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Magic and World Dissconected

Howdy! So, I've been working on my new novel as of late, and I've put aside everything else to zone in on it, so I haven't been active. But in this process, I've come across something that worries me. My Elemental magic system was designed with an emphasis on combat, which is all fine and dandy. The issue is that I want to expand the magic into all aspects of society, as there are massive portions of the story without combat.

I've started the Stormlight Archives series recently, and I am impressed with how the "fantasy" seems to radiate across all parts of the world. I want to do something like that. So far it feels like I'm just writing a faux-historical novel, because I find it hard to integrate those "fantasy" elements that are dear to me.

Everything feels too mundane, but I worry that if I try integrating more "fantasy" I'll end up with a bunch of half-baked worldbuilding concepts that seem out of place in my setting. Should I change something now, or wait till revision?

Any tips or a nice dose of sympathy would be good! [emoji106]

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Hey! This is a really good question. I believe you should keep going and let the story develop itself. For me, if I think too too much on the creation of the world than I never get any words on the paper, ya know? I'd give it thought while driving or before bed, but when you set behind the key part I would just type and let the magic system and world create itself. I know that's probably not helpful, but it's what helped me create my fantasy world and I'm very pleased with it.


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Hey! This is a really good question. I believe you should keep going and let the story develop itself. For me, if I think too too much on the creation of the world than I never get any words on the paper, ya know? I'd give it thought while driving or before bed, but when you set behind the key part I would just type and let the magic system and world create itself. I know that's probably not helpful, but it's what helped me create my fantasy world and I'm very pleased with it.


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There's merit in what you say. I think a lot of worldbuilding, or at least, the best worldbuilding, is spontaneous. I guess I'm just having writer's doubts. After all, there's no use judging a painting that isn't complete.

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skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
Name a couple of fantasy elements you are sure you're going to include. Then name a couple you aren't sure about.

There's just not enough information in the post to give useful feedback.
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
Hello everyone!

Netardapope: In this case, the best that you can do is to just allow your story to flow and evolve by itself. Designing a world and a Magic system is great fun, but our real job is to be storytellers, which means to get a story told. The setting is an important part too, that's true, but it should not distract you much from your story itself.

Elemental Magic is indeed better aimed at combat, but it's always possible to add curious twists here and there. What if Fire Mages can trap a source of intense heat inside of a glass jar or something, and this jar can be given various purposes later? What if a Lightning Mage can enchant mirrors, so they become portals and you can travel long distances through them?

Maybe Earth Mages can make a field more fertile, or somehow allow a harvest of giant pumpkins?

I have kind of Elemental Mages in my current WIP, and one of these days I am going to start a new thread to see what others think of the powers that are part of my story. Keep up the good work, believe in your story! You can do it.

I have moved this thread from Writing Questions to the World building Forum.
 

Aryth

Minstrel
I've started the Stormlight Archives series recently, and I am impressed with how the "fantasy" seems to radiate across all parts of the world. I want to do something like that. So far it feels like I'm just writing a faux-historical novel, because I find it hard to integrate those "fantasy" elements that are dear to me.

I feel you! I LOVE the Stormlight Archive and want to create something that detailed as well! I realized that I started comparing myself to Brandon Sanderson (not a good idea for self-esteem) and that I just felt overwhelmed because what I was thinking up/writing wasn't anything as amazing as what he has. I keep having to remind myself that he has been working on that series for years (I think a decade...) and I'm just starting out.
I have high hopes for creating a detailed fantasy world, but have realized that it's probably going to take me years to create something that detailed. Something I've tried asking myself when I want to see how a part of my magic system would affect the rest of the "world" is "if this power/ability/thing were introduced in our world, what issues would arise and how might it change everyday life for people?"
Best of luck! :)
 
Hi,

I think you need to go back to basics. What is your magic system? How does it work? Who has magic? How do they advance themselves? Etc. Ask all the basic questions and then try to fit the answers into your book.

Elemental magic is more suited to war? Why? What is this magic and how does it work? Are we talking just fireballs? Or more than that? Can a wizard say enchant fire into a rock and thus create a source of heating that can be sold to homes - hot rocks? What about light? Yes it's a blinding flash and a laser beam, but can you also enchant glow stones? If it does illusion, what else can he enchant? I'm thinking about cloaks of invisibility which might be hot sellers on the black market. Or instead do you want to limit its applications? Eg no enchantments and magic must be trained and the only training is provided by the military.

