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A whole chapter dedicated to World building

Recently I realize something. A large portion of my WiP take place in a academy for young magic users, yet not a single chapter depict a magic lesson. Maybe I should write about one of the POW characters attending the first elemental magic lesson, in which he can learn about the differences between the 15 different types of magic and how magic staves works. Now when I think about it I never properly explained why staves are so prominent and wands, magic swords and umbrellas so rare. All writing advices on the internet are always preaching against all form of info dumps, but we all know that some of the people, who make writing videos in YouTube, don’t really have experience in writing and maybe that’s true for the people who make writing blogs.
In my opinion the world in a high fantasy story is an important character and it deserve to be described and sharing the spotlight with the human characters. What do you guys think?
 
In my opinion the whole no info dumps thing is way overplayed and misapplied. In trying to avoid info-dumping, writers can end up confusing and frustrating the reader by underexplaining. I read fantasy to be placed in another world different than my own, so the last thing I want to be thinking while reading is "Where the hell are we?"

The no info dumps rule was developed, I think, partly as an antidote to the tendency to put in pages of backstory about the world in the first few chapters, and partly because of authors who are so obsessed with worldbuilding they take every opportunity to dump paragraphs of information to the point of smothering the story.

In your case, you have a good reason to info-dump. If it's in the middle of the story rather than the beginning, it would be best. My advice is to never infodump before the reader has a chance to care about the characters. But invest me in the characters first and i'll be eager to learn about your world.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
Is it relevant to the story that it all gets explained at once? If it isn't I'd probably try and spread the information out a little. One of the cool things with fantasy is exploring new worlds and figuring out how they work. For me, I think the exploration part is important.

Apart from the generic advice about info dumps being bad, I think there are two other things to consider as well:
- Does the reader have enough context to understand the importance of the information you're sharing with them?
- Is the information easy to understand or will you have to explain it again later when it becomes relevant to the story?

I personally try not to go into too much details about how the world works until the reader is actually curios enough about it to want to know. This is of course highly theoretical and I have no way of telling whether I get it right or not.
My theory is that it's more interesting to have something amazing happen and then explain it afterwards, than it is to explain how amazing things work and then give an example.

Obviously this varies from writer to writer and story to story, and I can't even claim to be that experienced a writer - I just have a lot of ideas and theories about how I think it ought to work - so take it with a pinch of salt.
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
There's a difference between info dumping and letting information flow out naturally at a good pace.

Info dumping is the story coming to a dead stop while the author decides to cram in an encyclopedia entry about their world.

Part of the challenge, which IMHO a lot of new authors don't understand, is designing the scene so the info comes out naturally in an entertaining manner. It's like setting up the dominos so they fall nicely with one tap of the finger. Compare that to disjointed sections of dominos with large gaps where the author has to run around and keep poking to make sure all the dominos fall.

You want to share things about magic, a magic class would be a good place for info to naturally come out. But that shouldn't be the only thing the scene should do. There are three things scenes can do, advance the plot, expand the world, and develop character.

Great scenes do all three. Good scenes will do two. Meh scenes only do one, and are generally the first ones in line to be edited out. Because why have one scene that does only one thing and another that does two when you can design a scene that does all three?
 

Mythopoet

Auror
There is only one thing that really makes an "info dump" an "info dump" in the negative sense, and that is boredom. Is your audience bored while you are conveying this information? If the answer is "yes" then it is an info dump and should be cut. If the answer is "no" then it is world building and it should be kept.

So the question you really have to ask yourself is not whether or not the information is relevant, but whether it is interesting. Generally speaking, (for neuro-typical minds) readers find world building details more interesting when they already have a framework of plot and character to place it in context. If they have already met some of your characters and things have already happened with your characters that have caused the audience to connect or relate to the characters, then setting details that affect the character have more meaning. If you introduce the setting details first so that the readers will understand them before they meet the characters, that usually doesn't work because the reader's mind has no contextual frame work to place the details in so the details are both more boring and easily forgettable.

This is why, for instance, it works in LOTR when Gandalf tells some of the details about the backstory of the Ring in an earlier chapter, but well after we have gotten to know Frodo, because we can place it in the context of how it affects Frodo directly. But more details about the history of the Ring and the threat to the larger world are put off until the Hobbits have left the Shire and seen some of the larger world. More context is needed for the level of detail you get in the Council of Elrond before you can care about it.
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
I concur with everyone else's suggestions. The trick is in how you want to play this magic lesson, because that's a popular way to ease readers into a story, and it's rarely exciting. And I mean a lesson in general, not just magic. Sword-fighting lessons, school classrooms, etc..

