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The nature of prophecy

Kyle8414

Dreamer
Hey everyone :)

I was just curious to hear people's views on the use of prophecies/sage old wizards/knowledgeable side-kicks in their fiction. I notice that even the best writers seem to employ one method to deal out a bit of information/worldbuilding here and there. Do you try to avoid these or like me do you embrace them from time to time with great caution? I have one dream sequence in my novel. I don't hate it. I think it's written well enough and serves a good purpose. But I can't help feeling I'm taking the easy way out even though it's a very small part of the overall worldbuilding lol.
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
I don't believe there's much or anything that should be avoided in writing, whether it's the wise mentor, the funny sidekick, or prophecy. For me, the same basic approach applies to everything. Write it with care, and hopefully that leads you to writing it well. If you do that to the best of your ability, IMHO, you'll be fine more often than not.
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
Prophecy is a part of culture, not necessarily a writer's crutch. Using it as a vehicle for an info dump, like anything else, is questionable. Just because the car turns out to be full of evil clowns doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the car itself.
 

Insolent Lad

Maester
I made sure prophecy was an integral part of the overall 'magic' system used in the bulk of my fantasy work, so it seemed natural. It might not work so well to just drop it in when you need it as a passing plot device.
 
I think that the usual cautions when using info dumps and deus ex machina would apply.

Info that "saves the day" suddenly when everything seems lost or hopeless usually annoys me unless it's weaved very naturally into the story/plot progression. Usually, the annoying sort has the feature of being a complete, clear save that hasn't been foreshadowed, worked up to, earned in any way, but drops like mana from the heavens unexpectedly. Normally, I'd prefer the new, beneficial info to be a little more nuanced, unclear (suggestive rather than The Answer), and intriguing in some way—offering the heroes a glimmer of hope, or a pathway out of failure but leaving the unfolding of that pathway open to the possibility of failure still. But describing the distinction for all possible situations, abstractly, is difficult because there are sure to be exceptions and special uses.

As for prophecy generally...Well, it's a staple of the genre. Occasionally there are grumblings about this, but I think I'm only bothered by its use when it is used in a facile way, sometimes when it's used in the the ever-so-common usual way. If under a hypnotist's power, I'd freely admit, without concern, that I secretly love the trope.

The sage/knowledgeable sidekick only becomes a real problem when that character becomes an ever-present embodiment of deus ex machina, constantly delivering the right answers at the right time merely to move the plot forward and if this begins to seem like the only purpose for having the character in the story.
 
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Hey everyone :)

I was just curious to hear people's views on the use of prophecies/sage old wizards/knowledgeable side-kicks in their fiction. I notice that even the best writers seem to employ one method to deal out a bit of information/worldbuilding here and there. Do you try to avoid these or like me do you embrace them from time to time with great caution? I have one dream sequence in my novel. I don't hate it. I think it's written well enough and serves a good purpose. But I can't help feeling I'm taking the easy way out even though it's a very small part of the overall worldbuilding lol.

Hey, Kyle.

If you have actual prophecies in your story world, these are typically known by a sizable group of people in the story world, often long before their significance is felt by the people of the story world, and may even be common knowledge. Thus, there's no reason not to make them known to the reader before they become important to the story. Holding such info from the reader when there is no compelling reason other than to heighten the reader's tension may feel to the reader that you're "cheating."

If you have secret knowledge held by one person or a few people, e.g., sages, then those sages would have personalities that define how willing they are to share their knowledge or even admitting they have it. If you play willy-nilly with their personalities, making them just a tool to provide knowledge and not having them act in a consistent manner, that could ruin the story for me as a reader. If these sages are sidekicks, perfectly willing to share info at the drop of a hat, then ask yourself what would be the best time in their eyes for them to provide any given piece of info? If they withhold info when it could have made an obstacle more easily overcome, and reveal it at the last possible moment to heighten the drama, that's not realistic, and again, as a reader, I'm putting the book down.

With dream sequences, or visions of some sort, where a character learns something without directly being told by anyone, there still needs to be some basis for pertinent info being revealed through the dream or vision. Did the character already subconsciously know or suspect the info? After having a dream or vision, the character might still have doubts about acting on the info received. If the character didn't subconsciously know or suspect something, is there some external force influencing the character's dreams or giving the character a vision? What are the motives of this external force? Does the external force make itself known to the character, and remove any doubt about the provided info, or should the character still not fully trust that the info is actionable?

Know the reasons and motives of everything and everyone involved, even if you don't explicitly write them. You'll at least then have a good chance of writing a self-consistent story, and that's what I as a reader want.
 

Russ

Istar
I think all of those are perfectly fine writing tools to use.

Prophecy in particular can have value. It is a promise to the reader. It points them and you in a direction and gives you a mandate you have to fulfill.
 

staiger95

Scribe
The danger with prophesy and foreshadowing in general is that it runs the risk of ruining surprises and sapping the excitement out of things. Prophesies that are misleading are great, especially when they turn out to be entirely accurate if you had only looked at them from a different perspective. Prophesy as a catalyst for the storyline is simply a tool that can be used, and the author is in charge of determining the effectiveness of any tool in her/his arsenal.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
I personally have trouble with the whole notion of prophecy in story telling. If Farm Boy really is prophesied to slay the dragon, then the whole story is anti-climax. The kid can't lose. If he can, then it wasn't really a prophecy, it was more of a bet.