Remember you can come up with any number of reasons why your magic is limited to certain fields. Or why it isn't. But the most important thing is that your reasons are consistent through out your world build. Otherwise you'll have people asking "if he could summongiant eagles, then why the hell couldn't he just fly to Mount Doom nd dump the ring in it? It would have saved a lot of pages!" (And yes there is an answer to this!)

Cheers, Greg.
 

Stardeath

Acolyte
I think it'll come down to how you use the aforementioned magic in the combat, if its magic concerning the elements, they can also be used in normal life pretty much easily , like water can be used as a flood in combat and normal fountains by the common people (I don't know if I'm making much sense). But if its something more sinister, like something that may cause solely death and destruction, its not going to be easy to involve it everywhere.
 
Name a couple of fantasy elements you are sure you're going to include. Then name a couple you aren't sure about.

There's just not enough information in the post to give useful feedback.
The magic in my world is an elemental system, through which gifted humans form contact with their Astral Projection, which is an aspect of their soul that exists in an alternate reality called the Astral Plane, another spiritual realm existing paralell to the real world. To form the connection, they go through a process where they build a Mindscape, an instable pocket reality that is different for all Siphoners in order to make contact with their Astral Projection. When they do this, they form a Link with their Astral Projection, which is composed fully of Astral Energy, called Astorel.

Making a Link allows Siphoners to "Siphon" Astorel from the Astral Plane into the mortal coil, which can then be used by the Siphoner to form links with natural objects by attaching a part of their soul to said objects, theoretically making that thing into a part of their existence. What they attach Astorel to depends on which elemental, a sentient companion from the Astral Realm whom dwells inside the human soul, was "Awoken" during their process of forming a mindscape.

For example, fire elementals will only be able to Translate Astorel into thing pertaining to flame, wind elementals will only be able to translate it into things pertaining to wind. In a nutshell, the magic is about attaching your soul to certain elemental objects for a temporary (usually) period of time, in order to manipulate them in the real world.

Keep in mind, I've just started so I have enough room to make drastic changes to the magic, if you think it necessary. Sorry if it's a text wall, but this is basically a watered down version of my original worldbuilding notes.

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skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
So, let's take wind, because fire is too easy. You want magic to "radiate" throughout your world. To me, this means having magic employed in just about anything *but* combat. Yes, you'll use it there, but try excluding that for a while, just to see what you get.

An obvious one would be sailing. What captain wouldn't pay cash money to be able to summon up the wind he needs? Plenty of room here for variations--the Siphoner (right word?) might bring too much or too little wind. Or too suddenly. S/he might bring a wind that covers half the ocean, or manage to pinpoint just this ship and no other.

Windmills. Some poor slave of a Siphoner who sits all day making sure the windmill turns.

Air conditioning!

Jokes, tricks, pranks.

A wind to blow all my leaves into the neighbor's yard. A wind to bring up a dust storm. Try to think of what crafts might benefit from being able to control air.

Everything costs, of course. It may not make economic sense for a blacksmith to hire a Siphoner to operate his bellows. Depending on your social structure, a Siphoner might well regard such worth as beneath him, regardless of the pay. Or they don't work for pay at all and are employed at noble courts.

Anyway, it sounds like you just need to wander around in your world for a while, dreaming up places where magic might be used. When you have at least some areas colored in, then you can return to combat.

Does that help?
 
Sometimes, the trick is simply to give the impression that magic (or indeed, any other aspect of the milieu) permeates the world, rather than try for a massive showing of how it permeates.

I.e., if you can give readers the impression that a lot occurs off-screen, you'll have accomplished your task, even if you aren't showing it being used in big ways every single scene.

A couple ways to go about doing this once you've decided how this magic might be used outside of combat...

Conscientiously plan a scene in which you'll show the magic being used for something besides combat.

The scene doesn't need to be about whatever magical use you are showing; the magic use can be something in the background. For instance, two important characters are having a dinner in private rooms in a castle, nearing evening on an late autumn day, and a servant or attendant who's tending them while they talk takes a lantern off the mantel, bends down, and sends fire from it to the logs in the fireplace to get that fire started. One of the advantages of leaving the magic use in the background is to give an impression that it is common—the focus of its use doesn't need to be only on the main characters and the important story-related things they are doing in each scene.

