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Women in Fantasy

Amanita

Maester
Inspired by the thread about interesting societies, I’d like to open one about women’s role in fantasy now. Female characters are being associated with clichés much more often than male ones.

As I’ve mentioned there, one of the fantasy clichés I can stand least are the stories female protagonists defying the rules of their society for no reason. The author, usually a female one, creates a strictly patriarchal society, but for obvious reasons she doesn’t like this herself. And what does she do then? She has her character who has lived there all her life hate this society as well, without every explaining, why she’d start thinking that way. The protagonist either dresses like a boy or succeeds against all odds and evil, chauvinist men.

Why does it seem to be such an issue to actually create a society where the gender roles are different? Especially if magic comes into the game, there’s no reason why it shouldn’t have similar effects, modern technology had in our own world, at least for the people who are able to use it. And even without magic, this isn’t such an impossible task. Fighting women haven’t been unheard of in real life either, especially in ancient times. Among some western Asian people, women have been buried with weapons as well. Why not go from something like this and make it make sense in your world?
And if you do that, have the courage to have evil and cruel women as well.

Strong female characters don’t have to be fighters though. There aren’t nearly enough stories that give respect to the numerous tasks women actually did perform and are still performing in many societies.
The idea that women are weak, fragile and in need of protection isn’t common among all patriarchal societies, it’s more of an European ideal and there one more or less exclusive to the higher classes. Peasant women and later female factory workers had to do as much as the men. (Even though the latter often got lower wages.)
In many African countries women have to fetch water over long distances. This could be a start for a fantasy story as well. Maybe there’s a dragon or a water snake lurking there...
The healer and herbalist Hildegard von Bingen is an example of a European medieval woman who did plenty of things, that could create plots. Why not have a quest for a certain healing herb growing in a foreign country? Or for the reason and treatment of some kind of disease.

Even in some strongly patriarchal societies there are exceptions, where women do find themselves in power and not just as power behind the scenes. An interesting story I’ve discovered a few years ago searching for something completely different, is the one about the Begums of Bhopal.
Not one but three women in a row holding positions of power in an otherwise strictly patriarchal society at a time where this would have been completely impossible heyer in Germany.
Sultan Shah Jahan, Begum of Bhopal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is one of them, but if you type it into Google you’ll find more information if interested.

There are many more stories like this out there, that can serve as inspiration, I’m sure.
Some of the ideas I’ve described here might not be interesting to some male readers, but I highly doubt the stories about pseudo-feminist characters fighting evil men are. ;)
What do you think about the role of women in fantasy?
And do you know any books featuring female characters doing what I’ve described here?
 

Ravana

Istar
I have a strong tendency toward writing egalitarian societies, so their "roles," for me, are not meaningfully different. Which is a solution of sorts, though it has its own problems: ignoring gender differences, while aesthetically more pleasing, is pretty "fantastic" even for fantasy stories. Even without a strict equality, though, I almost never confine any class of sentient being to only certain roles… and when I have, it's nearly always been aliens, and for the purpose of exploring those differences without the baggage that accompanies familiar stereotypes.

(Once in a long while, I'll toss some minor culture with some variation on divided roles into a fantasy setting, for the "makes-you-think" value: for instance, a tribe in which men are always elected chiefs… but only the women are allowed to cast votes. Or vice versa: I've used both.)

On the other hand: how often do you see male fantasy characters who take a strong interest in needlepoint? Try doing that–and then try to convince your reader that the character in question is supposed to be a normal, well-adjusted heterosexual man. (Especially if he's the only male in the story who is interested in it.) Or even calligraphy… which was a primarily, sometimes exclusively, "male" art throughout much of post-Roman Europe's history? Which may point to an even bigger problem in gender portrayal: not that some activities are seen as exclusively male, but that a great many are seen as exclusively female. And, no, those tasks generally won't see much respect, no matter who's performing them, at least not in what experience suggests is the "average" fantasy setting. ("Darling, I absolutely adore the latest trim you made me! Sir Hedugrim is going to turn green with envy at next month's tourney when he sees me in it!" Not so much.)

At any rate, the personalities I give women do not differ fundamentally from those I give men, no matter what their activities may be. They can all be generous or cruel, benevolent or conniving… or simply narrow, petty, self-interested and largely timid herd members. Which is about the least "fantastic" thing I do in my stories.
 
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ThinkerX

Myth Weaver
One of the main characters in my current story is female. She is in a mild state of rebellion against her noble family, (running away from an arranged marriage with a not-so-nice noble twice her age) and in the story acts as a sort of agent for a powerful merchant. She is NOT a sword swinger (though after the events of this story she'll be taking up self defence training), a thief, or a spellcaster - just a well educated young woman. Most of the story is told through her eyes.

