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Revision Woes

La Volpe

Sage
I am currently in the middle of the revision of a fantasy novel I wrote something like a year ago. As I mentioned elsewhere, this my the first time doing an official revision. I usually write a novel, and then promptly just throw it into my virtual backyard and never look at it again -- for two main reasons; 1) It seemed like a lot of work and I hate doing things over, and 2) by the time the novel was simmered enough for revision, it felt like I had learned so many new things that the novel couldn't be salvaged (i.e. the foundation was terribly built and a new one needed to be made to end up with a novel that's even half-okay).

Now, on to my point:
I'm at the brink of (yet again) abandoning the revision, and simply rewriting the entire (or at least most of the) thing. The worst part is that this is already the second iteration of this particular novel.

Having identified a bunch of points that were dragging the story down or stuff that didn't make sense, I sketched up some new solutions, etc. But now, most of my story doesn't fit anymore.

So, finally, my question:
Is this just me being an idiot? Or is this standard operating procedure for revision sometimes? Do you guys ever do huge rewrites where 40 - 60% of your novel will be hugely altered or simply thrown out (and the rest changed quite a bit)?

Also, if you have any general revision tips, feel free to share.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
There has been good advice offered on other threads; you might look around.

I found Janice Hardy's thirty essays on revision to be extremely useful (at Fiction University). All free.

My own advice is this: go in with a plan. Mine comes at multiple layers.
Does the story have a theme? If not, write another story. This one will never be coherent. Doesn't have to be a profound theme.
Identify character arcs, at least for protagonist and antagonist. Fix these.
Examine the plot. Holes and pacing, mainly, but also with an eye to killing or expanding sub-plots.
Make sure I have the right setting throughout.

That's the high-level stuff. Then comes scene/sequel work. This is really where I get into pacing. Not the general, Act 1, 2, 3 stuff, but the hand-off between Scene 12 and Scene 13 sort of stuff. I'd say this is easily 70% of the work. This is also where I pay attention to things like using motifs, having setting reiterate plot, consistency in character voice and behavior.

Then comes copyedit and proofing.

All that sounds way more organized than it really is. It's not so much that I proceed in some orderly manner (excuse me while I pick myself up off the floor from laughing at that image), as the stuff mentioned above serves as a kind of check list. Have I at least thought about these things? Have I read the novel front to back with these considerations clearly before me? That's highly iterative. I read for a bit, then can't stand it any more and do at least some editing. Then I realize I'm getting lost in the thicket again, pull back, look at my guidelines, and go at it again.
 
I feel ya.

I'm just beginning on a revision in which some 80% of the book will have to be rewritten. So yeah, it totally happens. I can't tell you yet how it goes, lol. But we're in the same boat...
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
If you want to be published, then you need to be able to revise. If you just write for yourself, then do what ever makes you happy.

IMHO, the bulk of the work in a story is done in revision. I threw away and rewrote half a book once. And when I edit and revise scenes, I can make as many as 30 passes over each scene, making changes that range from complete rewrite to fixing grammar and polishing my language.

In revision, you have to be able to identify the problem, come up with a good solution for it, and be able to execute that solution effectively.

If you only ever identify the problem, you don't get practice doing the other two things, which to me are pretty important.

Any story can be saved by editing. It just takes time and effort.
 

La Volpe

Sage
Thanks for the answers, everyone.

There has been good advice offered on other threads; you might look around.

I found Janice Hardy's thirty essays on revision to be extremely useful (at Fiction University). All free.

My own advice is this: go in with a plan. Mine comes at multiple layers.
Does the story have a theme? If not, write another story. This one will never be coherent. Doesn't have to be a profound theme.
Identify character arcs, at least for protagonist and antagonist. Fix these.
Examine the plot. Holes and pacing, mainly, but also with an eye to killing or expanding sub-plots.
Make sure I have the right setting throughout.

That's the high-level stuff. Then comes scene/sequel work. This is really where I get into pacing. Not the general, Act 1, 2, 3 stuff, but the hand-off between Scene 12 and Scene 13 sort of stuff. I'd say this is easily 70% of the work. This is also where I pay attention to things like using motifs, having setting reiterate plot, consistency in character voice and behavior.

Then comes copyedit and proofing.

