Ask me about Wine.

[Sheilawisz]

Wine has a long and fascinating history in the real world, and today I was thinking: "Maybe some other writers have included wine in their Fantasy worlds, or they have it already- They could want to know more about the history and everything related to the wine world, so they can portray it in a very realistic way".

After having these thoughts, I decided to start this new thread to offer my own expertise in everything related to the vast and complex world of wine... you can ask me anything that you want to know about wine, from the long history of wine in our world to the modern wine industry. The different varieties of the Vitis Vinifera and other Vitis that are also used to make wines, the inventions that are related to the wine world, what the wines were like in past centuries, the best wine regions, what the Vitis Vinifera needs to grow well, the different kind of works performed at Vineyards across the year and everything that you could think of =)

Wine could be important especially for Fantasy stories with a Medieval or European style setting, but it could be a significant part of other different cultures as well.

 

[Aidan of the tavern]

I'm sure you would be the first to agree with me that wine gets very bad press coverage today compared with 500 years ago.

One thing which intrigues me is how ye olde brewers would have kept things sterile. They didn't exactly have chemical formulars as we know them to use, so what would the typical sterilization have been?

 

[ascanius]

that's easy, the same concept was used in making wine as that used in making cheese, out competition. provide the yeast with an ideal environment so that they thrive and grow consuming more and more resources. Those same resources are no longer available to other microorganisms thus their population dwindles. Also alcohol inhibits the microbial growth that leads to spoilage, to a point. But of course basic sanitary measures were probably taken, washing hands, making sure things were clean, or boiling the tools used. But most likely the yeast simply out competed the other microorganisms. Having a large volume also helps it gives more room for error and contamination. 100 gal of grape juice, must, can tolerate a dirty hand much better than 6 gal can. So most likely nothing was sterilized, it would have been impossible even today sterilizing something is easier said than done. They simply used the yeast to their advantage and knew how to cultivate it.
It is kinda cool that people without any knowledge of microbiology were able to grasp concepts that are still used today.

Sheilawisz two questions. First what were the early wines like? were they as palatable as they are today or were they rough to drink. And my second question and I hope you get this right. which is better Italian wine or French?
Ok the question might be loaded but I'm just curious. Oh one other thing? were grafts ever used when cultivating the vine? or is that more of a modern thing? In Italy grafts are rarely used, at least from what I saw. however I read that in California that is almost all that is used.

 

[Sheilawisz]

@Aidan: Grapes are the only fruit that has a natural tendency to start fermentation thanks to natural yeasts present in grape skins, which means that wine can be made even with wild grapes and very basic methods without sterilization =) Controlling every single aspect of wine making is really part of the modern wine industry, they did not really care a lot about that in past centuries beyond normal hygiene procedures and so on.

@Ascanius: Early wines could range from spontaneous wine production (from some wild grape juice that someone left somewhere for some days!!) to a more controlled wine production in the vineyards, but generally these early wines were not at all like the wines that we know and love today!! They were not clarified and not filtered like they are now, so you could think of them as some form of wilder and harsher wines =)

Italy and France both produce an unimaginable variety of wines ranging from cheap table wines to Wine Legends (like Barolo in Italy and Petrus in France) so you cannot compare a country versus another country, just like that- It would be more accurate to compare a specific region with another specific region, even inside the same country.

Grafts in the Vineyards are very common in the world today, because they were used to rescue the European vineyards after the Phylloxera disaster destroyed most of them in the 19th Century. They used Vitis Labrusca roots to help the Vitis Vinifera grow again, and today very few vineyards in the world have Vitis Vinifera varieties just like they were before the Phylloxera.

Chilean Vineyards never got the Phylloxera, so they are among the few in the world today without such grafts =)

 

[Ravana]

wine gets very bad press coverage

Oh, dear, am I really the first person to spot the pun involved there?

 

[Ravana]

which is better Italian wine or French?

German.

As Sheilawisz said, the variation among individual wines, even of the same type, is so great it comes down to a matter of taste. Well, mostly. The table wine commonly consumed by the French is execrable by most other people's standards–all the good stuff gets exported (or at least bought by the more expensive restaurants in the country). Which will also be largely true of many other nations' wines. German white wines seem to be a bit of an exception: while they may not top anybody's connoisseur list, they are fairly consistent in terms of being drinkable.

Tastes do vary, though. Fond though I am of dry still whites (I despise sparkling wines of any sort, apart from some of the better grades of champagne), I did once have a bottle of Yugoslavian wine that ought to have been labeled "To serve, just add water." And once upon a time while working at a grocery store, I had someone ask me–in all seriousness–what wine went best with hot dogs. Without even thinking, I answered "Coke." (After which I gave an answer that would allow the store to sell a bottle of wine. But I damn well never would have served any wine with hot dogs myself.)

