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Sticking it out

Incanus

Auror
I’m trying to avoid being the guy who has four or five novels all in various stages of incompletion, for years on end.

However, my first novel is pretty flawed, and it is going to take about another one-and-a-half to two years to complete. I can be pretty persistent about this sort of thing, but this is going to be difficult to see through.

I’m trying to tell myself that this is my ‘learning’ novel, and that it’s OK that it isn’t as good as I’d like it to be. The next one will be better, I insist.

I’ve been doing a fairly good job of ignoring the inside voice that tells me that this novel isn’t going to be all that great, and listening to the other voice that tells me I should stick it out, no matter what.

The question is: can I keep up this attitude for two whole years?

Does this little dilemma sound familiar to some of you? What do you do to stay on course? Or, do you quit working on things when it gets tough, and start something else? If so, are you worried that you’ll never complete anything?

I welcome any insights or thoughts about this.
 

Ireth

Myth Weaver
I know exactly what you mean, Incanus. I have at least a half-dozen novels in various stages of done-ness. One novel is very near completion; a couple have finished first drafts and pieces of a second, and the rest have fifty pages or less. As for the one that's nearly done, it's been in development since 2011, and in on-and-off re-development since 2014. As of late 2015, though, it's been my primary writing focus, albeit with breaks here and there for NaNo (and even then, a couple times I just used Camp NaNo as a means of getting a lot of revising done in a short time). I've hammered out three drafts so far, which my lovely beta reader has been invaluable in helping me through, and am working on a fourth. It has been tricky to stay completely focused -- my mind keeps coming up with new ideas, and I've written beginnings for a couple of them, to be expanded on later when I have more time to commit to them. But it's paying off, and Winter's Queen is getting more and more polished every day.
 
I have the opposite problem: working on the same book for four + years. I have too many ideas that I keep trying to stuff into one book, yet I also am reluctant to let it go. :rolleyes:
 
Incanus, we're all at different stages of craft development. My situation is very similar to yours. I decided to focus on finishing the book that I intend to see published. The story was crap to begin with, and was still crap after several revisions. But it is finally starting to shine, because there is a gem underneath all the crud. I've actually started shaping the gem, not only polishing it, and that's a good feeling.

I've been studying the craft all along, and applying what I learn to my story. I could have gone to school instead, and saved a lot of time, perhaps, if I'd felt I had time and money to go to school. But I chose the route I've taken, and I feel that it's going to work out.

I intend to finish my current WIP, focusing primarily on it, writing a few shorter pieces along the way perhaps but not working on another novel until this one is ready for beta readers again. And the learning process will never stop....
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
I encourage you to finish. All the way to done, which means either 1) you have a completed manuscript and have sent queries to agents, or 2) you have a completed manuscript, have gone through at least one editor (or a couple good beta readers), have bought or built a cover, and have published it. It's not done until all that is done.

From my own experience, there are important things to be learned even at the very end of the process. Plus, having Novel A *done* makes working on Novel B a far happier experience. Yes it is a terrible slog getting through the last stages, but you will be glad you did.
 

Incanus

Auror
One thing that keeps me going on this: When I ask myself - where would you rather be, having one completed novel, or having three one-third completed novels? - the answer is always: one complete novel. It goes without saying that the way to accomplish that is to work on that one novel until it's done. (And yes, I've already taken several breaks to work on a short or three, and will again.)

What's unclear to me is how much I can fix with editing. I'm already at the point where I wouldn't have developed the idea the same way if I started it today. That's not something I can undo, so I'm stuck with it for another two years or so. And that's what is going to be the hard part: spending two more years working on what I deem a flawed project. I see no other way forward though.
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
Sounds familiar. It's fine to have lots of irons in the fire, but IMHO you should be finishing things. When you finish, you're practicing finishing. If you don't ever finish, that's what you're practicing instead, to give up.

When you write, there will always be things that will be difficult, doesn't matter if it's your first novel or your fiftieth. But you learn to deal with those challenges. That's a part of getting better as a writer.