I'm following a rough guideline similar to that. First looking at the bigger issues, and working my way down. But in the character arcs (and plot), I got to a point where a lot of the stuff didn't make sense anymore, and it led me to taking out a character and changing a lot of the plot -- thus the huge amount of rewriting.

And the problem here is that I don't know if it's a case of writer's everything-I-wrote-is-stupid-itis, or a legitimate analysis of the story. I guess beta readers would be the answer to that, but I don't feel my story is anywhere near ready for people to read.

I feel ya.

I'm just beginning on a revision in which some 80% of the book will have to be rewritten. So yeah, it totally happens. I can't tell you yet how it goes, lol. But we're in the same boat...

Good to know it's not just me then. Might I ask what brought on the need for the rewriting? Are you changing the plot? Or a character?

Good luck on your end as well.

If you want to be published, then you need to be able to revise. If you just write for yourself, then do what ever makes you happy.

IMHO, the bulk of the work in a story is done in revision. I threw away and rewrote half a book once. And when I edit and revise scenes, I can make as many as 30 passes over each scene, making changes that range from complete rewrite to fixing grammar and polishing my language.

In revision, you have to be able to identify the problem, come up with a good solution for it, and be able to execute that solution effectively.

If you only ever identify the problem, you don't get practice doing the other two things, which to me are pretty important.

Any story can be saved by editing. It just takes time and effort.

I definitely want to be published, and I've always known that I need to be able to revise to get there, but I just never got myself to do it (always thinking: Okay, this next novel will be good enough to revise etc. etc.).

You seem to confirm that rewriting large chunks is a part of the process, so I'm probably on the right track. The thing is, I might have already "revised" in that this is the second version of the same story. Most of it has changed completely though, so I don't know if it can be called the same story.

And that leads me to your final line: How loosely are you using the word story? I.e. how much of it needs to be intact for the story to have been saved, rather than simply a different story having been written? This is kind of the crux of my question with this thread; should I be trying to keep my story mostly intact? Is changing most of my story a way of abandoning the old one (which is something I'm trying to unlearn)?
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
I look at it this way. I start off with a chunk of clay. I shape it, reshape it, and reshape some more. No matter what form it takes, it's still the same chunk of clay. It's the same story trying to find its true form. That's just the way I think about it. Ask me again in an hour and I may answer different.
 

Russ

Istar
This is kind of the crux of my question with this thread; should I be trying to keep my story mostly intact?

There is a very difficult question to answer without having read the story.

You might ask yourself something like "Is this story achieving what I want it to?" And then if you think it is, keep it mostly intact. If not, than ask yourself why is it not succeeding like I want it to? The answer to that will then tell you how large the issues are that are standing between you and your desired results.

There are many different and successful approaches to revision. However park the fact in the back of your mind, that if you want to be traditionally published (which is what I took from your comment above) that sooner or later you will have to write to a schedule and that might limit the scope of revisions you can do.

Questions like "when is the story changed so much it is a new story" is of academic interest only. Questions like "what do I need to do to this story to make it suceed" are far more practically helpful.
 
And that leads me to your final line: How loosely are you using the word story? I.e. how much of it needs to be intact for the story to have been saved, rather than simply a different story having been written? This is kind of the crux of my question with this thread; should I be trying to keep my story mostly intact? Is changing most of my story a way of abandoning the old one (which is something I'm trying to unlearn)?

There are at least two ways of thinking about "story."

"Story" is a rather amorphous thing, itself. So let's say my story is about an elf with a major physical deformity who is abused by his family and his society and who leaves his home, joins human society where elves are very uncommon, and ends up finding his place–a prominent face in the leadership, valued, saving that human kingdom from destruction. That's the story. And it's amorphous. I could write it a thousand ways, adding and removing major characters, devising first one antagonistic would-be destroyer of the human kingdom, then after the first draft decide to scrap that force and create an altogether different kind of force. I could add a romantic subplot for this elf. Then remove that subplot and any associated characters (like the love interest.) I could completely rewrite the novel 5 times, scrapping about 80% or more each time. But still, the "story" would remain the same. [I think this is like Penpilot's example of shaping clay.] The goal here is to find the shape that best conveys this story, according to whatever measurements you–and possibly, your target audience–desire. What works best?

