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Pantheon, One God, or no God?

Ifritus

Dreamer
So I'm hoping this post might turn into a helpful discussion/debate into the problems around gods in fantasy.

So first let me pose a few questions...

God, or no God?
Okay so God exists... must there be an Enemy?
Wait, there's more than one god... it's a Pantheon!
So wait, I have to worship All these gods, but I don't like the idea of worshipping death?

Ahem. So, in my quest to eventually turn idle thoughts into something concrete. I have decided to do a little world building (a downward spiral yes). And the first thing that I immediately decided without thought, was that there would be a pantheon. Not a single god, or a light/dark duo. But multiple entities that have rule of specific areas of life/death etc.

I also made the distinction of thinking that the gods were actual divine beings, not say awesomely powerful magic users. (However the gods can and do use magic, that is unfathomable to in world users)

My main question to the collective here is: WHAT would the societal/political/other effects of these different "god systems" be?
Say the difference between the One God (who could go many ways Himself from passive watcher, to enforcer. Against say a pantheon of 12+.

My first impression is that similar to Feists pantheon in the Riftwar saga, that people would be free to choose who they worship, and from that devout "churches" for each god/goddess would spring up.

But... should there be a main body that governs the separate churches (I'm leaning towards a mother/father "god" idea who then have twins, who themselves then create (not birth) the other gods) so perhaps the churches of the parent gods oversee the others?
Or perhaps they all want worshipped as a collective?/ in the sense that although a person may be devout to one god/goddess, he/she must still pay homage to the other 12+

I'm also keeping in mind the idea of human nature, and the passing of time. In the sense that portrayals of gods, and worship in general will evolve with time.

I apologise if this seems like a ramble but hey, it is something to think about.
I appreciate any thoughts you guys might have.
 

elemtilas

Inkling
So I'm hoping this post might turn into a helpful discussion/debate into the problems around gods in fantasy.

So first let me pose a few questions...

God, or no God?
Okay so God exists... must there be an Enemy?

No, there doesn't have to be. There were countless ages before Lucifer rebelled. There were countless ages before Melkor rebelled. No enemy, but the potential for one.

Another possibility: I once wrote a story where the humans came to learn that "God" was, in fact, the enemy.



Wait, there's more than one god... it's a Pantheon!
So wait, I have to worship All these gods, but I don't like the idea of worshipping death?

Ahem. So, in my quest to eventually turn idle thoughts into something concrete. I have decided to do a little world building (a downward spiral yes).

Or an upward, depending on your perspective!

My main question to the collective here is: WHAT would the societal/political/other effects of these different "god systems" be?
Say the difference between the One God (who could go many ways Himself from passive watcher, to enforcer. Against say a pantheon of 12+.

My first impression is that similar to Feists pantheon in the Riftwar saga, that people would be free to choose who they worship, and from that devout "churches" for each god/goddess would spring up.

This is called individual consecration. As I recall, this was a common practice among the Norse. Loads of gods, but an individual consecrated his own life to a particular god.

But... should there be a main body that governs the separate churches (I'm leaning towards a mother/father "god" idea who then have twins, who themselves then create (not birth) the other gods) so perhaps the churches of the parent gods oversee the others?

This is a matter of ecclesiology. Perhaps if you have a large centralising imperial structure, you might see such a situation. You might have a secular emperor and a religious high priest that oversees all the various churches. I can't really see this kind of structure evolving naturally among otherwise independent & different religions. It would have to be imposed from outside.


Or perhaps they all want worshipped as a collective?/ in the sense that although a person may be devout to one god/goddess, he/she must still pay homage to the other 12+

Possible. Temple architecture might mimic a great hall then: the center of public worship might be in the hall where icons of the Twelve reside all together. Along the galleries, perhaps you'll find chapels more suited to individual worship. A devotee of Sandikert might have to enter the main hall first, where he'll pay homage to the One and then the Twins and also greet the Twelve. After those rites, he can go down into the grotto where the main icon of Sandikert resides and perform the rites particular to his own worship there.

I'm also keeping in mind the idea of human nature, and the passing of time. In the sense that portrayals of gods, and worship in general will evolve with time.

Yes. And no.

Primary world example: the Christian liturgy, for all the reforms it has suffered the last few decades (in the West) remains largely and fundamentally unchanged since the first century AD. A Christian of that era might be surprised at the splendor of a modern cathedral (as well as the open nature of its existence), but in the Orthodox or Catholic liturgies he would instantly recognise something quite familiar.


I apologise if this seems like a ramble but hey, it is something to think about.
I appreciate any thoughts you guys might have.

I like a good ramble.
 