As for the time being spent, I'll refer you to my signature below. Anything worth doing will take time, but the more you practice something the more efficient you'll get at it.
 
C

Chessie

Guest
Finish what you start. It's imperative in helping a writer improve in their craft. And all writers work at different paces. Find a pace that works to support consistency--meaning, be realistic about where you are in your writer journey, then set up a schedule to support yet challenge you. Consistency is the biggest thing. Even if you only do 30 mins a day or 3k a day, etc, writing on a schedule will help you finish that much more.

And keep writing. It'll pay off someday.
 

Incanus

Auror
Thanks folks.

Skip--I think I define 'finishing a novel' a bit different than you. I'm speaking strictly about completing the manuscript itself. I see marketing/submitting as a wholly separate activity. It's unlikely this novel would interest any publisher, but I'll let others decide that because I haven't a clue. Which is why I want to get to that second novel.

Chessie--3K a day? Not in my wildest dreams. My all-time high is around 1600 in one day (probably about 6-7 hours spent), but most days are around 400-500. Takes about 2-3 hours to do that every time. I feel pretty confident I'd win the slowest writer award if there was such a thing. I make up for this slow speed a little by writing 7 days a week, with very few exceptions.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
What's unclear to me is how much I can fix with editing. I'm already at the point where I wouldn't have developed the idea the same way if I started it today. That's not something I can undo, so I'm stuck with it for another two years or so. And that's what is going to be the hard part: spending two more years working on what I deem a flawed project. I see no other way forward though.

I hear you on this. I feel similarly towards Goblins at the Gates. I know there are structural flaws in it. It's my first full novel; there's no way I hit it out of the park in my first at-bat. But I've come to terms with it. I compare it to a musical performance. I could get up on stage and sing a song, and yes I could have done it better. But I did it. Or, to go another direction, I wrote a Master's thesis and yes it is flawed, but I did it.

That's what counts. I stood in at the plate and had my cuts. I did my fifteen-minute set. I wrote the damned thesis. These all go into the column marked Things I Did, rather than into the Things I Intend column.

It's not a flawed project, Incanus. It's the project you chose. You will do it, then you will choose another and, because you did this one, you'll know you will do that one. Because there's no way it can be as awful as this one! :)
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
What's unclear to me is how much I can fix with editing. I'm already at the point where I wouldn't have developed the idea the same way if I started it today. That's not something I can undo, so I'm stuck with it for another two years or so. And that's what is going to be the hard part: spending two more years working on what I deem a flawed project. I see no other way forward though.

I'm not sure I'm understanding you clearly here. IMHO you can fix anything with editing. I know this is easier said than done, but if there are flaws, just fix them. If that means going back and redesigning/redeveloping the story from the ground up, then IMHO do it. Stories change during writing. Nothing ever turns out exactly like you envision. A lot of times far from it.

For example, did you know the movie Minority Report staring Tom Cruise was originally being developed as a sequel to Total Recall that starred Arnold Schwarzenegger?

Part of learning to write for me was to learn to never fall too in love with the initial shape my ideas took. For me, I have to let change happen if it's right for the story no matter where I am in developing the story. One time, after the first draft, I threw out half a novel because it stunk. And what I came up with in its place was way better.

I'm curious, how did you come up with two years as a time frame for one novel? If you can write 500 words a day, in two years that's 365K in words. That's either one very very very large novel, two large ones, or four average size ones.

IMHO, if you commit yourself to a project, you'd be surprised how many words you can produce just by constantly writing.
 
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I understand this. I just began the second draft of my third novel and as of now I'm just bewildered at how huge the task of revising is. I'm still perfecting the first page (I have 262 words on the second draft so far) and it's an 110k word novel. While writing it I regularly hit 2k or 3k words in a day, a couple times 4k and once 5k. This opening scene has sucked up several days and I'm not even done with it.

Going over the manuscript, I realized I would have to rewrite like 10 chapters in a row in places. I have no idea how much of the original I will be able to keep. Probably not much.