"Story" is the exact set of words you end up with. Technically, perhaps, this is the story. At least, this is the only story your readers are ever going to know by reading the published work. Also, without all the words, "story" is merely an idea, a concept, maybe even a "story archetype." So one version has a romantic subplot, but it's scrapped in a later version: These are two different "stories," even if nothing else is changed. They may be very similar stories, but they are not identical. One version has an outcast elf, another an outcast dwarf instead: two different stories, again. If 80% is scrapped, then the thing is rewritten, these are two different stories that vary greatly.

The second concept of "story" above is what worries you the most–in your mind. But, paradoxically perhaps, your worry that Story (first concept) may be lost because of the second–massive rewrites each lead to a different "story"–betrays the fact that it's really the first concept that has your heart.

I suspect–don't know–that your problem lies in not having a solid, certain idea of Story (first concept above), and this limits your ability to revise and revise without worry of losing It. You add elements, characters, etc., then remove elements and characters, and somehow in that process your initial story idea morphs, gets lost, whatever, and you discover that you've ended up with a different Story.

So...I'd work on contemplating and coming up with a solid premise statement before you jump into writing anything new. Make sure the premise is exactly what you want, points toward and/or fits the Story you want to end up with. What is MOST important for this story–thematically, emotionally, intellectually, the type of character your MCs will be, the character arcs. The point is that many other elements can change, things can be added or removed, because relatively, they are not nearly as important. Their only importance is to serve as vehicles for This Story you want to write, and if they aren't doing their job, they can be axed without reservation. Indeed, they often MUST be axed because they threaten to abolish your original Story, the thing you are working toward.
 
Addendum:

Part of the problem may also be related to the nature of being a writer of fiction.

I'm going out on a limb and will be presumptuous in describing writers universally here...but I think that most writers probably have about 1000 ideas for stories bubbling around in their heads at any given moment. Plus or minus. And sometimes, while writing one story, 5-10 other story ideas will intrude on that story. So you (universal, general "you") begin writing one story that you want to tell but end up telling some other story midway through, or a handful of different stories. This causes all kinds of problems, especially if you hit the revision stage only to discover that one of 3 or 4 different stories (in this single project) isn't working well so you make major changes only to discover that now one of the other stories is messed up, so you revise for it and...well, rinse/repeat.

So having clarity about exactly what you intend to write from the outset (or discovering this ONE STORY through discovery writing the first draft, incidentally) helps to clear up the clutter.
 
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La Volpe

Sage
Thanks Penpilot, Russ, and Fifth for your answers. You all touch on the same points, so I think I can make a general response to all three of you.

So first, Fifth's nice layout of the two potential meanings of "story" was quite helpful in helping me figure out where my focus is and what it is that's bothering me. As you say, the first definition is the thing that I'm trying to keep (I'll get to why that is in a moment).

So I have two main characters who intersect and kind of help out with the other's goal. I'll keep this short and snappy. Let's use A and B for the two people. A wants to kill a certain unkillable monster. B wants to find her brother and take him the hell out of the country.

The basic setup of my plot was that B needs A's help to get her brother, so she agrees to help him with his problem. Then when A's plan goes awry, B abandons A, gets her brother on her own (now that she's stronger) and gets out. Some stuff happens and B returns to the country to help A kill the monster.

So. Everything that happens after A's plan goes awry (at least B's portion of it) turned out to be incredibly boring. Ergo, I made plans to cut huge swaths of it, maybe cutting it down to the bare minimum or something. But then I realised that I could improve both the interestingness and get better motivation for helping A if I make the monster kill B's brother early on.

This is good, but now I'm questioning the "Story". Since I essentially changed most of B's character arc, motivation, and goal, is the (first definition) story still intact? I could probably revise the problematic bit without killing the brother, but I think the story will be better if I do. A's goal is still pretty much the same. I suspect there might be some big changes in how he does it, but like you mentioned, it doesn't affect the "Story".

As promised, an explanation as to why I'm worried that I'll change the "Story":
A large part of it is because I've made a bad habit of writing stories and then not revising them. Whenever I'd revisit a story, instead of trying to revise it, I'd just chuck the whole thing out and start from scratch. So I'm not sure if I'm doing proper revision or if I'm just trying to convince myself that I am, all the while continuing my bad habit.
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
Part of the skill of being a writer is figuring out when to keep a story as is, when to revise it, or when to just start from scratch again. To me this all falls under the umbrella of revision. There's no guarantee your choices will be the right ones. There's no guarantee of that for any of us.

