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How to dragon

megamoo

Dreamer
I'm writing epic fantasy with magic and dragons and I'm trying to decide what my dragons will look like.

I originally had envisioned many different breeds of dragons but the main one is basically like a horse with wings because they are used by people like horses that can fly.

Looking at pictures and other descriptions of dragons there seem to be two general types. One is the pegasus type, four legs plus wings. And the other is two back legs and the front legs are the wings, which I think of as a bat type.

I'm looking to make the beasts as realistic as possible. I cannot think of a real world creature comparison that has wings and more than two legs, except for insects.

I know could just say its my world and I can have whatever because - magic. But it really feels like a cop-out.

When you think about how an arm or wing attaches to a body there are lots of muscles and tendons etc. and I can't visualize how a double shoulder would work.

Anyone have any ideas of real animals that have wings and distinct front legs?
 

Viorp

Minstrel
You can't have a realistic dragon though... nothing of the size of a dragon could possibly fly...

If you want something realistic at most you could create giant, leaping reptiles which spit acid.
 

Insolent Lad

Maester
I did my dragons on the bat principle. It just made more sense. And not all that big because, yes, a heavy dragon couldn't get off the ground, much less fly any distance. The same, incidentally, with griffins.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
Realism is overrated. An albatross can fly while sleeping. It can also stay airborne for over a year. Without the scientific proof of this, who among us would have invented such a creature and called it realistic?

Besides, we do not deal in what is real. We write fiction. We deal in what *resembles* reality. We serve up as many as six impossible things before breakfast.
 

Malik

Auror
I made my pegasi enchanted horses, bred by wizards in a highly guarded operation in a remote tower; essentially, restricted military technology. In my world, the wings are superfluous but function as a safety feature, so that no one will accidentally steal a flying horse and find himself a mile in the air.

There's no way a winged horse could ever fly, and no way I could ever make it workable, so I used handwavium. Because magic exists in my world, and flying horses fall directly into that category. However, I did spend weeks designing a functional pegasus saddle that solves a few issues that no other authors have seemed to have thought of, and the saddle design has generated many kudos from my readers, especially from those who ride horses and had the same questions about a pegasus that I did. Pick your battles, is what I'm saying, here. YMMV.
 

Aurora

Sage
Hm. There are dragons in my world that I have yet to use. This might be an unpopular opinion around these parts but I kept them as basic as possible. Think of your average dragon. I think it's easier for readers to connect with something they already know. So mine aren't anything fancy. Besides, I love dragons unaltered. Meaning, what they turn out like in your world will reflect your love and the type of readers you're trying to reach.
 

Aurora

Sage
If you have magic in the world, how is having something fuction because of magic a copout? Now, if it doesn't fit the system of magic you've designed, I could see an issue. But otherwise? Meh. Roll with it.

I love your response. Nothing irritates me more than when I read suggestions on how magic shouldn't be used for problem solving. So long as it's in a freaking fantasy world then why does it matter?
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
Yeah, I have dragons who were at the creation of the world... they laid their eggs in the budding energies of the world, and those children have evolved (or de-evolved... whip it, whip it good) into creatures we'd recognize as dragons. The First Dragons were interdimensional beings, more like the Chinese dragon in appearance than Western.

I love your response. Nothing irritates me more than when I read suggestions on how magic shouldn't be used for problem solving. So long as it's in a freaking fantasy world then why does it matter?
 

Aurora

Sage
Yeah, I have dragons who were at the creation of the world... they laid their eggs in the budding energies of the world, and those children have evolved (or de-evolved... whip it, whip it good) into creatures we'd recognize as dragons. The First Dragons were interdimensional beings, more like the Chinese dragon in appearance than Western.
That's super cool! I'm not so creative and mine are considered ancient lol. This means there's a lot of mystery surrounding their existence. One of the novels in my current series will focus more on their lore, which gives me a few months to think about it.
 
Looking at pictures and other descriptions of dragons there seem to be two general types. One is the pegasus type, four legs plus wings. And the other is two back legs and the front legs are the wings, which I think of as a bat type.

I thought that technically the 2-leg variety are really wyverns and the 4-leg variety are dragons.