Mythopoet

Auror
Let me respond to your series of questions with a series of questions.

God, or no God?

I think the very first thing you need to ask yourself is: What exactly is a "god" in this world? Is it a very powerful supernatural being that desires worship? Is it a concept or a story that humans have invented? Is it a natural force of the world? Is it a creator? Is there only one type of "god" or are there different types? Maybe there is a creator who is a "god" but there are also supernatural creatures that call themselves "gods" to lesser races, etc.

Okay so God exists... must there be an Enemy?

This one is simple. No. There doesn't have to be an enemy.

So wait, I have to worship All these gods, but I don't like the idea of worshipping death?

What do you mean by "worship"? By definition, worship is "reverence and adoration". I think you would be hard pressed to find any civilization ever that felt "adoration" toward the concept of death. Gods of death tend to come in many varieties. They might be gods who reign over the dead/afterlife and are not so much worshiped as held in fear/awe. They might be gods who cause death and are feared and placated as much as possible. They might be gods who oversee the process of death and entrance into the afterlife and are held in awe and reverence depending on what their part in the drama is.

I also made the distinction of thinking that the gods were actual divine beings, not say awesomely powerful magic users.

Saying they are "divine beings" is basically saying they are "being of, from or like God". It doesn't clarify anything, really. Where do these "gods" come from? Are they born, made or simply have always existed?


My main question to the collective here is: WHAT would the societal/political/other effects of these different "god systems" be?


Pantheistic religions generally spring up when different groups of people in different areas who worship different gods come into contact with each other and start telling stories about their gods and trying to fit them into the world together. A great example of this is in ancient Egypt where it appears that worship of different gods rose to prominence in different areas and cities but as the nation became more unified there was a need to figure out how all these gods interacted with each other and the world at large. Pantheists are likely to acknowledge many gods but worship either the most "important" ones to their lives (farmers worshiping rain gods or gods of earth, etc.) or the most prominent ones in the place where they live (if there is a temple to a certain god in your city, you are more likely to worship that god than one who doesn't have a temple in your city).

An important question to ask before you can know how a religion or pantheon will affect your world is: how real are these gods? We know that Re and Osiris and Isis, etc. were not actual real gods so we can view the ancient Egyptian religion as a human phenomenon but you might not be able to do that in a fantasy world. Do these beings really exist? If so, what is the extent of their power? How often do they manifest themselves in the mundane world? What is their relationship with the people there? If the gods are real, it is far more likely for the gods to affect human society than for human society to affect the pantheon of gods.
 

Insolent Lad

Maester
God, or no God? Even the gods in my stories tend to debate whether there is 'One' who created everything. I prefer to keep that guy out of the picture and let them (and humans) go about their business!

Okay so God exists... must there be an Enemy?
It certainly makes for more interesting storytelling. And sort of explains why 'evil' exists. But that question could be left open too, couldn't it?

Wait, there's more than one god... it's a Pantheon! and So wait, I have to worship All these gods, but I don't like the idea of worshiping death? I'm inclined to ask 'What can this god do for me? Is it worth my while to worship him/her and gain his/her favor?' Not all gods would necessarily want or need to be worshiped, maybe. Those who do had better provide some service to their devotees in exchange or their temples will be empty. Even the evil gods must have something to offer. Now if they are just an imaginary pantheon, none of that matters, of course, and the religions are purely social constructs.
 
My main question to the collective here is: WHAT would the societal/political/other effects of these different "god systems" be?

I wouldn't think the "god systems" -- the presence or absence of gods or the number of gods -- would affect society and politics as much as the nature of the gods that populate those systems and the specific beliefs of the population. An atheist country might look similar to a country with many gods, with in-world celebrities taking the place of gods as objects of reverence.

On modern-day Earth, countries exist that are populated by atheists living next door to religious folk, some of whom believe in one god, some of whom believe in multiple gods. How does that affect the society and politics of the country? It puts segments of the population at odds with each other, and divides the country along ideological boundaries, not geographical ones.

If everyone in a country were atheist, would that make them all of a same mind politically or socially? I think not. People can always find plenty to disagree about.

If everyone believed in the same god or group of gods, would that bring everyone together politically or socially? I can tell you that even within a given religion, you'll find people who disagree with each other on religious matters.

And when people disagree, there's no telling what they might disagree about, or how they will act towards each other because of the disagreement.

So, I'd say choose the "god system" that will enable you to tell the story you want to tell. In fantasy, everything is possible. Keep the story self-consistent, and all is good.
 