You can also have important characters, main characters or side characters, casually doing things that aren't directly related to whatever story-related activity is happening within the scene. Let's say your MC is walking through a city street on the way to an important meeting and he spots a group of children who are playing some form of soccer; he casually summons wind to knock the ball away from whichever child has possession of it. This, at least, shows the magic being used outside combat. But better yet might be: have that main character's guide, an unnamed ad hoc character who'll play no other role in the story, do that casually—this shows that magic is being used by relatively unimportant people in various non-combat ways.

Highlight the magical permeation by having your characters notice when it's not being used.

So, to borrow an example from Skip:

Two main characters are having a discussion, and one complains about profits taking a hit because the damn fool of a captain he'd hired to transport cargo set sail from Byortish without a wind-controller on board, and a storm swept in, sending the ship into the rocks. Most of the cargo was lost. This, also, could be a casual mention during conversation rather than something plot-related.

Ok, so the common threads in the examples above:

  • Magic use doesn't happen only as the plot demands it.
  • Magic use isn't only used by the important main and side characters.
  • The important characters aren't shocked, surprised, particularly intrigued by its common use. I.e., it's mundane, a given. (But they might take particular notice when it's not used, as in the case of the foolish ship captain. So the absence of its use is the "exception to the rule.")

When planning scenes, plan for doing these things in the background or seemingly-casually. But you don't need to do this constantly for every scene. Bits and pieces, here and there, will give the reader the impression you are wanting them to have.
 
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So, let's take wind, because fire is too easy. You want magic to "radiate" throughout your world. To me, this means having magic employed in just about anything *but* combat. Yes, you'll use it there, but try excluding that for a while, just to see what you get.

An obvious one would be sailing. What captain wouldn't pay cash money to be able to summon up the wind he needs? Plenty of room here for variations--the Siphoner (right word?) might bring too much or too little wind. Or too suddenly. S/he might bring a wind that covers half the ocean, or manage to pinpoint just this ship and no other.

Windmills. Some poor slave of a Siphoner who sits all day making sure the windmill turns.

Air conditioning!

Jokes, tricks, pranks.

A wind to blow all my leaves into the neighbor's yard. A wind to bring up a dust storm. Try to think of what crafts might benefit from being able to control air.

Everything costs, of course. It may not make economic sense for a blacksmith to hire a Siphoner to operate his bellows. Depending on your social structure, a Siphoner might well regard such worth as beneath him, regardless of the pay. Or they don't work for pay at all and are employed at noble courts.

Anyway, it sounds like you just need to wander around in your world for a while, dreaming up places where magic might be used. When you have at least some areas colored in, then you can return to combat.

Does that help?
This was wonderful. Better than I expected. A great thanks!

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Sometimes, the trick is simply to give the impression that magic (or indeed, any other aspect of the milieu) permeates the world, rather than try for a massive showing of how it permeates.

I.e., if you can give readers the impression that a lot occurs off-screen, you'll have accomplished your task, even if you aren't showing it being used in big ways every single scene.

A couple ways to go about doing this once you've decided how this magic might be used outside of combat...

Conscientiously plan a scene in which you'll show the magic being used for something besides combat.

The scene doesn't need to be about whatever magical use you are showing; the magic use can be something in the background. For instance, two important characters are having a dinner in private rooms in a castle, nearing evening on an late autumn day, and a servant or attendant who's tending them while they talk takes a lantern off the mantel, bends down, and sends fire from it to the logs in the fireplace to get that fire started. One of the advantages of leaving the magic use in the background is to give an impression that it is common–the focus of its use doesn't need to be only on the main characters and the important story-related things they are doing in each scene.

You can also have important characters, main characters or side characters, casually doing things that aren't directly related to whatever story-related activity is happening within the scene. Let's say your MC is walking through a city street on the way to an important meeting and he spots a group of children who are playing some form of soccer; he casually summons wind to knock the ball away from whichever child has possession of it. This, at least, shows the magic being used outside combat. But better yet might be: have that main character's guide, an unnamed ad hoc character who'll play no other role in the story, do that casually–this shows that magic is being used by relatively unimportant people in various non-combat ways.

Highlight the magical permeation by having your characters notice when it's not being used.

So, to borrow an example from Skip:

Two main characters are having a discussion, and one complains about profits taking a hit because the damn fool of a captain he'd hired to transport cargo set sail from Byortish without a wind-controller on board, and a storm swept in, sending the ship into the rocks. Most of the cargo was lost. This, also, could be a casual mention during conversation rather than something plot-related.

