Follow-up discussion to "Female armour in fantasy books/games"

[saellys]

This thread got way off-topic and Reaver closed it down accordingly, but the discussion was really interesting (and far more civil than most I've encountered on the Internet). So here's a thread to discuss the broader topic of representation of women in media, with an emphasis on the fantasy genre since that is, after all, why we're here. Reaver gave me the go-ahead for a new thread, with the caveat that the mods will be watching closely, so let's maintain the level of respectful intellectual discourse we had in the previous thread, shall we?

For newcomers to the discussion, here's a list of salient points and research links so you don't have to wade through eleven pages.

The thread began with a link to this blog post by an armorer, discussing the practicality of armor that covers "lady bits". Contributors pointed out that lots of women would have to wrap or otherwise compress their breasts to fit beneath flat armor, or even to fight at all with full range of motion.

Women Fighters In Reasonable Armor and OtherWorld Miniatures' female concept art got cited as positive examples of characters who present as female and wear appropriate protection for the types of combat they do. Real-life, modern day professional jousters Virginia Hankins and Jessica Post, both of whom wear full plate, were also referenced, along with the titular characters' armor in the recent reimagined films Alice In Wonderland and Snow White and the Huntsman.

Anders Amting made this post comparing female armor in Skyrim with a user-created mod. Thus began the discussion of fantasy's "target audience" wanting particular things from female characters in their media. Some contributors pointed out that since it's fantasy, it really didn't matter and the creators could justify doing whatever they wanted with character design. Others responded that that was all well and good, but the overwhelming majority of female characters in a fantasy setting that was illustrated in some way were depicted wearing impractical or nonexistent armor.

We talked a lot about the male gaze and the double standard of sexualizing female characters, but not male. (If you were about to post that men are sexualized too, they're not.) The target audience of the fantasy genre and media like comic books and video games was generally agreed to be male, but I posited that wouldn't be the case if more women saw themselves represented realistically in these media.

Here's a brief summing up of why this is important in two posts from late in the thread:

Female armor in fantasy is revealing and unpractical!? Oh my, what a revelation! When has anything in fantasy been practical, isn't that the point!? A good-looking female body is better looking in an outfit that highlights sexual features, the same with men. This thread is a bit confusing to be honest, the correlation between real-world gender issues and fantasy literature is a bit strange, in my opinion. Why not let the sparsely-clad heroin be an object of desire, or the muscled barbarian (with rugged good looks of course) be just that, fantasy. I find it odd that anyone would really consider these images offensive, when it is pure fantasy that compels such a thing in the first place.

Fantasy as a genre is, like all other forms of media we consume, a reflection of attitudes real people have in the real world. Oversexualizing the female body in any context is a symptom of problematic attitudes toward women in general. When it happens in the fantasy genre, it's usually at the expense of character development, and poor character developments makes for a poor reader experience that isn't balanced out by a nice pair of boobies in a mailkini.

I consider the images problematic mainly because it perpetuates the idea that I am not welcome as either a reader or creator because fantasy/comic books/video games/etc. is for men only, and that my entire gender exists in these stories only to be sexualized and ogled.

Now, let the discussion continue!

 

[Xaysai]

I didn't read the other thread, so pardon me if this is irrelevant or has been covered.

I feel that it's all about escapism.

Male characters are portrayed as powerful (Gandolf, Elminster, Zedd, etc) or handsome (Jaime Lannister), or the equivalent of our testosterone laden alter-ego (Logen Ninefingers, Black Dow, etc).

Couldn't you argue that the same has been done for women?

 

[saellys]

I didn't read the other thread, so pardon me if this is irrelevant or has been covered.

I feel that it's all about escapism.

Male characters are portrayed as powerful (Gandolf, Elminster, Zedd, etc) or handsome (Jaime Lannister), or the equivalent of our testosterone laden alter-ego (Logen Ninefingers, Black Dow, etc).

Couldn't you argue that the same has been done for women?

This hasn't been covered, actually. In my experience, it is extremely rare to find a female character portrayed with the same range of possibilities male characters enjoy. I can't name a female character as powerful as Gandalf, as attractive as Jaime Lannister with an equal level of proficiency and experience (part of his arc was that he became somewhat of a Barristan Selmy replacement upon his return to the Kingsguard), or as much of a bloodthirsty berzerker as Logen.

 

[Steerpike]

I nominate The Lady, from the Black Company. She'd kick Gandalf's butt in a fight with magic, is tremendously beautiful, and a lot of blood is shed at her command

I think the problem becomes more apparent when you look solely at visual media. I agree that the disparity is there, and I think it is ingrained strongly in the culture about comics/graphic novels and gaming. You can find some interesting reports from women at cons, for example. On the one hand, you might argue the nature of the media attracts an audience that is more likely to be hostile to women; on the other hand you can argue that the media itself has some degree of causal effect. In either case, I think it is safe to say the issue isn't an imaginary one.

 

[Xaysai]

This hasn't been covered, actually. In my experience, it is extremely rare to find a female character portrayed with the same range of possibilities male characters enjoy. I can't name a female character as powerful as Gandalf, as attractive as Jaime Lannister with an equal level of proficiency and experience (part of his arc was that he became somewhat of a Barristan Selmy replacement upon his return to the Kingsguard), or as much of a bloodthirsty berzerker as Logen.

There are examples. However, I will grant you, probably not as prominent (which is where the argument may lie).