 

[Devor]

The table wine commonly consumed by the French is execrable by most other people's standards—all the good stuff gets exported (or at least bought by the more expensive restaurants in the country). Which will also be largely true of many other nations' wines.

We studied beer in my International Marketing class, and the opposite tends to be true for beer. Most heavily exported beers tend to have a poor reputation in their home country.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hey everyone =) @Aidan: Thanks to Ravana I finally get your joke about the press coverage of wine, it was great!! Sorry, sometimes I do not get this kind of puns immediately because I am not a native English speaker... I am still laughing, thanks.

@Ravana: German wines are very different to the wines from the Mediterranean world because, as I am sure you know, the more northern location and colder weather are better suited to the production of high quality white wines. The same happens with the little-known wines of Switzerland and Austria- These colder countries produce some very remarkable and famous wines, but most of the exported German wines are a lower quality and sells very cheap in many countries.

German quality levels as they appear in bottles:

1- Tafelwein: the lowest level, common table wines. When the label includes also the word Deutscher it means that the wine comes from a German vineyard, otherwise it comes from foreign vineyards and it's simply bottled in Germany.

2- Landwein: These are like the best of all the Tafelwein category.

3- Qualitatswein eines bestimmten Anbaugebiete (QbA): The first level that indicates a higher quality wine, pointing to a specific region of the country.

4- Qualitatswein mit Pradikat (QmP): These are the higher quality wines, without chaptalization.

There are other catogories like the famous Eiswein wines, but those four are the most important ones that you need to know when you buy a German wine =)

@Devor: That's true, but a few of the macrobrewed and most exported beers are very high quality, like the Belgian Duvel.

For those interested in having vineyards and wine production in your Fantasy stories:

If your world or countries have mountains, northern latitude and cold weather, white grapes can adjust better and so most of the wines produced would be white wines. A warmer country similar to the Mediterranean would produce more red wines, but there are other factors to be considered like the type of soil and other things =)

 

[ascanius]

I'm curious about your opinions on Malbec. I recently got a bottle and found if very good. I was told that this variety of grape is only grown in....I can't remember, I want to say Argentina but I'm not sure.
As to the question which is better. I am sorry but I am biased, the Italian wines are better. Give me a good Valpolicella any day over a french wine, or an Amarone, Barbera. All grown in the vineyards around my grandmothers house, except the Barbera. I have yet to have a french wine that is better, and I have had some good ones, but I compare these to a spectacular Valpolicella I had four years ago. I will admit that I am so biased partly because the commercial misrepresentation of so called Italian wines. Please, I saw a TV commercial advertising an Italian cabernet sauvignon, or am I the only one who sees the problem. Chianti is Italian, cabernet sauvignon is not nor are Merlot, and many others.

What about growing in very dry climates such as in the middle east. What are their wines like? What about growing the vines. I know the basics about growing the vine but would their be anything done differently that would need to be considered in such a climate.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Malbec is actually a French variety of Vitis Vinifera, but it's far more appreciated in other parts of the world and Argentina has particularly developed Malbec vineyards and wines to great success. Chile also uses Malbec a lot, and I have tried and enjoyed Malbec wines from Baja California too =)

Malbec is sometimes known as Cot, sometimes used together with the Cabernet Sauvignon... Malbec wines are appreciated, with very intense colour, a complex structure and a high alcohol content. I am not really a Malbec fan anyway, my fav variety is the Zinfandel!!

It's alright to be biased to prefer the wines of a specific country, I do that as well =)

Cabernet Sauvignon is the most successful and cultivated Vitis Vinifera in the world, thanks to its capacity to adapt very well to so many different climates and ground conditions. Today, huge Cabernet Sauvignon vineyards exist in many countries (from California to Bulgaria, and more!!) so it's not really a surprise to find Italian wines made with this variety in particular, so many people love it!!

The Middle East was the first part of the world to make wine, some say that it's where everything started- Wine was made in the Middle East thousands of years B.C. but today the wine production in countries of that region is very limited. Just a few specific varieties of Vitis Vinifera can adapt to the very dry climate, and the wines produced (at least kosher wines in Israel) are usually sweet reds.

Other parts of the world have managed to produce good wines in very dry climates, like Australia and parts of California... Whether you can have success growing vineyards and making wines in difficult conditions will always depend on cultivating the right variety of grapes to resist, and there are many other factors to be considered =)

 

[SeverinR]

I have two teen daughters, I know all about wine...wait, whine.