "Irish Elk" in order to justify how they can carry human riders.

Also, it seems we have two late entries, the terror birds phorusrhachos longissimus and kelenken guillermoi.


A size chart for comparison with an average human:

Could a large flightless bird offer a happy medium between the lion's strength and ferocity and the deer's agility and pliability?

If you have these beasties, you need more types for a viable biosphere. Is your society adapted to these beasts? If they're not there as a matter of course, it's getting rather, well, hard to explain.

 

[Mindfire]

I would thank you all for your contribution, but apparently I'm at my daily rep limit. So consider this a thank you until my rep battery recharges.

 

[Mindfire]

If you have these beasties, you need more types for a viable biosphere. Is your society adapted to these beasts? If they're not there as a matter of course, it's getting rather, well, hard to explain.

Could you elaborate?

 

[Devor]

Could you elaborate?

I think he means, it's not enough to have one animal and just use it as a mount. There's different subspecies of lion and other big cats, for instance, so if you included a big ostrich bird as a mount, you would need to include many versions of them in the wild, likely as distinct as a dog from a wolf or a pig from a boar.

That said . . . there are no wild horses. Just a few populations descended from feral ones. So, there's that.

 

[Caged Maiden]

One thing I'd like to bring up... animal nature. When the British colonized Africa, some nobles thought it would be spectacular to have zebras pull their coaches. Know why it never caught on? Because Zebras aren't tame horses. They're wild asses and stubborn and uninterested in being harnessed. they couldn't make them pull a coach. SO after many failed attempts at domesticating the zebra into a pack animal, the British gave up and went back to the good old reliable horse.

If I'm remembering correctly, Mongols rode Steppe Ponies, hardy, rugged animals that had amazing stamina. When talking about horses, a horse is not just a horse. Each breed has a specific purose it was designed for and they accomplish their jobs well, but you can't mix and match.

Why don't we use thoroughbreds for mounted archery? Think about it, fast long legs, sleek bodies.. they could certainly cover ground fast and haul the modest weight of a rider with light armor. But have you ever seen a racehorse? I've seen some really fast ones... that are absolutely psycho. THey flinch at every noise, jump at every movement and are skittish creatures good for only one thing, racing. I'd rather shoot off the back of a nice Belgian Draft Horse or Clydesdale.. Now that's a consistent plodder!

Okay now onto the other animals...

Deer re skittish. They jump and flinch and twitch at every sound. Why? Because they're prey animals. Everything in the world eats them. Also, the smell of man is terror to a deer. It's been bred into them to fear man because the ones who did lived and the ones who didn't were eaten long ago. Sort of like the wolves who came too close to men and became domesticated dogs. Wolves would also be a terrible mount, fundamentally.

Deer, while having the stamina and body to be a good ride, might be too skittish. If you were to make a sort of deer, I'd make a completely new kind, like the Irish Elk idea.

Lions... Lions don't have stamina. They have strength. While wolves are the best runners in the animal kingdom, often outrunning their prey until the moose just lays down from exhaustion and dies, lionesses lay in wait and pounce on their prey. Cats are not made to run and don't have the skeletal structure to do it. With the exception of the cheetah (which is only made for bursts of speed, not distance running) no cats outrun their prey, they ambush it. I'd think the lion is a poor choice for so many reasons. Also, where dogs are pack animals and social, therefore accepting a man as pack leader, a lion has no respect for anything that can't kill it. Lions would be terribly dangerous to control and work closely with. look at all the people who are killed by captive cats. They're dangerous. THeir entire demeanor is about self rather than pack.

Okay, now let's look at the deer again. The reason horses are so useful is that they've been bred for thousands of years to be what we want them to be. If you did that with a lion, you'd get something still half-wild and probably mostly insane. If you did it with the deer, you might get something pretty cool...