Plus, for prophecies to be serious, they need to be backed up by the gods, and I don't like gods running around in my world. I'm fine with people believing in gods, but not that there are actually gods. Put prophecies and gods together and they overwhelm the human.

That's me. I hear there are other opinions in the world. :)
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
That is a very narrow use of prophecy, as well as gods... and no, prophecy doesn't actually need gods running around, merely a sense of fate or predestination.

I personally have trouble with the whole notion of prophecy in story telling. If Farm Boy really is prophesied to slay the dragon, then the whole story is anti-climax. The kid can't lose. If he can, then it wasn't really a prophecy, it was more of a bet.

Plus, for prophecies to be serious, they need to be backed up by the gods, and I don't like gods running around in my world. I'm fine with people believing in gods, but not that there are actually gods. Put prophecies and gods together and they overwhelm the human.

That's me. I hear there are other opinions in the world. :)
 
D

Deleted member 4265

Guest
I personally have trouble with the whole notion of prophecy in story telling. If Farm Boy really is prophesied to slay the dragon, then the whole story is anti-climax. The kid can't lose. If he can, then it wasn't really a prophecy, it was more of a bet.

Plus, for prophecies to be serious, they need to be backed up by the gods, and I don't like gods running around in my world. I'm fine with people believing in gods, but not that there are actually gods. Put prophecies and gods together and they overwhelm the human.

That's me. I hear there are other opinions in the world. :)

As others have already said, I think your view of prophecies is quite narrow, but even if prophecies had to be absolutely true, I think they can work and there can still be suspense. In my opinion prophecies are meant to facilitate internal conflict. The good prophecy stories I've read have been less about whether or not the poor farm boy is going to save the world and more about the protagonist grappling with what it means to know your own future. I like prophecy stories where the MC grapples with this. Is knowing you're destined for greatness a relief because it gives your life meaning or does the fact that the course of your life is pre-ordained and you have no choice make it meaningless? And of course there's always questions like why me? Not to mention knowing the future can be a heavy burden, especially if the prophecy involves self-sacrifice. Or if the hero has no choice, maybe the villain also has no choice but to play their role.

Basically, I think prophecies can be a good driving force behind an internal conflict. Its focusing on them as an external conflict that makes for weak stories.
 

Kyle8414

Dreamer
Hey everyone,

Thanks so much for all the replies. Gives me a lot to think about. The portion of my story I was referring to has a character using a sort of concoction that causes lucid dreaming. In the world at large around him there's a sort of fading-older-magic vs. Newer scientific methods theme, this concoction being part of the former. I was hoping to extend that (and limit its use as Deus ex Machina) by having the visions untrustworthy, and the dream-state very dangerous to the dreamer. Much like our own dreams, the visions would be inspired and confounded by the dreamer's emotions i.e. may see what will happen or may see what they fear will happen. Is this all just meh? Lol
 
I really dislike prophecies generally. It's like a book with built-in spoilers. Just not cool.

And all the twists on prophecies and ways prophecies can be wrong have been done a million times and they just don't amuse me.
 

WooHooMan

Auror
Whenever a prophecy appeared in any of my stories, it was usually fabricated as a plan to get something done. When you wanted a hero to take-up the sword in a thousand years, you find an "oracle" and have them go around saying that they'll be a chosen one in a thousand years. There's never any future-seeing or predetermination and any prophecy could fail if the characters let it.

That's what I suggest you do with your story: have the "prophecy" be more like a suggestion on how the future can go rather than a set plan for the world. And then have its existence motivate the characters to make it happen. Kind of like a subversion of how prophecies tend to be portrayed.
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
Everything's been done a million times, you might as well quit now, LOL.

Jesus was prophesized and his story isn't any less compelling for it.

Using prophecy to hint at an ending can be valuable, if you're bending reader expectations, very valuable. Like any clue to a mystery, a prophecy can be genuine or a red herring, and like any wriitng tool they can be screwed up. I don't think prophecy ever screwed up an otherwise great book, I call it a symptom not the disease.

I really dislike prophecies generally. It's like a book with built-in spoilers. Just not cool.

And all the twists on prophecies and ways prophecies can be wrong have been done a million times and they just don't amuse me.
 
In most movies and books of the action/adventure type, once the reader or viewer knows who the hero is, he already knows the hero is going to survive and succeed. Even before starting Dr. Strange, the viewer knows Dr. Strange is going to become a powerful sorcerer and defeat the story's villain. It's like there's already a prophecy, albeit unspoken.
 
In my WIP, there's a prophecy that the MC doesn't want to happen and she tries to find a way to subvert it. A goddess made the prophecy centuries ago. The time for fulfillment has come. Some powerful people and another god want the prophecy to be fulfilled now. So the MC has her work cut out for her.

In some books that deal with prophecies, the details are often vague enough, you don't really know who the Chosen One is. Someone might think they are, yet not be, in which case they might fail (or they might succeed despite not being the Chosen One). In the case of a vague prophecy, there's no guarantee of a particular outcome simply because someone has tried to fulfill the prophecy.

Other books might spell out the specifics of a prophecy, but even then, there is bound to be someone who doesn't want it to come true. Or someone might fabricate a prophecy and spread it in the name of some god/entity who didn't make it. You could say that it's not a real prophecy if it doesn't come true, and I might even agree with you, but you don't know it's not a real prophecy until it fails.

Even a fake prophecy might become a self-fulfilling one if everyone accepts it as real. To quote my own signature block: "The truth doesn't matter. What people believe matters."
 
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