Two of her male companions are skilled in combat, veterans of a long and brutal war. One is a knight (minor noble) whose family has a lengthy history in the area the story is set (with all the attendant complications), the other a peasant turned warrior turned petty military magician when he was discovered to have a modicum of magical talent.

And no, she does not become the classic 'damsel in distress' - she is traumaticised by the some of the events in the story, but she is mostly concerned with other events.
 

Kit

Maester
Which may point to an even bigger problem in gender portrayal: not that some activities are seen as exclusively male, but that a great many are seen as exclusively female. And, no, those tasks generally won't see much respect, no matter who's performing them, at least not in what experience suggests is the "average" fantasy setting.

I would submit that it's not the task itself which is demeaning, but the fact that women in society have accepted both the task and their second-class status.

If we had a society in a cold-weather climate in which hardly anyone had the skill to sew a functional piece of clothing, that skill (whether it was performed by a male or a female) would be esteemed.

If the lower classes of a society decided to abruptly quit their work- work which is essential to survival but which the upper class people haven't the first idea of how to do it- either the class system would be radically changed, or everybody would die.
 

Kit

Maester
Inspired by the thread about interesting societies, I’d like to open one about women’s role in fantasy now. Female characters are being associated with clichés much more often than male ones.

As I’ve mentioned there, one of the fantasy clichés I can stand least are the stories female protagonists defying the rules of their society for no reason. The author, usually a female one, creates a strictly patriarchal society, but for obvious reasons she doesn’t like this herself. And what does she do then? She has her character who has lived there all her life hate this society as well, without every explaining, why she’d start thinking that way. The protagonist either dresses like a boy or succeeds against all odds and evil, chauvinist men.

People write what they know. Almost every woman has felt (to a greater or lesser degree) that experience of being subjugated in some way for having been born with the substandard plumbing. People also write their wish-fulfillment.... anyone who has felt the aforementioned experience wishes she could do something heroic and spectacular to change it- even though in real life, what most of us must do in most of those situations is suck it up and deal.
 
I don't know that I'm radically shaking up any conventions in my novel about gender roles, although my main protagonist is a very forward, who-cares-about-conventions-this-seems-like-fun kinda girl. The society she lives in is modelled after 18th century England socially (although with a 15th-century level of technology). Inheritance (including noble titles) is through male primogeniture, although women who are bullheaded enough can end up ruling, and nobody really bats an eye (although it is considered a little unseemly). Women's roles are more circumscribed in the upper echelons of society; in rural areas, women are respected almost as much as men, although town magistrates and constables are (almost) always men.

That's how it starts, anyway. Things change a bit during the story.
 

Telcontar

Staff
Moderator
Strong female characters don’t have to be fighters though.

I think it was an important part of my development as a writer when I realized this. In my very early attempts at writing female characters, the closer they got to main-character status, the more likely they were to be fighters, uncaring, brash - in a word, mannish. Not because I didn't think feminine women were interesting (THAT hasn't been a problem since puberty ;) ) but because I didn't understand how to portray a woman's strength in traditional roles.

ignoring gender differences, while aesthetically more pleasing, is pretty "fantastic" even for fantasy stories

Yeah. So many people forget - or ignore - that the gulf between traditional male and female roles wasn't an accident. The differences don't apply as much in the modern age, to be sure, but that doesn't mean that differences don't exist.

On the other hand: how often do you see male fantasy characters who take a strong interest in needlepoint? Try doing that–and then try to convince your reader that the character in question is supposed to be a normal, well-adjusted heterosexual man.

I don't see the difficulty in that, but maybe that's just me. After all, in much of medieval Europe pretty much any skilled craft was the domain of men, even needlework. Offhand I can't think of one that has been associated with women for more than a couple hundred years (though this area is definitely not my forte).

Anyway, as I started out saying, it was very valuable to me when I realized that I could have strong women characters that still filled the stereotypical women's roles. Silly young me, not seeing how much strength it takes to be a good mother...
 

Amanita

Maester
Yeah. So many people forget - or ignore - that the gulf between traditional male and female roles wasn't an accident.
Yes, but I really do wonder, where the idea that woman are worthless/not really human/without any intelligence/the source of evil comes from. I understand that the male desire to make sure that the children they were caring for played an important role in this but it still doesn't explain all of it in my opinion. It is common in many cultures and yet humanity would die out without women and most men probably did love their mother at some point of their lives, and maybe their wife as well.
It's obvious why there weren't female mine workers, soldiers etc. in early times, but I don't really understand why for example female scientists faced so much animosity even though no intrinsic female trait keeps women from being good scientits as those who did make it, show. Even during the first half of the Twentieth century this was still a big issue.
Another interesting bit is the fact, that witchcraft is one of the few crimes in the Bible, only women are accused of. In most of the other laws, everything not marriage and adultery-related always only applies to men, but this is specifically directed at women. (There was a discussion about this at NaNo as well, that's why I'm mentioning it.)
Die anyone here ever give these matters any thought?