Ok, so the common threads in the examples above:

  • Magic use doesn't happen only as the plot demands it.
  • Magic use isn't only used by the important main and side characters.
  • The important characters aren't shocked, surprised, particularly intrigued by its common use. I.e., it's mundane, a given. (But they might take particular notice when it's not used, as in the case of the foolish ship captain. So the absence of its use is the "exception to the rule.")

When planning scenes, plan for doing these things in the background or seemingly-casually. But you don't need to do this constantly for every scene. Bits and pieces, here and there, will give the reader the impression you are wanting them to have.
I like this too. It means I don't have to go about restructuring my world for the new magic. That being said, the Siphoners in my world have a muddled reputation in many nations. With some policies on them ranging from execution to being a second-class citizen to being a normal member of society.

But now that I think about it, this could lead to interesting dynamics in how the nations contrast with one another. Hot damn, the ideas are actually coming to me. This thread is the best choice I've made in a while!

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Hi Net,

I think having read your post that your magic system is most confusing - in part I think because of the terminology you use. For a start a person doesn't normally make contact with his astral projection - he astrally projects himself. And what you're trying to convey as a concept is a person trying to make contact with himself - which is really weird. I think you can simplify this enormously and not lose what I think is what you're actually trying to get at.

So a person astral projects - ie sends his awareness into another realm - call it the astral realm. There, because it is a place which does not obey the rules of the normal world he cannot operate in it as he normally would. Instead he has to create a mental image of the world - like a road map. But the map is incomplete and the roads marked only take him to certain parts of the astral realm. If he could access all parts of the astral realm he would be something akin to a god.

In this astral realm there exist beings - elementals if you like, but I'd suggest they are more akin to spirit guides. And they are able to facilitate the connection between certain types of astoral energy in the astral world and objects in the real world - a sort of mediator. Alternatively the wizard may instead be able to control them and thus they become sort of slaves doing his bidding - but, which might be fun to work with, there is an ongoing battle of wills between the two, so the spells don't always work as desired. Fireballs fizzle and winds blow the wrong way etc.

This system then leads to a world where wizards require inate ability and training, and probably many years learning their craft. So magic becomes the province of only a few, and those few require patronage of some sort to grow their skills. The military provides a form of patronage for those who have magic they can use. Maybe you have guilds too for certain magic trades - healing etc.

Hope that helps.

Cheers, Greg.
 
Hi Net,

I think having read your post that your magic system is most confusing - in part I think because of the terminology you use. For a start a person doesn't normally make contact with his astral projection - he astrally projects himself. And what you're trying to convey as a concept is a person trying to make contact with himself - which is really weird. I think you can simplify this enormously and not lose what I think is what you're actually trying to get at.

So a person astral projects - ie sends his awareness into another realm - call it the astral realm. There, because it is a place which does not obey the rules of the normal world he cannot operate in it as he normally would. Instead he has to create a mental image of the world - like a road map. But the map is incomplete and the roads marked only take him to certain parts of the astral realm. If he could access all parts of the astral realm he would be something akin to a god.

In this astral realm there exist beings - elementals if you like, but I'd suggest they are more akin to spirit guides. And they are able to facilitate the connection between certain types of astoral energy in the astral world and objects in the real world - a sort of mediator. Alternatively the wizard may instead be able to control them and thus they become sort of slaves doing his bidding - but, which might be fun to work with, there is an ongoing battle of wills between the two, so the spells don't always work as desired. Fireballs fizzle and winds blow the wrong way etc.

This system then leads to a world where wizards require inate ability and training, and probably many years learning their craft. So magic becomes the province of only a few, and those few require patronage of some sort to grow their skills. The military provides a form of patronage for those who have magic they can use. Maybe you have guilds too for certain magic trades - healing etc.

Hope that helps.

Cheers, Greg.
Thanks. Forgive the terminology, as Astral Projection is something different in my world than the spiritual concept in the real world. In my world, two versions of an individual exist across two paralell realms of being.

There is the spiritual version of a person, composed of Astral Energy, and there is the physical body of the person. In other words, the Astral Projection and the regular human body. When I say making contact with one's Astral Projection, I mean getting in touch with the version of oneself that already exists within the Astral Plane. One's spiritual body dwells in the Astral Plane, whereas, one's physical body is relegated to the mortal plane. Only through Siphoning Energy from the Astral Body is it possible to manipulate the elements in the real world.