This is kinda funny because, as has been pointed out, you can do whatever you want. There's no "real" involved concerning dragons.

But I do wonder if the wyvern vs dragon classification is something that might be noticed by some readers, since the discussion of the difference is old. So maybe if you made a 2-leg variety and called it "dragon," some diehards might object.

I could be entirely wrong though. I think Dany on GoT is done well, for the 2-leg variety. And everyone's fine with calling those dragons.

Personally, if I were going to do it, I'd make it so that the 2-leg variety can run fast too. I'd build off the idea of this: Funny Running Lizard - YouTube. But also, I'd be thinking of Chocobos hah.

I believe the evolutionary track of life on earth has led to the two-leg + wings configurations, since wings are basically the arms/forelegs that other animals have. The biggest difference would be insects; but, that's more than four legs.
 
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Queshire

Auror
It's actually quite interesting how specialized birds are to fly. Their bones are hollow, their breast muscles are proportionally gigantic to be able to flap their wings and you know all those birds that poop on people's cars? There's no maliciousness in it. They're physically incapable of controlling when they poop. They just get rid of their waste as soon as they possible can to get rid of whatever extra weight they can.

I have seen some works have dragons with large bladders in their body filled with lighter than air gases to help reduce their weight. If it's a flammable gas that helps with the fire breath too. Bit funny to imagine dragons as basically large biological blimps though.

I think one good way to add a bit of realism would be to consider the position you ride them in. Take a look at a bat;

Big-eared-townsend-fledermaus.jpg


The only way you could ride that like a horse was if they basically pierced the wing membrane and put in hoops for you to put your legs in through. Most likely you would have to ride it like one of those stupidly fast motorcycles with your belly to the back of the dragon and your butt in the air. Or maybe sit in front of the wings with your legs around the neck?

Still, all three options provide a bit more depth.
 
I'm writing epic fantasy with magic and dragons and I'm trying to decide what my dragons will look like.

I originally had envisioned many different breeds of dragons but the main one is basically like a horse with wings because they are used by people like horses that can fly.

Looking at pictures and other descriptions of dragons there seem to be two general types. One is the pegasus type, four legs plus wings. And the other is two back legs and the front legs are the wings, which I think of as a bat type.

I'm looking to make the beasts as realistic as possible. I cannot think of a real world creature comparison that has wings and more than two legs, except for insects.

I know could just say its my world and I can have whatever because - magic. But it really feels like a cop-out.

When you think about how an arm or wing attaches to a body there are lots of muscles and tendons etc. and I can't visualize how a double shoulder would work.

Anyone have any ideas of real animals that have wings and distinct front legs?

Implausible dragons is one of the most forgivable implausibilities for readers. Why? Dragons are friggin awesome.

(I should know. I am a dragon, and I am awesome.)

But, if plausibility is important to you, your dragons likely will have to be restricted to the two legs and two wings type. Forelegs and wings together just doesn't work. Birds have a keeled breastbone (except the ones that don't fly) and the powerful muscles required to move the wings anchor there. Forelegs probably would get in the way of this. Even if you could make it work, the forelegs couldn't be very powerful, which is bad, since the forelegs bear most of the weight in a four footed animal and powerful forelegs are needed to do things like run and seize prey with the front claws. If the forelegs aren't very useful, why have them?

My dragons have four legs and wings. Why? I wanted them to. Dragons are cool enough that readers will accept them because DRAGONS.

I did decide that a warm blooded, more mammal like creature was better for how i envisioned a dragon, which led to my dragons having feathers and fur instead of batlike wings and scales. This was more a stylistic choice than a realism choice though. I envision dragons as active, intelligent creatures capable of forming complex social bonds with both their own species and humans. These characteristics are more typical of birds and mammals than reptiles, which tend to be not very social, not very active, and not very intelligent that I know of. Plus, feathers are easier to draw, and fur is cuddlier.
 
It's actually quite interesting how specialized birds are to fly. Their bones are hollow, their breast muscles are proportionally gigantic to be able to flap their wings and you know all those birds that poop on people's cars? There's no maliciousness in it. They're physically incapable of controlling when they poop. They just get rid of their waste as soon as they possible can to get rid of whatever extra weight they can.