Even in modern western society "strong women" usually are expected to act like men are supposed to act. This is going so far that sometimes, women are asked to learn to speak in a deeper voice because otherwise they aren't supposed to be taken seriously and other things like that.
 

Telcontar

Staff
Moderator
Yes, but I really do wonder, where the idea that woman are worthless/not really human/without any intelligence/the source of evil comes from.

Can't say much about it myself, since I really don't see much of it personally. I know I've heard plenty about how it is rooted in religion somewhere (Eve offering the apple, Delilah cutting Samson's hair, blah blah) but religion usually just passes on pre-existing prejudices, so it probably predates that.

To the part about witchcraft, I don't know about in the Bible but I do know that plenty of men were accused of it in history - it was certainly not a woman-only 'crime' (woman dominant, yes, with something like a 3:1 ratio). This may have something to do with the fact that it was often merely used as a political weapon against people without the influence to escape or prevent the accusations. More women fall into that category than men - and of the men who were accused, relatively fewer were actually brought to trial.
 

Leuco

Troubadour
What do you think about the role of women in fantasy?
And do you know any books featuring female characters doing what I’ve described here?

Women in fantasy, as in reality, take on many roles. In literature, there are many female archetypes that, when viewed collectively, exemplify the great diversity of feminine vices and virtue. Ancient literature has all sorts of interesting characters (Dido, Penelope, Circe, Camilla, Atalanta, Hippolyta...) and often they serve as both maiden and warrior. They can be both princess and priestess, queen and witch, temptress and savior. Personally, I enjoy reading about the warrior princess and the sorceress queen. Maybe there's a reason why they're so common in literature.

In my books I have many female characters who take many roles (including a half elf outcast who serves as protector, teacher, warrior, and philosopher) and together I'd like to think they reflect something intriguing about the feminine spirit.

One book that comes to mind, that portrays women in a radically daring way, is R.A. Salvatore's Homeland. The story takes place in a subterranean, matriarchal society ruled by priestesses who worship and serve Lloth-- the spider queen.

The women in this book are so evil!
 

Amanita

Maester
Excuse me, but what am I suppsoed to think about this reaction to my post? Clumsy wording that gave this a completely different meaning is quite possible with me, just ask "The Blue Lotus".
 

Kit

Maester
I was reacting to the stunningly Freudian typo.

And yes, "completely different meaning" applies. Wasn't sure whether to ROFL or get offended (did I mention I'm a female scientist?), so I settled for

:eek:

:eek:

:eek:
 
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Telcontar

Staff
Moderator
Giggles like a twelve year old.

Heh heh heh. Didn't even notice that.

ScienTits. Back to giggling.

What sort of scientist, Kit?
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
With respect to a point raised earlier, doesn't the embodiment of evil in women, as a mythological concept, start to come about with the advent of agriculture and the move away from hunting and gathering, when men start to intrude more on spheres of life that belonged to women in the nomadic way of life and you get a bit of a power struggle? Also, women represent and embody mystery and the supernatural to early people in a way men cannot, because women have the power to bring new life into the world and that is not well understood. This is another source of power. Associating certain evils with the woman is a way to marginalize that power.
 

Amanita

Maester
Thank you for pointing it out. :eek:
Should I edit it or not?
I hope it's obvious that I didn't write this on purpose. And I am female by the way. ;)
 
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In my fantasy work, I have a mix of societies, with the minority that my characters interactive the most with being a matriarchy. Others are meritocratic, or patriarchal.
 

Kit

Maester
Thank you for pointing it out. :eek:
Should I edit it or not?
I hope it's obvious that I didn't write this on purpose. And I am female by the way. ;)

No, don't edit, it's funny. Thanks for being a good sport about my teasing.
 

SeverinR

Vala
My society humans still have the belief of human women being second class or sub. But elven women are integrated into society equally. (Dwarves would too if I had any) Some humans try to treat elven women as they do human women, but find that they don't submit.

I have yet to create a female character sword swinger, it would be represented by a female body builder though.(the non-steroid using, female looking body builder) Not just some super model with a little muscle tone.
If she swings a sword equal to a man, she will have to be ripped like a man.

The one or two female fighters I have written have used rapiers, out moving the heavy armored and heavy sword swinger.

I think readers kind of want the traditional damsel in need of a knight in shining armor to come rescue her. The princess who knows how to handle a eligant party, but doesn't know which end of the sword to hold on too. It is interesting that even when a woman(Queen) rules, the women are treated no better.
 
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