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World building (4 years after the first post)

Meyer

Minstrel
Link to the 2013 post for anyone interested. https://mythicscribes.com/forums/world-building/7884-justifying-firearms-fantasy-setting.html

Short version: Life happened in a bad way, I did actually write around 40,00 words, realized I started the story in the wrong spot, and dropped it for a bit. I keep dwelling on it and over the past year gutted many elements. So now I need to make sure the current concept is credible and coherent.

The opening takes place in a nation that is relatively removed from the rest of the world by an ocean to the north, a mountain range to the south and most of the east (the lone pass is walled up), and by a stretch of desert/low value land to the west. Some 150~ years ago said nation experienced a major revolution that led to the traditional order of things being turned on its head. The dominant religious power and its militant orders were overthrown and destroyed along with any trace of magic. The nation is still a monarchy, but the current ruler now stylizes himself as an emperor and any dissent is quickly squashed. For the most part this has been a success. Provincial rulers retain a degree of leniency and are wealthy. Those in the border watch and Inquisition are well paid and enjoy a higher status. There is also now an ingrained xenophobia, fear of magic, and the population is split between those with no interest in religion and those who still worship.

At the time of the story this nation is experiencing its first major civil war. The rebels are led by a man with magical powers who is being decried as a demon/blasphemer, but few have encountered him and few of his followers possess any magical ability, so the general populace still sees magic as myth.

A key point I may have skipped is that firearms are ubiquitous. Mid to late 19th century technology worldwide, so things such as telegraphs, electricity are coming in to play through out parts of the world. This particular nation is a bit behind due to being isolated, but no more than a few decades.

Firearms are a great equalizer in many ways, but:

1) Magic is always easier to conceal. A rifle stands out and pistols lack range/stopping power.
2) Magic is rare (globally) and powerful. There are multiple ways for a mage to counter a firearm in a group setting, ie cloud the enemy's vision, stop/deflect/dodge/redirect a bullet (this is extremely difficult to do against even one bullet, let alone a volley), conjure an energy shield capable of stopping bullets, pull the guns out opponents hands (difficult), or use enchanted armor that is stronger than the standard fare.

Still, only an exceptional mage will be able to withstand multiple riflemen. Even magic users will at times use firearms.

Back to the story.

The civil war has reached the point where a "more neutral" province is requesting outside intervention to end the bloodshed. This ruler engages in black market trade with foreign powers and is concerned with the loss of income. An organization that serves as something of a global police force/witch hunters tasks two men to investigate the situation and report back as to its severity. The fear is that the civil war may being caused by an unseen enemy as the prelude to something greater or that the collapse of this nation could lead to an invasion that would result in a power shift.

The mission of the two watchers quickly takes a turn for the worst when they arrive and are informed that the Emperor has been seeking the aid of occultists in defeating the rebels. Something went wrong and one of these occultists went rogue with either information or an artifact of significance (its not clear) in his possession. In his wake are numerous dead, killed clearly by magical means.

They track down the occultist (while witnessing the aftermath of a battle and abuse of refugees) only to discover he his dead in a similar manner before hearing of more strange deaths in a mountain town. The investigation continues to there where too many major plot events occur to spill here.

TLDR:

How viable is it for nation to go from being connected to the rest of the world to heavily isolated in 150-200 years? (To the point where many believe the rest of the world is in chaos and savages run wild)

Are my ideas for magic countering firearms sufficient? Magic v firearms would only occur a handful of times in this story and not many more later on.

Is the initial lead in interesting enough for a reader? Assuming it is well written of course.
 

CupofJoe

Myth Weaver
How viable is it for nation to go from being connected to the rest of the world to heavily isolated in 150-200 years? (To the point where many believe the rest of the world is in chaos and savages run wild)
More than enough time. 20-40 years could be enough to do most of the work but if you have a time when not even the stories of the grandparents can be remembered, then the people that write the school/history books will have it all sown up.

Are my ideas for magic countering firearms sufficient? Magic v firearms would only occur a handful of times in this story and not many more later on.
The balance between magic/non-magic is always going to be tricky. Which side do you want to "win"? From the sounds of it Magic is on the way out. As soon as some devises a Gatling type weapon all the magic users will soon be ex-magic users.
Is the initial lead in interesting enough for a reader? Assuming it is well written of course.[/QUOTE]
As you say... It would depend on how its written... The best premise can be thrown away with bad execution, the most mundane soar when written spectacularly.
 