Monza Murcatto in Best Served Cold. Brienne from Song of Ice and Fire. Daenerys Targaryen. Anita Blake. Kahlan Amnell in SoT.

I think you find more in Paranormal Romance.

Do you think this is because historically women are "more likely" to read PR and men are "more likely" to read Fantasy?

 

[Butterfly]

I found a list

Top 25 Fantasy Books for Women

 

[Steerpike]

I found a list

Top 25 Fantasy Books for Women

I've only read 8 of them. I saw they mentioned Kristin Cashore's Graceling, which is an excellent book. If I might suggest it, her second novel Fire is even better and also has a good female protag.

 

[Butterfly]

I shall put it on my 'to read list.'

 

[Steerpike]

I shall put it on my 'to read list.'

It's considered YA or teen, just so you know (in case that doesn't interest you). I thought the book was great, though.

 

[saellys]

There are examples. However, I will grant you, probably not as prominent (which is where the argument may lie).

Monza Murcatto in Best Served Cold. Brienne from Song of Ice and Fire. Daenerys Targaryen. Anita Blake. Kahlan Amnell in SoT.

I think you find more in Paranormal Romance.

Do you think this is because historically women are "more likely" to read PR and men are "more likely" to read Fantasy?

I haven't read the non-Martin examples so I can't speak to that, but I'll add them to my reading list. Brienne is described many times over as phenomenally ugly, though she is roughly Jaime's match for skill, if not experience. Daenerys will, I think, end up being among the most powerful and well-rounded female characters in fantasy. Where ASOIAF stands now, she has yet to come into her own.

I found a list

Top 25 Fantasy Books for Women

I'm going to make a point to read as many of these as I can find. I am, however, mildly disappointed to find The Lions of Al-Rassan in the top five. Something was bugging me through the first two acts, and I finally realized that Jehane was a plot point. She never actually accomplished anything, or set anything in motion, and I was left with the suspicion that Kay created her (consciously or otherwise) just to humanize his beloved Ammar.

 

[saellys]

It's considered YA or teen, just so you know (in case that doesn't interest you). I thought the book was great, though.

I forgot to bring this up in the old thread, but I think YA is the most innovative field of literature going right now, particularly where female protagonists are concerned.

 

[Xaysai]

I haven't read the non-Martin examples so I can't speak to that, but I'll add them to my reading list. Brienne is described many times over as phenomenally ugly, though she is roughly Jaime's match for skill, if not experience. Daenerys will, I think, end up being among the most powerful and well-rounded female characters in fantasy. Where ASOIAF stands now, she has yet to come into her own.



I'm going to make a point to read as many of these as I can find. I am, however, mildly disappointed to find The Lions of As-Rassan in the top five. Something was bugging me through the first two acts, and I finally realized that Jehane was a plot point. She never actually accomplished anything, or set anything in motion, and I was left with the suspicion that Kay created her (consciously or otherwise) just to humanize his beloved Ammar.

I was using Brienne as a counter to Logen or Black Dow, which if you haven't read any Joe Abercrombie, are characters that aren't going to win any beauty contests, but will kick your ass. And the ass of the guy next to you.

I completely forgot about the Aunt in the Codex Alera. She's an asskicker, but I don't think she was the beautiful type.

 

[Butterfly]

I'd recommend the Deverry cycle. Although there are loads of them.

 

[saellys]

I keep missing posts!

I nominate The Lady, from the Black Company. She'd kick Gandalf's butt in a fight with magic, is tremendously beautiful, and a lot of blood is shed at her command

Sounds like a hoss! I'll check the series out.

I think the problem becomes more apparent when you look solely at visual media. I agree that the disparity is there, and I think it is ingrained strongly in the culture about comics/graphic novels and gaming. You can find some interesting reports from women at cons, for example. On the one hand, you might argue the nature of the media attracts an audience that is more likely to be hostile to women; on the other hand you can argue that the media itself has some degree of causal effect. In either case, I think it is safe to say the issue isn't an imaginary one.

I think both possibilities are a factor, and they build on each other and add up to some of the truly reprehensible stuff that has happened at cons, or the reaction Anita Sarkeesian received when she started a Kickstarter to fund a series of videos about how women are portrayed in videogames.

 

[saellys]

I was using Brienne as a counter to Logen or Black Dow, which if you haven't read any Joe Abercrombie, are characters that aren't going to win any beauty contests, but will kick your ass. And the ass of the guy next to you.

Duly noted!

 

[Mindfire]

I nominate The Lady, from the Black Company. She'd kick Gandalf's butt in a fight with magic, is tremendously beautiful, and a lot of blood is shed at her command

But Gandalf is like... a god.

 

[Mindfire]

I completely forgot about the Aunt in the Codex Alera. She's an asskicker, but I don't think she was the beautiful type.

Spoiler: Codex Alera

Princeps Septimus seemed to think so.

 

[Xaysai]

But Gandalf is like... a god.

I think The Lady is actually a demigod.

 

[Steerpike]

I think The Lady is actually a demigod.

Yeah.

Mindfire, if you've never read the Black Company what I can tell you is that the power level of magic in those books is orders of magnitude higher than what is in LotR. The Lady wouldn't even break a sweat taking Gandalf down

 

[Ireth]

One thing to note about the Wizards/Istari in LOTR, i.e. Gandalf and Saruman, was that they actually put some pretty heavy limits on their own power when they entered Middle-earth. Take away those limitations, and you have some very powerful demigods/angels.