I'm sitting here at my desk with my document open, wanting to start on another book instead. "Do I really want to do this?" I keep wondering. "It will take FOREVER!"
 

Incanus

Auror
Mr. Pilot, you raise a lot of great points, as usual. I’ll try to address them, but this might not be short.

First, I’m well aware some stories go through radical changes, only vaguely resembling the initial conception. Just look at the very first ideas for Star Wars. I’ve read the first drafts of Lord of the Rings too, and all I can say is: wow.

The fundamental flaw I sort of cryptically referred to is that I didn’t really develop a proper character arc for this story from the get go. I sort of thought I had one, but I was mistaken. I’m now grafting one on to the external plot that I have, which is less than ideal. I’m using something that will fit, but there’s going to be some Frankenstein scars left all over it. On the other hand, my first draft was like 95% external plot anyway. So there’s sort of an experiment going on here: can I flesh out this story and add a decent character arc through revision/editing? The jury is still out. Either way, I won’t be making that error in the future, but I’m stuck with it now.

I’m certainly amenable to making pretty significant changes—I’m carrying one out right now that requires extensive rewriting.

As far as time and numbers go, it looks to be about three and a half years to write this novel at my rate. I’ve been at it for a year and a half, I’m guessing about two more. But the way you’re talking about numbers doesn’t seem to take revision into account. Rewriting means that previously written words won’t count toward the end total. For instance, I’ve been revising and re-revising Part 1 of my story, which is around 25K words. When I’ve gone over this portion four times (not that it has been the same size all along really), I’ll have written or edited about 100K words to arrive at my 25K. At that rate, it’ll take about 400K words to get to a 100K novel. And then, four drafts aren’t going to be enough. It’ll take more than that, though editing that is mostly polishing should go far quicker.

One thing’s for sure: I’ve been learning and growing.
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
Gotcha now. Yeah, character arcs can be tough if you don't have them from the get go, but I find once you have it, everything else tends to change itself to shape around it and support that. Hopefully that's how it works out for you.
 
@Incanus, I started my WIP in 2012. It doesn't feel like it has been that long, but file dates reveal the truth. When I started, I didn't understand character arcs for novels. I didn't understand story structure for novels. I didn't understand a lot of things about the craft of writing novels. But I had drive. So I came up with a crap story outline of 20K words and grew that to an 80K story and then to 120K. I sent the 120K story to beta readers. They told me how bad it was. They weren't cruel, just honest.

Their feedback gave me focus for what to study. As a result of my studying, I redeveloped the story and started over, salvaging what I could, and discarding the rest. I thought that the new version of the story was too big for one book. So I wrote 120K, called it book 1, and sent it to beta readers. The feedback was better, but the book didn't have good structure. So I studied structure, which included reading what some people on this site had to say about it. Heliotrope wrote a good post about story structure. Off-site, K.M. Weiland's books on story structure and character arcs were also a big help.

So now I've redeveloped the story again, with the aim at cutting it back down to a 120K standalone novel, because I think a debut novel will do better as a standalone novel. I'll write sequels, but the first book will have closure. I have a new outline, with story beats indicated where they should happen, that is, at what percent of the way through the story should this event happen or this piece of info become known. A couple months ago, I started over with a blank Scrivener file, and am now at the 50K mark. I'm not hitting the percentages precisely, but I'm close, and of course I'll be editing later.

Some people will say it shouldn't take 5 years to write one novel. I could agree, for those people who have published a novel already, or gone through formal training. Sometimes I wish I had gone after different degrees than the ones I have and dove into a writing career from an early age. But life went the way it did. So I've had to learn the hard way. If it's taken me 5 years, well, anyone taking formal training in the subject would have taken a few years for that too.

Realistically, my WIP is not the same book I started writing in 2012. You could say that I've written two novels that I've thrown away and am now working on my third. Some people might have said that I should have published the first version of the novel and moved on. I thought about doing just that. But I read somewhere that you only get one chance at making a first impression. I want my debut novel to be better than what those first two efforts were. I hope to still improve my craft after my debut novel is published; if I wait to publish my first novel until I have something "perfect," I'll never see publication. So I have to finish, and finish in accordance with @skip's definition. I'm glad I did the redevelopments that came before, but this has to be the last one. I understand if you feel something of the same way.
 