Ifritus

Dreamer
Wow folks, thanks for the insights! Certainly didn't expect as much at the same time. I'm currently in the middle of some globetrotting, so hopefully when I get to the final destination, I can stew on these some more but for now


Elemtilas:
thanks for the phrase! "Individual consecration" I'll definitely research that more.

When you explain the collective & individual coexisting is does sound rather a stretch?

Perhaps taking the human nature thing and say that while the two originals get individuals, the worshippers themselves few they deserve more reverence?/
---
Ah mythopoet
questions with questions... I like it!

So: combining the divine beings/ god questions.

The two original gods are the purest expression I would say. Since in my evolving creating myth there was only the ethereal plane, with two anti ethical forms of energy... Order & Chaos. As aeons come and go these energies somehow gain sentience, and are fed up of the endless sparring... so they attempt mutual destruction, and in so doing, split themselves in half. Create the physical plane, and the Twins, who are the first beings to have any physical form.
-
So to answer the Question of Divinity. That would be any being whose makeup is at least half ethereal.
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Awesome description of pantheistic religion, however I'm tempted to say that I want differring religions within the world but how would that pass when as you put it... the gods are Real? but of course that might not be how it happens.

I can say they are real, since they are partially physical beings, and in my "history" they can and do interfere when humans do stupid shit (sometimes beforehand to stop it and guide, or afterwards to punish.

I'll split the post here since it will get a bit long just shortly
 

Ifritus

Dreamer
Insolentlad:

So, I would say that the two originals are going to be like your description, more passive... since they themselves are purely ethereal, they let their children do the active god stuff while they work behind the scenes doing what they do.

As for the evil thing, I'm actually quite certain I don't want and evil Lord or Big Evil. It's more of a case on the morality and philosophical ideas on human nature. In my world, I'm leaning on sorcerers being chaos biased souls, since lore wise magic is Chaos. which leads them to erratic, perhaps passionate choices? Whereas order biased souls, are more rational and whilst they still have the capacity for instinctual behaviour it is less prominent.
--
You hit it on the head with the "what do the gods give" essentially, the gods give the devout access to "godly magic"

I've just had a little impulsive thought there - what if, secretly the churches as a whole, are run by sorcerers (in world at the Time of View, a century or so after an Event) magic users are hated, feared, and ostracised. I'm contemplating rules here, since while a sorcerer can see into the ether and watch what a god does(should he be lucky enough to witness it), he she can't actually comprehend their actions, they can understand the result and say the concept of how, but the method is beyond them. So could that make it redundant that the priests need to be magic users firstly before initiated?
--
Ahem, got a bit carried away there.
--

Michael:

Concise and helpful words there. So, it's more oof the case that the religions themselves aren't the problem, its the people?

And that society wise like you say it could lead them to being at odds and competing politically for the top position. (This gives me a great reason for my Event) since it's a civil war(again I thought of that for no specific reason ) and in said civil war, magic essentially went OP and the gods got angry.

So I would need to decide how society went about its business before the Event, and then how it evolved afterwards?
-
So, my setting the story up is that, in country a civil war has broke out over two major factions(motive unclear at the moment) (could it be the case that the two majors swallow up the minors to increase manpower?) and the penultimate battle consists the fight at Noname keep, and the area surrounding it. Magics and people clash etc. BUT in world, there are Seasons in the ether, which lend to certain magics being more powerful, and others weaker. It just so happens that Fire and frost are the ones this time.
The consequences here, is that military tech (in this case mages coming up with ideas) comes with the creation of Ever fire. Which cannot Ever go out on it own. except by being "dispelled" by the original caster. The downside is that because it doesn't go out, it's bound to where it lands it first touches, And it's twin, Unmelting Ice, is the opposite. The ice can't melt, but will slowly spread to whatever it touches.

So as you can imagine that might be a problem... Mage casts ever fire and then, gets killed. that fire cannot ever be put out!
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The Event however is that necromancers are rather jealous of the "flashy" powers of other mages, and one disgruntled master quests to see if he can Command the dead, rather than just talk to them.

This leads to the rather horrifying image of dead soldiers who may or may not be covered in fire or ice being used in a battle. This as you can imagine gets the god of life, goddess of death, and goddess of rebirth rather angry.
--
Aand I've rambled again. Somehow though it seems easier to think now that I'm writing it down...
 

elemtilas

Inkling
Wow folks, thanks for the insights! Certainly didn't expect as much at the same time. I'm currently in the middle of some globetrotting, so hopefully when I get to the final destination, I can stew on these some more but for now


Elemtilas:
thanks for the phrase! "Individual consecration" I'll definitely research that more.

Try here.

Perhaps taking the human nature thing and say that while the two originals get individuals, the worshippers themselves few they deserve more reverence?/

I'm sure individual worshippers could indeed feel that way! A little intrapantheonic rivalry?
 