The things you need at the beginning of a story are setting, character, and situation. And they're like a three-legged stool. If you have a strong character with a strong voice, and a setting that's easy to understand and picture in a vague sense, and a situation that's interesting and specific, you have a wonderful seat!

If you have a character who doesn't know his name or how he got to where he is, or he doesn't know what's going on and he's just running down an empty hallway...you have no seat. Each element needs to share the burden of the story, or the whole thing tips over.

The setting doesn't need to be really fleshed out. A couple lines interspersed in a chapter work just fine. Oh, they're in a courtyard with twelve-foot stone walls...because magic is so dangerous/ secretive they don't want the outside world knowing what they're doing there. Great. Something like that. Just enough to know where it is and why that's important, but not enough to bore us to tears when he names off the kinds of trees lining the walkways.

The character lens is probably the single most important element to the beginning of a story. It not only tells us WHO they are, but how they speak and what they think is important, and so much more. Use speech patterns, use internal thoughts to tell us who he is without saying it. Don't tell me he came from a noble family, tell me he's upset they opened the school up to commoners for the first time this year, and he's glad he'll graduate before the rabble spoils the school. Or something. Use his internal thoughts and his personal feelings to flavor all those paragraphs in the beginning as we get to know exactly who he is. Then, as you get rolling with the story, we'll laugh when he does something against his nature or out of character...without having to be told that it's out of character. If he's learning a skill, use snappy dialogue and unusual details to make it feel fresh and new. The character can think/ say anything you want, and it'll breath life into a scene like we've read dozens of times before.

If you want to show a magic lesson, decide why it's important. Is something significant going to happen to the character in said lesson? Is this the moment where he meets his best friend from later in the book? Is this where he makes a mistake that will haunt him forever? Something happening there has to matter. It won't interest readers if it's just a bunch of information on how magic works and sparkles or levitating boulders. Something significant and personal or meaningful to the character.

Hope that gives you some ideas.
 
I personally try not to go into too much details about how the world works until the reader is actually curios enough about it to want to know.

I introduced the fact that there are 15 styles of magic in that world in the very first chapter. By chapter 13 the redder have already meet all the important protagonist, know the PoW characters, there goals, dreams and families and some of the obstacles they must overcome to achieve there goals. The main character have already witnessed 6 types of magic and I think that at these point the reader should be curios what are the other 9 , and what is there role in the plot.
 
C

Chessie

Guest
There is only one thing that really makes an "info dump" an "info dump" in the negative sense, and that is boredom. Is your audience bored while you are conveying this information? If the answer is "yes" then it is an info dump and should be cut. If the answer is "no" then it is world building and it should be kept.

So the question you really have to ask yourself is not whether or not the information is relevant, but whether it is interesting. Generally speaking, (for neuro-typical minds) readers find world building details more interesting when they already have a framework of plot and character to place it in context. If they have already met some of your characters and things have already happened with your characters that have caused the audience to connect or relate to the characters, then setting details that affect the character have more meaning. If you introduce the setting details first so that the readers will understand them before they meet the characters, that usually doesn't work because the reader's mind has no contextual frame work to place the details in so the details are both more boring and easily forgettable.

This is why, for instance, it works in LOTR when Gandalf tells some of the details about the backstory of the Ring in an earlier chapter, but well after we have gotten to know Frodo, because we can place it in the context of how it affects Frodo directly. But more details about the history of the Ring and the threat to the larger world are put off until the Hobbits have left the Shire and seen some of the larger world. More context is needed for the level of detail you get in the Council of Elrond before you can care about it.

Whhaaat! You're back! :D Yay!

Ahem. I agree with most of the posts here. If you have a lot of information that seems fitting to help the story move along, then cutting it up into chunks throughout the narrative (and dialogue) is really the best bet. That way you're slowly feeding information to your readers in a way that's engaging and doesn't disrupt their immersion. Sometimes though infodumps need to be done. The shorter the better imo. An entire chapter of worldbuilding and background story might not sit well with the modern day reader. But do what feels right for your story in the end.
 

D. Gray Warrior

Troubadour
There's nothing wrong with explaining your world as long as it is relevant to what's going on and does not hinder the flow of the story.

Also, please don't make your character conveniently dumb or an amnesiac as an opportunity for explaining something. I know Naruto is victim to the former in the Chunin preliminary where he asks a question because he was not paying attention in class, and someone explains it to him.