Incanus

Auror
Hey Michael, thanks for sharing your story. That's what I call 'sticking it out'. I think it's great that you're seeing such a project through to the end. I agree with your point about having only one chance to make a first impression. I wouldn't be comfortable sending out my first novel if I didn't think it was ready. When (if) I submit, I want it to be the best possible thing I can do. If necessary I'm willing to wait years to get to that point.

I just have to keep reminding myself that I'm not only doing the work of writing a novel, but I'm also doing the work of learning how to write a novel at the same time. It's no wonder this is going to take a long time.

So if you can make it through five years, I can surely make it for three and a half. Right? Right!
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
It's been ten years for me, though the first few years consisted of almost random bits of narrative, dialog, whatever. Mostly it consisted of things that dropped by the wayside in favor of better stuff. I count serious writing--where I made a real effort to write every day--at about four years to get to a novel that I am now willing to let an agent see, should any respond to my query letters. In those early years, I too was writing only a few hundred words a day. One reason why I persisted with this novel, even though I began to see fundamental flaws in its structure, is that I refused to have all those years result in anything other than a completed story.

Along the way, I did write three short stories, two novelettes, and a 50k Nanowrimo that still sulks at me off-stage. All of it has been necessary work.
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
I've been at this writing thing since 2001. I just now feel I might have enough understanding to write an actually good book. There's merit to sticking it out and pulling through the storm, and there's merit to jumping ship so you don't sink to the bottom, too.

Each person has to come to that decision after hopefully assessing their goals.

Fundamentally, in myself, I hate jumping ship. I always want to ride it through the storm, to a safe landing. But unfortunately, the stories I was telling weren't doing it for my crit partners. And they're wise folks, so I had to take my lumps. I had thirty readers for one of my books, and the consensus was the same--it's not very good.

Since then, I've learned a lot about this "not good" thing, and I realized I had a gaping hole in my storytelling. I wrote an article about why my books sucked and how I began to change that. This last year has been a lot of learning and a not much actual writing. But I feel stronger for having taken a new path than I was taking earlier. I was really afraid to begin writing in a new way, and the learning was slow and will continue to be. I'm tackling things I never wanted to think about.

I think assessing your goals is a good thing, because every year we write, we change. We get new ideas, learn new skills, and have more tools in our arsenals. Sometimes those tools can work more effectively on a new work, where they can be implemented from the beginning. And there is nothing wrong with using the tools on an already explored concept that's just in need of some fixing.
 

Ronald T.

Troubadour
As you can see, Incanus, most of us have had similar experiences, and can sympathize with your frustration. I think what most people here are saying is fairly uniform, and spot on. Writing is an endless process of learning, and if you are to succeed, you can never give up on yourself.

I spent more than forty years as a devout reader of authors I grew to love, and during most of that time I was studying the art and craft of writing. That was before I ever wrote my first words with the idea of creating a complete novel of my own. Then I began to write the first draft of the first book in my series in the late fall of 2004. After at least 25 to 30 revisions and endless minor edits -- and that's being conservative -- I finally e-published my first volume on Amazon in September of 2016.

How well it does is yet to be discovered. But I did the best I could, and I never let the amount of hard work, or the time it would take, stop me from doing the next full edit. I know there are writers who can do a better job than I can. That will always be the case, no matter how long I write or how many books I write.

The most important thing is this: keep writing, keep learning, and keep on revising and editing until you've taken your story as far as your current skills can get you. And remember, every writer can go back to reread what they wrote and find things they would change. That's true of every writer who pushes themselves to improve their skill level. That goes for the best writers out there.

There is no such thing as perfection. There is only doing the best you can at the moment.

You already have a great flare for using words. That is the ultimate tool necessary within the toolbox of any writer's desire to be successful. It is at the heart of any writer's ability to create a well told story. I've seen your work, and I know you will succeed.
 
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