I have seen some works have dragons with large bladders in their body filled with lighter than air gases to help reduce their weight. If it's a flammable gas that helps with the fire breath too. Bit funny to imagine dragons as basically large biological blimps though.

I think one good way to add a bit of realism would be to consider the position you ride them in. Take a look at a bat;

Big-eared-townsend-fledermaus.jpg


The only way you could ride that like a horse was if they basically pierced the wing membrane and put in hoops for you to put your legs in through. Most likely you would have to ride it like one of those stupidly fast motorcycles with your belly to the back of the dragon and your butt in the air. Or maybe sit in front of the wings with your legs around the neck?

Still, all three options provide a bit more depth.

As for dragon riding, what about lying flat across the dragon's back?

If you had a sling or something you could even ride underneath the dragon, belly to belly, gripping its belly with your knees.

But, yes, sitting with your legs in front of the wings might work.

Dragon riding is a whole new plausibility problem. You'd create a lot of drag sitting up there, and who knows if it could even carry you? Your bones aren't hollow. (I mean, they could be, if you're not a human.) Not to mention you would shift the dragon's center of gravity. I feel like that would cause problems.

A dragon with forelegs could, like...just hold you against its chest as it flew. Provided its front legs didn't get too tired. But if it needed its front legs to land...
 

CupofJoe

Myth Weaver
(I should know. I am a dragon, and I am awesome.)
And that will be my affirmation for the day! Thank you!

Most likely you would have to ride it like one of those stupidly fast motorcycles with your belly to the back of the dragon and your butt in the air.
I have Messenger Wyverns that are ridden this way. The Riders have to peer past the neck to make sure they are going the right way.
 

TheKillerBs

Maester
I wish I could have answered earlier, but my car decided to die on me so I didn't have the time to sit down and give the in-depth reply I wanted to give.

First, I want to echo everyone who said not to let realism get in the way of awesome. Awesome sticks to people. No one is ever going to remember a work because it's so realistic. They'll remember it if it leaves an impression. Awesome stuff, by definition, leaves an impression. Now, that does not mean that realism doesn't have its place. It does. And often, by imposing a limit like "make it realistic" you can come up with an awesome idea, which might be awesomer than the original idea.

Second, reality gives more leeway than people might lead you to believe, as skip mentioned with the albatross. For example, the arbitrary limit of "horse-sized" or the keeled breastbone. The largest pterosaurs ever found were giraffe-sized. That's significantly bigger than a horse. Now, there is some debate about whether or not these pterosaurs were actually able to fly, but there are other pterosaurs that were still bigger than horses and their ability to fly is not questioned as much. Last I checked though, it seemed that the pendulum was swinging toward the likes of Hatzegopteryx and Quetzalcoatlus being fliers again. On the subject of keeled breastbones, pterosaurs and bats(!) don't have very pronounced keels, yet are able to flap and fly just fine.

With all that out of the way, how could one do a realistic hexapod dragon? Well, first idea that comes to mind is to take one of these giant pterosaurs and give it T-rex arms. Vestigial limbs. Boom. There we go. But that seems a little unsatisfying. Also, the fact that they are vestigial limbs means that at some point, its ancestors had bigger forelegs and wings. So how might that have looked like? Well, we could attach a smaller secondary shoulder blade below and behind the wings' shoulder blades. This creature would presumably have evolved from a completely terrestrial hexapod, and its front legs became the wings, and the second pair of legs became the front legs. These would have their own muscle group, completely independent from the wings'. I sketched a crude picture of how the skeleton might work.

dragonskelly.png


Another, less satifying (for me, anyway) way would be to take the real life dragon. It's a lizard with extended ribs, which work as pseudo-wings. If you were to scale it up to horse-sized or larger, the rib "wings" would need to extend by a lot more. Large enough that it would give the illusion of actual wings. Still, it would only be able to glide, not fly.

Anyway. I hope this helps. Either way, I had a lot of fun procrastinating with this thought experiment so thanks a lot, OP.
 