By all means, guide your readers through your world, just don't let it get in the way of the story and come up with a more creative way than devoting a paragraph or when a page to the details.

If you follow the guideline of "show, don't tell", then you shouldn't need to infodump.
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
I agree with what folks are basically saying, the only bad info dump is... a bad info dump. That doesn't even necessarily mean boring, however. They can be less than thrilling but still vital.

Sort of related, I started reading Game of Thrones again after... wow... when did it come out? Lot of years, LOL. In later books I would give GRRM much grief over his extremes in description, world building, etc., but if you take a look at the beginning of GoT I see how I got into the books in the first place. His writing is far more sparse and he doesn't waste time on detailed world building/history early on. The first solid hit is in Catelyn's 1st chapter (deeper knowledge of her faith -7 Faced God- and the Godswood of the Starks) if I recall right, and we really don't get hammered over the head with world/history detail until we get to Daenerys, where the gloves come off in describing her history and slapping us with it.

Before these chapters, we get mostly concepts but not details, so I had bought in by that time.

With the setup you seem to have (and I am not the target audience, if I see a magic school with classes, I'm done) don't count on the reader caring about those other 9 magics... If they haven't been introduced organically, I'm concerned about an info dump about them. As a reader, I want what matters. And classroom scenes... not compelling without something to further my interest.

So anyhow, it's impossible to judge without reading it, but I think you are right to be wary. That said, for a draft, it NEVER hurts to info dump the hell out of something, just the act of doing so might inspire better ways to feed the reader knowledge.

EDIT: I went the opposite direction in my early draft, sparse on description of setting and history and etc., in order to get the draft done. But smokes, it's sometimes hard to see where you need to add back, LOL.
 
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skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
I'll go Demesnedenoir one further.

There's no such thing as a good infodump. If it's done well, it's simply called good writing. People use "infodump" as a shorthand for "descriptions or backstory that is handled badly."

Moreover, while there are ways to handle this such that it's universally regarded as bad, there's no way to handle it such that it's universally regarded as good. One person's infodump is another person's evocative description, or fascinating backstory.

You can, with much practice, begin to develop an ear for what violates *your* standards of boring. There's no way in the world for you to know you have violated *my* standards of boring.

With this, as with so much else, there is only this daunting advice: just write. Show it to others. Listen to what they say, then listen only to yourself. Then show it again and listen to others again.
 

Heliotrope

Staff
Article Team
^^^^ I've been thanking Skip a lot lately. This is another one of those times.

I remember the first "info-dump" in Wizards First Rule was in the third or fourth chapter when Khalan starts to explain to Richard WTF is going on. By that time we had a quad of men try to kill them, something unknown flying above, a father murdered in a grotesque and mysterious way, a strange and cryptic message left in a jar, a new plant that an experienced wood's guide had never seen before lunge out and bite his hand, and a mysterious woman with an unknown power who could turn men against themselves...

So yeah... he made sure to hook the reader ASAP with as much awesome stuff as possible so by the time I got to "WTF is happening here?" I was totally prepared to rip through four pages of back story.

Expo is necessary. It is how you set it up that matters.
 
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^^^^ I've been thanking Skip a lot lately. This is another one of those times.

I remember the first "info-dump" in Wizards First Rule was in the third or fourth chapter when Khalan starts to explain to Richard WTF is going on. By that time we had a quad of men try to kill them, something unknown flying above, a father murdered in a grotesque and mysterious way, a strange and cryptic message left in a jar, a new plant that an experienced wood's guide had never seen before lunge out and bite his hand, and a mysterious woman with an unknown power who could turn men against themselves...

So yeah... he made sure to hook the reader ASAP with as much awesome stuff as possible so by the time I got to "WTF is happening here?" I was totally prepared to rip through four pages of back story.

Expo is necessary. It is how you set it up that matters.

I agree with this. Some of the best "Infodumps" I've encountered are in books that have put me in the same emotional, confused place as the character its being explained to- so much so that it's literally made me go "WHAT THE FRICK!! IS GOING!!! ON!!!". And in those cases, I'm always beyond happy to finally get the details even if it takes up an entire chapter all on its own.

So my advice, really... Is make your readers care. Present things to them in such a way that they're left wondering wth that was about- and then follow through. Because there's nothing worse than a book that sets you up in that state and then just never gives you any freaking explanation.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
One thing I really like about Steven Erikson is that he resists the urge to explain. Some writers need to trust their readers more. With Erikson and a few others (Wolfe, at times) you either figure it out or you don’t. There isn’t much hand-holding. If you have to go into explanation mode, I think it works best if you keep it short. An exception to that is that if you have such a strong voice (Stephenson) or such intriguing subject matter (Egan) that the reader will give you a lot more room to explain before becoming bored.
 