Sorry if it seemed confusing.

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Hi Net,

Sorry, as a reader I won't buy that. Essentially you're saying that one person is two people who don't really have any connection - which ultimately means they are two different people. And your terminology just makes this fuzzy. When you say a person connects with himself, I would have initially said that you meant something new agey like a person getting in touch with himself. But this is clearly not what you're saying. You're saying there are two different people in two different realms and they're actually talking to one another - mentally or otherwise.

I really think this concept needs work, and you absolutely have to use precise language, not new agey words that don't really marry up with your scenario. It just confuses me.

Dump the "astral projection" for a start. What you are describing is not that. It is a separate entity in astral space with which you wizard can have contact. So for example if your wizard was named Greg, you could call the other one, astral Greg!

Cheers, Greg.
 
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skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
I, too, was a bit confused about the term. I was able to see readily enough that the OP did not mean the same thing as the usual definition of the phrase, so I let that go. But I do agree it's confusing. You might consider using another phrase, even something similar. This is, of course, a challenge we all face in writing fantasy--we cannot assume our readers will understand a word the same way we do when we write it.
 
I had visualized the corporeal/astral split to be something like self/hidden self or conscious mind/unconscious mind but with these two split, and the Siphoners being able to connect the two, consciously, whereas a non-Siphoner might go through a whole life never being able to access that astral portion.

The concept itself didn't bother me. Often I've wondered about mind, and what is it, and does it exist elsewhere, with the brain sorta acting as a doorway connecting it to me. This is purely a fiction; but it's something I've contemplated.

A person existing on two planes, or rather a person having a shadow analogue in another plane, but being unaware of this isn't so strange for me to picture. For some reason, Einstein's "spooky action at a distance," or quantum entanglement, keeps coming to mind, heh.

The actual terminology used could cause problems for a reader. "Projection" really does carry with it the idea of something being projected from one place to another, and astral projection might bring images of Dr. Strange being shoved out of his body (or leaving it willfully) or any number of the 100 or so other examples of the idea's use that already exist.

Then again, if the Siphoner is doing precisely this, projecting his astral self to another plane where it'll connect with something else there...this could lead to the idea there are three selves to consider: the corporeal, the astral, and the something that is always on the astral plane.

Otherwise, perhaps you could work it so that everyone constantly "projects" their astral self to this other plane—i.e., all the people already do this, as a part of the nature of your world—but most are unaware that this has happened. Only the Siphoners are able to become conscious of this connection to the astral plane, in order to "reconnect" with their astral selves.

I think the idea itself is probably fine, but working out the terminology might be an issue, and either way execution will be key in selling it.
 
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I had visualized the corporeal/astral split to be something like self/hidden self or conscious mind/unconscious mind but with these two split, and the Siphoners being able to connect the two, consciously, whereas a non-Siphoner might go through a whole life never being able to access that astral portion.

The concept itself didn't bother me. Often I've wondered about mind, and what is it, and does it exist elsewhere, with the brain sorta acting as a doorway connecting it to me. This is purely a fiction; but it's something I've contemplated.

A person existing on two planes, or rather a person having a shadow analogue in another plane, but being unaware of this isn't so strange for me to picture. For some reason, Einstein's "spooky action at a distance," or quantum entanglement, keeps coming to mind, heh.

The actual terminology used could cause problems for a reader. "Projection" really does carry with it the idea of something being projected from one place to another, and astral projection might bring images of Dr. Strange being shoved out of his body (or leaving it willfully) or any number of the 100 or so other examples of the idea's use that already exist.

Then again, if the Siphoner is doing precisely this, projecting his astral self to another plane where it'll connect with something else there...this could lead to the idea there are three selves to consider: the corporeal, the astral, and the something that is always on the astral plane.

Otherwise, perhaps you could work it so that everyone constantly "projects" their astral self to this other plane–i.e., all the people already do this, as a part of the nature of your world–but most are unaware that this has happened. Only the Siphoners are able to become conscious of this connection to the astral plane, in order to "reconnect" with their astral selves.

I think the idea itself is probably fine, but working out the terminology might be an issue, and either way execution will be key in selling it.
Come to think of it, you have a point. Do you think Astral "Body" would be less confusing?

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