Or you could have multiple characters actually debating whether there's a God or Gods or a Pantheon or none at all, based on their own beliefs, and potentially make it an integral part of the story.
 

SMAndy85

Minstrel
So wait, I have to worship All these gods, but I don't like the idea of worshipping death?

What do you mean by "worship"? By definition, worship is "reverence and adoration". I think you would be hard pressed to find any civilization ever that felt "adoration" toward the concept of death. Gods of death tend to come in many varieties. They might be gods who reign over the dead/afterlife and are not so much worshiped as held in fear/awe. They might be gods who cause death and are feared and placated as much as possible. They might be gods who oversee the process of death and entrance into the afterlife and are held in awe and reverence depending on what their part in the drama is.

This. I can't honestly think of any past civilisation (I'm likely wrong) that worships the concept of death.

In history, you had gods like Pluto & Hades. Essentially the same god from two pantheons. Disney's Hades was depicted as Evil, but in essence, he was a guardian of the dead. Yes, he had a couple of plans to usurp the throne from his brother, but hey! He still wasn't evil, per se.

A god of Death is a guardian of the spirits of the departed. He guides them to a place of eternal rest, or safeguards them until the cycle of reincarnation returns that soul to the world of the living.

In the real world, there are multiple religions that have different thoughts on the gods. If they are actual, real beings that exert power over the world, who's to say that different civilisations don't see them in different ways? Just because one group has a Pantheon of gods, where each god has power over a different aspect of life, doesn't mean another group couldn't have a capital-G-God, which is seen as one being with power over all.

The question to ask yourself there is... if that is the situation, is it actually one god, or multiple gods? If they are just abstract thought patterns of the people (to many, arguably the case in the real world), then the local religion would have a big hand in the development of the world. Multiple gods suggests multiple temples for praying to the various gods. If you pray to all of them at various times in your life, then so be it.

One thing that I like to remember is that every god has a place. Regarding your question about an "enemy", I like to think that every god has a place. Why else would a god that is widely considered evil ever exist? If you're praying to an "evil" god to ask to not be burned alive, surely that is a defeatist attitude, and that time would be better spent praying to a benevolent god to save you?

If there is an evil god, then it is likely there for balance reasons. A god of Destruction, because for new things to be created, the old must often disappear. New land/life rising from the ashes of the old. That isn't necessarily going to be an evil god, but one that people don't really want to meet in a dark alley.

Also, I love the idea of the gods from Terry Pratchett's discworld. A god gains power depending on the number of worshippers. A god of the harvest would therefore become REALLY powerful during harvest season, but likely languishes in an empty temple for the rest of the year. Is the cycle of summer/winter dependent on people believing that it is time for summer to rise, thus giving the god of summer enough power to make it happen?

Ok, there could be a truly evil god if someone managed to perform a magical ritual to raise themselves to godhood for their own ends, but then it would be highly unlikely anyone would worship them, apart from their followers during life, if they had any.
 

Eastwatcher

Dreamer
I found gods as a really tricky question for my book. I wanted both an overall mother deity and also a pantheon of gods under her, but I also wanted the conflict between religions and the growth of religious fanatics to be a key theme in my work. Because I had so many ideas for gods I initially went over the top. I had the All-Mother who created 8 pairs of gods that each embodied opposing aspects of a single theme. Each of these gods then had names that weren't all that easy to remember (e.g. Selt-Ear and Selt-ka for the pair of gods representing health and illness). The problem that arose with this for me was that, although I knew each god by their name and what they meant, it was all going to get very confusing for the reader. This issue was then compiled as the "magic users" in my book each gain their powers from sharing a bloodline to specific god, further increasing the quantity of knowledge needed to be memorized in order for the reader to get their bearings.
When I finally decided to rewrite my entire novel from scratch last year I had to make some tough choices create an end product that could be enjoyed by anyone, not just someone with a photographic memory for weird names and associated divine powers. I cut 16 gods down to 12, merging some aspects that I didn't want to lose and axing one's that weren't entirely necessary. I also changed their names to titles (e.g. Selt-Ear became The Maiden and Selt-Ka became The Cripple), basically making everything easier for the reader to grasp. In my book nobody doubts that the gods are real, but the friction between the two major religions comes from the interpretation of the gods' actions in the past, as they no longer take a proactive roles in people's lives. This allowed me to then create two opposing faiths that share a common ancestry but differ on in their fundamental beliefs. I then used the core beliefs of the two religions to build the societies that worship them, or at least I did in my rewrite.
There is no good god and no evil god in my work, as this is something I wanted to see more in the fantasy genera. There are merely people trying to survive and improve their lot in life, and I wanted the gods that created them to mirror this. Even the god of death and decay (the aforementioned Cripple) has his place, as without death, there could never be the renewal of life. Some writers enjoy their Saurons or their Dark Ones to give a tangible force for which your heroes can fight against, but I personally am a bigger fan of the pantheon of competing gods, as it allows for a lot more creativity and variance. It also humanizes the deities and makes them fallible.
For my work at least, I believed that if you want the gods to play a key point in the story, the reader must be able to grasp the dynamics of how they work, why they do the things they do, and why people worship them. Having a simple good/bad dynamic is an easy way around this can can be used to magnificent effect if done well, but if you want multiple gods that are memorable I believe you have to build them as you would any character.
 