One thing I really like about Steven Erikson is that he resists the urge to explain. Some writers need to trust their readers more. With Erikson and a few others (Wolfe, at times) you either figure it out or you don’t. There isn’t much hand-holding. If you have to go into explanation mode, I think it works best if you keep it short. An exception to that is that if you have such a strong voice (Stephenson) or such intriguing subject matter (Egan) that the reader will give you a lot more room to explain before becoming bored.

I really don't consider it "hand holding" to give your readers an explanation when warranted. Especially if it's a completely foreign world; holding information back or making readers figure things out on their own can be great when it's used correctly. It can especially be useful as a plot device, or otherwise used in larger series' to flesh the world out better, show you the sheer magnitude of it (in that you don't know everything), etc. And i've come to expect it of larger series' to the point where it's actually offputting for them to give too much info about the world.

But otherwise? I want to know about the world the characters are living in. That's why I'm reading your book in the first place; I want to know what x people eat for x meal, or how magic works. I want to know what the laws are, what cultural customs exist. I don't want a giant info dump of it most times, obviously. Those are useful in certain contexts (like the one mentioned at the beginning of this thread IMO), but I prefer "show don't tell" methods that allow you to experience the world as a normal person within that world would experience it. And I really dislike authors (again, it's a personal thing) who lead you into this giant magical world.... And then don't explain jack s!#& even in the most rudimentary ways.

It's about as lazy to me as holey worldbuilding and plots are.
 
Hi,

I'm going to be a bit of nay sayer and agree with Penpilot - don't do a chapter simply to world build. Yes, readers want to know about the world / academy. But they also want to know about the characters and the plot. Also fifteen types of magic is too much to simply dump on them. Only give them the ones that matter to the story and the character and simply mention the others in passing as it becomes relevant throughout the book.

If you want to do a lesson, which I think is actually a very good idea given the setting, do it. But I'd do it early on - first lesson at school? Then introduce other important characters or show their characters. Maybe advance the plot even if its in a roundabout way. Add a subplot - his first detention and who he blames for it?

Cheers, Greg.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I really don't consider it "hand holding" to give your readers an explanation when warranted. Especially if it's a completely foreign world; holding information back or making readers figure things out on their own can be great when it's used correctly. It can especially be useful as a plot device, or otherwise used in larger series' to flesh the world out better, show you the sheer magnitude of it (in that you don't know everything), etc. And i've come to expect it of larger series' to the point where it's actually offputting for them to give too much info about the world.

But otherwise? I want to know about the world the characters are living in. That's why I'm reading your book in the first place; I want to know what x people eat for x meal, or how magic works. I want to know what the laws are, what cultural customs exist. I don't want a giant info dump of it most times, obviously. Those are useful in certain contexts (like the one mentioned at the beginning of this thread IMO), but I prefer "show don't tell" methods that allow you to experience the world as a normal person within that world would experience it. And I really dislike authors (again, it's a personal thing) who lead you into this giant magical world.... And then don't explain jack s!#& even in the most rudimentary ways.

It's about as lazy to me as holey worldbuilding and plots are.


I disagree with the last bit. How much explaining to do is a matter of choice and style, and providing background and explanation can be done well. But explaining is a lot easier than building a world where the readers are left to piece things together for themselves and actually making that work. It's the opposite of lazy when done correctly (e.g. Erickson).
 

Annoyingkid

Banned
Recently I realize something. A large portion of my WiP take place in a academy for young magic users, yet not a single chapter depict a magic lesson. Maybe I should write about one of the POW characters attending the first elemental magic lesson, in which he can learn about the differences between the 15 different types of magic and how magic staves works. Now when I think about it I never properly explained why staves are so prominent and wands, magic swords and umbrellas so rare. All writing advices on the internet are always preaching against all form of info dumps, but we all know that some of the people, who make writing videos in YouTube, don’t really have experience in writing and maybe that’s true for the people who make writing blogs.
In my opinion the world in a high fantasy story is an important character and it deserve to be described and sharing the spotlight with the human characters. What do you guys think?

Anybody can stall the story and dump the information. What would really separate you from the crowd of aspiring writers is the ability to elevate scenes like these, scenes that one would otherwise think of as dull and dry, and do something imaginative and clever with the characters and setting to both get the information across and fascinate the reader.
 
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