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World building and Suspension of Disbelief

What break your suspension of disbelief ?

What do you think about using "modern" words in pre modern worlds?
What do you think about anachronisms ?
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Modern words don't bother me unless there is some specific reason for it to (e.g. it's a reference to modern tech or a brand or something that doesn't exist in the fantasy world).

Anachronisms--case by case basis. Does it make sense within the context of the fantasy world?
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
Modern words bother me. I do notice them and think they should be edited out.

I recently read the sword of shannara, and there is a bit of that in there. I chalk it up to maybe Mr. Brooks was not quite his most veteran writer self when he wrote it.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Modern words bother me. I do notice them and think they should be edited out.

I recently read the sword of shannara, and there is a bit of that in there. I chalk it up to maybe Mr. Brooks was not quite his most veteran writer self when he wrote it.

There is a good story reason for it in Shannara.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I've found the argument against modern language to be a bit ill-considered, in a great many cases. The reason being one is already reading a work set in a world where English never existed. In books set in such worlds, the dialogue is ostensibly being translated to modern 21st century English, and in some cases the entire narrative is. So there is no reason whatever (apart from stylistic preference) that the dialogue shouldn't include modern equivalents of whatever concepts or sayings are being presented.
 
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pmmg

Myth Weaver
With some understanding that things must be translated into a form a current reader would understand, I do feel there is room to say, they did not really say things that way, but I had in having to translate it, it is a close approximation. But I will have to stand by my comments above. Use of non-period words will very likely take me away from the story.

"Did you notice the princess today?" says 12th century stable boy

"Yes, couldn't you feel the electricity between us?" says young squire.

Electricity would stand out to me as something that neither character would know of or anything about. I would flag it if I was editing.

There are other things along these lines I find I also come to wrestle with. Earth for one. Does a bird shot on mars fall to earth? or does it fall to mars? As earth is a word for dirt, it could sneak its way in there, but if a planet has a name, I suspect it should get used. Greek fire? Could their be Greek Fire if there is no Greece?


Ah, and your comment does remind me that Shannara was supposed to be some future world where everything had reverted back to some form of pre-gunpowder days, but that did not save it for me. I found myself often questioning the language of the main characters and the narration. But in fairness, I found myself questioning a lot more about that book as well.
 
I'm mixed, personally.

I think writing a story in older times without modern language is an unrealistic expectation in general. You run the risk of making it too convoluted or making it too hard for readers to connect with. Which kind of defeats the purpose, imo. And, realistically speaking, I think we can all acknowledge the ridiculousness of everything being in Modern English in the first place.

With that being said, however, I'm not a fan of an author using modern, culturally specific phrases- especially when it comes to modern slang, euphemisms and colloquialisms, etc. I'm especially not fond of them when they simply don't make sense within the context of the story, time, or even the culture written about. I just... I can't do it.

There really is a limit to what kind of language is appropriate or realistic in certain settings and I think that sort of language especially crosses it and ruins the believability; unless there's a good reason for it (like the person is a modern person that went back in time- which I've actually seen done really well before), then it should probably be avoided. Or, at the very least, you should re-examine if there's a better way to say it that makes more sense in context.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
With some understanding that things must be translated into a form a current reader would understand, I do feel there is room to say, they did not really say things that way, but I had in having to translate it, it is a close approximation. But I will have to stand by my comments above. Use of non-period words will very likely take me away from the story.

.

The problem with this is that we are talking about a fantasy world. With the exception of those works set on earth or some close alternate thereof, there is no “period.” It is just an arbitrary reading of earth’s history and cultures into that of a completely unrelated setting.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
There really is a limit to what kind of language is appropriate or realistic in certain settings and I think that sort of language especially crosses it and ruins the believability; unless there's a good reason for it (like the person is a modern person that went back in time- which I've actually seen done really well before), then it should probably be avoided. Or, at the very least, you should re-examine if there's a better way to say it that makes more sense in context.

I don’t agree, except in the case stated above. If it is a completely made up setting, then the author has unfettered discretion to determine what is realistic within the context of that world. Constraining the world on the basis of real Earth culture is arbitrary and doesn’t make much logical sense unless there is some basis established within the fantasy world for doing so.
 

CupofJoe

Myth Weaver
The trouble with "modern" language or that which is "culturally specific" is recognising it.
I had a issues with the word burglarized in a story by an author I usually loved. I thought burgled should have been used. I assumed any thing that ended -ize[d] must be new. Nope it pre-dates burgled by quite a few years. But one is English and the other American.
When I read, what I try to do is an internal equivalence. The characters may not really be speaking "English" [even if that is what I am reading] but they are speaking an English-like language. So there could be as many borrowed words that come from the in-world Spanish, German, Urdu, Mandarin [etc] languages.
I don't mind if someone has a curry in a restaurant and washes it all down with a lager. I think those sort of things will happen just about everywhere. It might be a Bugbear and Mandrake curry and Rushwash flavoured Lager.
After all they had Fish and Chips in LotR....
 