Horus

Scribe
The balance between magic/non-magic is always going to be tricky. Which side do you want to "win"? From the sounds of it Magic is on the way out. As soon as some devises a Gatling type weapon all the magic users will soon be ex-magic users.

I wouldn't be so sure about this. It all depends on how you do magic in your world. If mages cast via long incantations, firearms are going to win out in any spontaneous battle. However if magic can be quickly executed with a gesture/thought, firearms will most likely lose, if the scope of what someone can do with magic is large enough. If a mage can generate a shield capable of stopping bullets, magic wins.

I have a similar problem in my setting, and I wrote a short story with a mage lecturing a group of aspiring mages on this very issue. He concluded that mages would always be the ultimate power, until a technology was developed that allowed mortals to fight a mage without ever being within visual range (essentially over the horizon weaponry/long distance rifles). Rifles are not a thing in my setting, because the rifling process hasn't been discovered yet. This conclusion is reached only because it is easy to fail at getting a fatal shot/miss with firearms. Even if repeating rifles become possible, mages are still able to generate shields, manipulate light into illusions, control peoples minds, and animate the dead (which are impossible to kill with standard firearms).

Can mages in this setting create constructs? Firearms kill by causing damage to vital organs, or causing the person to bleed to death. If you can't hit a vital organ, firearms aren't effective. Firearms prior to smokeless gunpowder and jacketing of ammo, were prone to malfunctions. They were hard to reload to. In war, if a mage can make it rain... he just made life complicated for the riflemen. If he can create large dense fog, then riflemen will be damn near useless.
 
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Meyer

Minstrel
More than enough time. 20-40 years could be enough to do most of the work but if you have a time when not even the stories of the grandparents can be remembered, then the people that write the school/history books will have it all sown up.


The balance between magic/non-magic is always going to be tricky. Which side do you want to "win"? From the sounds of it Magic is on the way out. As soon as some devises a Gatling type weapon all the magic users will soon be ex-magic users.

As you say... It would depend on how its written... The best premise can be thrown away with bad execution, the most mundane soar when written spectacularly.


Neither actually.

Only one nation utilizes magic moreso than others. The most powerful nation makes use of relatively advanced technology and magic. Some of their more notable forces are heavy magic users/individuals modified by magic. So it's not really one or another, it's about striking a believable balance where neither one necessarily overpowers the other. Ultimately the strongest and most influential characters are high level mages.
 

Meyer

Minstrel
I wouldn't be so sure about this. It all depends on how you do magic in your world. If mages cast via long incantations, firearms are going to win out in any spontaneous battle. However if magic can be quickly executed with a gesture/thought, firearms will most likely lose, if the scope of what someone can do with magic is large enough. If a mage can generate a shield capable of stopping bullets, magic wins.

I have a similar problem in my setting, and I wrote a short story with a mage lecturing a group of aspiring mages on this very issue. He concluded that mages would always be the ultimate power, until a technology was developed that allowed mortals to fight a mage without ever being within visual range (essentially over the horizon weaponry/long distance rifles). Rifles are not a thing in my setting, because the rifling process hasn't been discovered yet. This conclusion is reached only because it is easy to fail at getting a fatal shot/miss with firearms. Even if repeating rifles become possible, mages are still able to generate shields, manipulate light into illusions, control peoples minds, and animate the dead (which are impossible to kill with standard firearms).

Can mages in this setting create constructs? Firearms kill by causing damage to vital organs, or causing the person to bleed to death. If you can't hit a vital organ, firearms aren't effective. Firearms prior to smokeless gunpowder and jacketing of ammo, were prone to malfunctions. They were hard to reload to. In war, if a mage can make it rain... he just made life complicated for the riflemen. If he can create large dense fog, then riflemen will be damn near useless.

It is more spontaneous. Done by thought. Some alterations require more preparation (such as resurrection, which is rarely done, if ever) and more focus.

Something like altering the weather would be difficult on a larger scale. Creating a fog of war is a good idea.

I really divide into these categories:

Alter self: Improve reaction time, strength, speed, endurance, healing capabilities, perception, etc
Alter other: Same as above essentially
Alter item: Mainly improving the durability of a given item, sharpening its edge, similar things
Alter world: More traditional spells, call lightning, fire balls, things like that

What magic is, at its most basic level, is the ability to change the world state at a molecular level, but it is more frequently taught from the more common perspective of spell casting. Surpassing that level takes a great deal of mental discipline and innate understanding of reality. Anything can be done, but it can only be done once you believe that.
 
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