Insolent Lad

Maester
I did decide that a warm blooded, more mammal like creature was better for how i envisioned a dragon, which led to my dragons having feathers and fur instead of batlike wings and scales. This was more a stylistic choice than a realism choice though. I envision dragons as active, intelligent creatures capable of forming complex social bonds with both their own species and humans. These characteristics are more typical of birds and mammals than reptiles, which tend to be not very social, not very active, and not very intelligent that I know of. Plus, feathers are easier to draw, and fur is cuddlier.

I went mammalian for my dragons too. Essentially very large members of the weasel family—with wings. And the 'fire,' as in all creatures in that family, comes out of the other end of the animal.

As for the wyverns mentioned above, I chose to make them a completely different reptilian creature.
 

megamoo

Dreamer
Thanks everyone for the great responses.

First I should say when I said realistic what I really mean is believable. Obviously we're writing fantasy and dragons existing is already a super awesome conceit. Most people realize a creature as big as a horse would need extremely large and tough wings to get airborne, and then it's hard to imagine without magic and willing suspension of disbelief.

All dragons in my world are creatures of magic, if indeed they are stupid beasts, and this assists them in flying. But saying that I don't want them to behave or read like levitating platforms.


I made my pegasi enchanted horses, bred by wizards in a highly guarded operation in a remote tower; essentially, restricted military technology. In my world, the wings are superfluous but function as a safety feature, so that no one will accidentally steal a flying horse and find himself a mile in the air.

There's no way a winged horse could ever fly, and no way I could ever make it workable, so I used handwavium. Because magic exists in my world, and flying horses fall directly into that category. However, I did spend weeks designing a functional pegasus saddle that solves a few issues that no other authors have seemed to have thought of, and the saddle design has generated many kudos from my readers, especially from those who ride horses and had the same questions about a pegasus that I did. Pick your battles, is what I'm saying, here. YMMV.


Yeah, I have dragons who were at the creation of the world... they laid their eggs in the budding energies of the world, and those children have evolved (or de-evolved... whip it, whip it good) into creatures we'd recognize as dragons. The First Dragons were interdimensional beings, more like the Chinese dragon in appearance than Western.

That is so close to what I'm writing! In the origin story of my world the first dragons were superintelligent beings I envision as the Chinese type dragon, who visited the world through a portal from another far away place. The Chinese type are huge serpents with little or no real wings who fly through the air by magic, as though they are snakes swimming in water. Then regular people of the world took their essence, (its not explained because that knowledge is lost but think DNA) and created other much less intelligent and different beasts.

This is the point I am wondering whether to make these human created dragons like bats or pegasi. Over thousands of years dragons were bred into different shapes and sizes for different purposes, so I suppose I can include both types.



The comment about the prone saddle design makes a lot of sense. Wind resistance would blow you off the back if you sat up LOTR movies style.

In looking at a lot of art of dragons and people riding dragons I noticed most of the women were scantily clad. I get why they were drawn like this but wouldn't it be ridiculously cold? There's a reason aviators in open air cockpits wear goggles and body coverings. Also motorcyclists.

I think there is only so much you can say, "it doesn't make sense but... magic."
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
FWIW and FTWC (for those who care), my dragons are created. They aren't part of the monsters who first arrived in Altearth; rather, they were created by wizards who deliberately tried to create beings out of mythology. Dragons prospered for a time and ravaged much of northern Europa. Unintended consequences, and all that.
 

Vadosity

Scribe
1. I agree with this -

Implausible dragons is one of the most forgivable implausibilities for readers. Why? Dragons are friggin awesome.

(I should know. I am a dragon, and I am awesome.)

Nuff said! Dragons are just awesome, amazing creatures and I just LOVE THEM! They make every fantasy better and so what if they can't exist in reality? This is FANTASY! It is meant to be better and that means dragons!

However if you really want to real world inspiration how about this?

This is a Glaucus atlanticus or the sea swallow, blue angel, blue glaucus, blue dragon, blue sea slug and blue ocean slug and it is a species of small, blue sea slug. It is also the closest thing I have ever seen to a real dragon!

blue-slug1.jpg
 
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