Gurkhal

Auror
I think that many authors struggle needlessly with gods due to a lack of focus. I know I did for a long time.

Rather than just create a pantheon I think it would be better to determine what role the pantheon will have in the story and world and develop it from there, and it will hopefully help to avoid the world-building diesese.

In my VIP project I have an ancient Greece settings to a Greek-inspired pantheon is a given as the core of it. And to that I will add and withdraw stuff according to the needs of the story and what role I want the religion to play. For example I am envisoning to use religion as a way to demonstrate a community's or person's connections with the wider world. Thus if the characters comes to a community which is fairly isolated and don't interact much, they'll find arachaic Mycenaean gods in their temples and a conservative or insular person might worship only Hellenic deities while someone who has an eye to the wider world might have easily picked up a foreign deity or even have a compound deity to sacrifice to, like Aphrodite-Astarte. And so on.

But since I don't intend the gods to ever take direct action into the world, I don't need to fret overtly much on their personalitie s or powers. Their symbolism will be the important part.
 

DMThaane

Sage
I'm very much in agreement with Gurkhal. When I'm creating a world I ask myself pretty early on whether or not the divine will play a direct role or not. If it will then I design it based on the role I need it to take in the story. If it won't then I design it based on the themes or society I'm interested in. Religion informs culture and vice versa and if the divine doesn't come into direct play than it often doesn't even matter if the gods are real or not, or if they're worshipped accurately or not. It's the belief that matters.

For instance in one world I wanted them to have a somewhat unique perspective on death so I made their death figure a child. This is a culture that believes that death is innocent, that death doesn't understand the pain it causes to others. In another world there is a divine entity but no one actually worships it, instead following dozens of different religions that sometimes reflect this divine entity but very often don't. In another universe Elohim is the creator but on one particular world a splinter group of angels has set up shop and custom tailored their gospel to appeal to the locals, merging divine law with cultural tropes that praise things like honourable combat and enlightened conquest. This is a world of farces and shadow wars, of people doing the right things for the wrong reasons and the wrong things for the right reasons. Elohim isn't particularly relevant to this world or the stories that occur on it but the Kathor Faith, led by the Angelic Order, very much is.

The key question is how does this serve the story you're trying to tell.
 

Ifritus

Dreamer
Awesome food for though people... thanks again I like the idea of asking myself the questions and seeing what answers I come up with.

Most importantly I think YES the gods will be active in the world. Perhaps more important is that key figures of humanity are given the opportunity to "serve" after death as Demi-gods... so I'm thinking that as an over arching motive plot for certain character following certain gods.

part of that is determining HOW active they are... which is still undetermined.

As for the death worship thing... my world has a theme of Balance, where you have Order, Chaos and Balance aspects of stuff.. meaning most gods/goddessss are grouped as a trio... such as the God of life, Goddess of death, and the goddess of rebirth. My world will have a rebirth aspect where people's "souls" continually evolve of time.
So perhaps as death worship goes, it might not be such a negative aspect in my work. But I guess even the idea of being reborn a totally different person would scare the shit out of people not wanting their current self to end prematurely?
--
One of my main characters is going to be "working" for the Goddess of death, though secretly (in world lore would teach that she punished him to undeath for the crimes of his master) but in reality he technically is the hero of the Event I've mentioned previously... he realises much to late his master seeked to command the dead, and while he was happy to discuss the theory of it... the reality sickens him, and he eventually has to battle for control of the dead army from his master and release them from control. (Read - the consequence of necromantic binding slowly dissolves the victims soul as fuel... rendering them "shadows" and unable to be reborn.)

fast forward a hundred or so years and you've got the current timeline, where thE primary MC runs a bookshop, but is an Informant if you ask in the right circles. (Since in my world, necromancy goes to its more traditional roots as a divining power)

I've got lots to think about when I get home,
Cheers again folks!
 
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