When Russian fur traders bred foxes for their fur, they thought, "Hang on a minute... People are getting bit by these vicious little beasties, why don't we breed only the foxes that are most tame?" SO they did. They selected only the friendliest foxes and began breeding them in hopes of coming up with a tame version of the fox that would be easier to handle and therefore make fur farming easier. But within six or eight generations... something unusual happened.

The foxes looked like pet dogs!!! Yep. After generations and generations of fur farming, with no hitches, their breeding program produced fox-dogs when they selected only pleasant, friendly, peopled individuals. The foxes had floppy ears, spotted coats and began looking like domesticated dogs. SO they gave them away as pets and abandoned the breeding program.

Now, I'm not sure wht breeding deer for domesticability would lead to, but you might want to play with that a little. Imagine if you bred deer for specific traits, like calm, bulk and intelligence. You might get something really interesting. Perhaps try making a sort of spotted deer, like an apaloosa horse. That might be really neat. Or maybe one with floppy ears or a long curly tail. I'd just suggest making it look much less a white-tailed deer as an indicator these animals are removed from their wild cousins and somehow changed through selective breeding. I think that would be the easiest way for you to make a convincing argument that the deer were domesticated over time and you can infuse any traits into them you want then.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Another note about deer... I think they're bounders. Not gallopers. That might be a real big problem for a rider, especially one who is trying to shoot arrows.

 

[Caged Maiden]

What about something like a wildabeest? Make something elst liek that. It's a galloper, has amazing stamina, eats the worst quality food and is very calm and steady. That would be a good mount and have a very distinct look.

 

[Graylorne]

I think he means, it's not enough to have one animal and just use it as a mount. There's different subspecies of lion and other big cats, for instance, so if you included a big ostrich bird as a mount, you would need to include many versions of them in the wild, likely as distinct as a dog from a wolf or a pig from a boar.

That said . . . there are no wild horses. Just a few populations descended from feral ones. So, there's that.

That's more or less what I meant. Must admit I was thinking more in the saurii line than ostriches, because I thought of something verocious. Ostriches don't affect your society, meat-eating raptors do.

I'm now remembering my years in World of Warcraft. No idea how exact they are, but I found the troll raptor mounts the most uncomfortable ride possible, with those bloodelf ostriches second, so I am biased!

 

[Nihal]

I like deer. I'm using a variant of deer in my story. I'm going by what Caged Maiden advised, creating my own specie and breeding. They're bigger and heavier than common deer, but still slimmer than horses, having way less stamina. I'm also using mounted archers.

If I recall it correctly the Mongols timed their firing with the moment when the horse's hooves were on the ground. It's pure speculation, but for me in this case, it wouldn't be so different with deer. You would have to learn to take in account how the bounds would affect your aim. I'm sure it would be kinda annoying to mount a deer, have you ever mounted a horse that only trots? Probably the same thing, but in larger scale and slower motion.

 

[Mindfire]

About bounding/galloping, I've just been watching some footage and it seems to me that smaller deer species like the white-tail do bound, while larger species, like caribou, elk, and moose, tend to gallop. Or at least do something similar to a gallop. And the issue with the wildebeest is that it's adapted to a warm climate. I'm looking for a cooler climate animal.

 

[Saigonnus]

Why have a "real world" mount in a fantasy setting?... if you want them to ride a hippogriff or chimera, whose to say you cannot? If a real world creature just doesn't seem epic enough, make something up that would be more suitable for the tribe to use. Why not a mammoth? You want cold weather, fairly fast and strong creature, what better than something that size? Who needs speed when you could armor the heck out of it and be somewhat invulnerable to most attacks?

 

[Mindfire]

Why have a "real world" mount in a fantasy setting?... if you want them to ride a hippogriff or chimera, whose to say you cannot? If a real world creature just doesn't seem epic enough, make something up that would be more suitable for the tribe to use. Why not a mammoth? You want cold weather, fairly fast and strong creature, what better than something that size? Who needs speed when you could armor the heck out of it and be somewhat invulnerable to most attacks?

I did consider mammoths, actually. I'm still considering them. But something about them doesn't quite "click" with my vision of this culture.