I recently read the sword of shannara, and there is a bit of that in there. I chalk it up to maybe Mr. Brooks was not quite his most veteran writer self when he wrote it.

Shannara is set in a post-apocalyptic Earth.




"Did you notice the princess today?" says 12th century stable boy

"Yes, couldn't you feel the electricity between us?" says young squire.

Electricity would stand out to me as something that neither character would know of or anything about. I would flag it if I was editing.

I think this is a bad example. Lightnings are one of the most common powers in fantasy, particularly in video games.
On the other hand referring to the current time period as "the 12th century" in a fantasy world is definitely a world building mistake.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
> Lightnings are one of the most common powers in fantasy, particularly in video games.

Lightning is ancient. Understanding that lightning is electricity, or indeed that there is such a thing as electricity, is modern. And using electricity as a metaphor for interpersonal chemistry is even more modern. I'd trip over that phrasing, too.
 

ScipioBarca

New Member
This has actually hit on something I have been worried about in writing my first fantasy novel. I have based my world on the world of antiquity, giving most cultures names which are plays on (for example) Roman and Greek names - however I have used Scottish names for one of the main cultures.

My thoughts are that most people won't even realise that these Scottish names are from a different period to the ancient Romans and Greeks or will simply be able to suspend their disbelief easily enough. I would be interested to hear any thoughts.
 
I've found the argument against modern language to be a bit ill-considered, in a great many cases. The reason being one is already reading a work set in a world where English never existed. In books set in such worlds, the dialogue is ostensibly being translated to modern 21st century English, and in some cases the entire narrative is. So there is no reason whatever (apart from stylistic preference) that the dialogue shouldn't include modern equivalents of whatever concepts or sayings are being presented.

That's how I view fantasy books. As a translation into English from whatever language they use in the fantasy world.

This is the reason why books that include codes dependent on isolating letters from words, or any description of a character writing or spelling out particular letters, gets to me...
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
This has actually hit on something I have been worried about in writing my first fantasy novel. I have based my world on the world of antiquity, giving most cultures names which are plays on (for example) Roman and Greek names - however I have used Scottish names for one of the main cultures.

My thoughts are that most people won't even realise that these Scottish names are from a different period to the ancient Romans and Greeks or will simply be able to suspend their disbelief easily enough. I would be interested to hear any thoughts.

It is a novel that is meant to be set in the actual real world (even if modified by the introduction of supernatural elements)? If so, I think this could be an issue. If it is a completely imaginary world, that only draws inspiration or flavor from the real world, then there is no reason that you are bound by periods or geographies of the real world.
 
I do have some particular struggles though.

Like this: My story takes place in a world with a very different history from Earth. I have a werewolf type character who, instead of transforming into a wolf, transforms into a pit bull-type dog.

Can I use the term 'pit bull' to describe her alternate form? Heck, would pit bulls, or dogs in general, even exist in this world?

This isn't exactly a language problem, I guess, but it's one of the problems of alternate worlds.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
That's how I view fantasy books. As a translation into English from whatever language they use in the fantasy world.

This is the reason why books that include codes dependent on isolating letters from words, or any description of a character writing or spelling out particular letters, gets to me...

Certainly dialogue has to be explained that way, unless the characters are speaking English. And at that point there is no reason not to translate it into entirely contemporary modern English. Of course, it isn't necessary to do so, and for a more formal work you might well choose a more archaic form of English, but there's no logical reason not to use 21st century English, including idioms and the like, if you want to (so long as you maintain in-world consistency).
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I do have some particular struggles though.

Like this: My story takes place in a world with a very different history from Earth. I have a werewolf type character who, instead of transforming into a wolf, transforms into a pit bull-type dog.

Can I use the term 'pit bull' to describe her alternate form? Heck, would pit bulls, or dogs in general, even exist in this world?

This isn't exactly a language problem, I guess, but it's one of the problems of alternate worlds.

My take: you decide if pit bulls exist i that world. If they do and they're called <your world's language equivalent of pit bull>, then I think it is fine.
 
Certainly dialogue has to be explained that way, unless the characters are speaking English. And at that point there is no reason not to translate it into entirely contemporary modern English. Of course, it isn't necessary to do so, and for a more formal work you might well choose a more archaic form of English, but there's no logical reason not to use 21st century English, including idioms and the like, if you want to (so long as you maintain in-world consistency).

I notice that the dialogue of Narnian characters in the Narnia books sounds both distinctly dated and distinctly British. But I think there's no way to avoid that. Books written nowadays in America will have characters in fantasy worlds that sound like they're from 2010's America, and it will be very noticeable 70 years from now.

Like, where do you draw the line? Do you full-on write in Middle English?
 
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