You just make the best choices you can, and try to write the best story you can. There comes a point where you can't take the story any further, and that's when you move on, and maybe come back later or not at all.

Sometimes when I have an idea for a story, the first go around will be a complete failure and miss the mark. Depending on how far off the mark it is, I'll either take what I have and try to use that as a base for the next draft, or I'll take a completely new attack angle. It's about finding what works.

The demands of each story are different every time.
 
A large part of it is because I've made a bad habit of writing stories and then not revising them. Whenever I'd revisit a story, instead of trying to revise it, I'd just chuck the whole thing out and start from scratch. So I'm not sure if I'm doing proper revision or if I'm just trying to convince myself that I am, all the while continuing my bad habit.

I wonder if, rather than ask the more general question of whether major rewrites are ok/common, you might ask more specific questions about revision.

Because, yes, major rewrites are an actual thing; other people do it, heh.

But never completing a novel, always either chucking it to the side or doing complete rewrite after rewrite after rewrite of a story and never seeming to get anywhere may be signs of deeper issues relating to how you go about revising.

Let's take for instance B's brother. Why does he even exist? The fact that he could be killed early or could be saved by her and not die at all might be a sign that he's merely a convenient plot device to get A and B to work together and/or to motivate B. The monster seems a more significant fact for the story; the brother, not so much at all. (The description you gave for your story was rather vague, heh, so I'm only grasping at the reason for the brother's existence.) Plot devices are not a bad thing, are actually necessary, but inserting one as a convenience can throw the whole conceptualization phase off, and when you begin to revise you could find yourself keeping an unnecessary plot device from an earlier draft and working around it in ways that a) prevent you from seeing alternate structures for your story that could work much better, or even b) cause you to make alterations that end up throwing a lot of other things out of whack.
 
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I'm in the middle of a major revision on my WIP. I started over with a blank file, and am reusing what I can from the original. I'm still new at the novel writing thing, as opposed to short story writing, so I'm considering all the revising I'm doing on the novel as a learning process. The hope is that after I get it (close to) right once, I'll be better equipped to get it (closer to) right in less time for the second and subsequent novels. But yeah, right now, it is a major PITA to do the revising I'm doing.

@skip mentioned theme. It took me a while to understand the importance of theme. Now I can see that lack of theme cohesion was a huge factor for all of my previous rewrites. With theme planted firmly in my mind now, the story I'm writing feels like Story.

I was also lacking when it came to structure and, because of that, overall pacing. I didn't pay enough attention to scene/sequel pacing. Character arcs were weak too. Put all of this together, and I had a royal mess.

But I'm determined to do this. While I continued revising and trying to create a publishable novel, I was also studying the craft. I compared my manuscript attempts to the ideals that the experts exposed me to. I saw where I was failing. So my next revision took that failure into account. Then I learned more, and realized another revision was called for. Now my wife is telling me to stop studying the craft, because she's afraid I'll read something else that will make me want to do yet another big revision. :) But I'm feeling confident that this time will be it. My plan is to not do another major revision after this one, and go with what I have. I'll submit to agents and see what comes of it. I'll learn more, and apply the new knowledge when I revise the second novel.

I see it all as a learning and growing process. That's the great thing about this site: everyone here is at a different point in their development as a writer, so we're exposed to many perspectives, which can help us flesh out our own process. In the end, we will each bring a uniqueness to the world of (fantasy) literature, and that's exciting too.
 

Incanus

Auror
MKE makes a great point above ^^

I feel your pain La Volpe. I'm probably retaining around 10% of the material from the first draft. The story is basically the same, but the execution was just lousy the first time I wrote it out.

I'm working on my first novel, and I got pretty overwhelmed early on in the revision process. I've been re-working the first quarter or fifth of the novel over and over, hoping to get it half-decent before moving on. My expectations were quite a bit off at first--I thought I'd accomplish far more than I actually did with each edit pass, and that was pretty depressing. A ton of work and the thing only gets a tiny bit better. Grrrr.

But now I realize I'm really doing two things at the same time. Not only am I revising my novel, I'm in the process of learning how to write and revise a novel as well. Knowing that makes me relax a little about not getting very far on a given day. And I know next time I'll have more knowledge and experience, and it will go a little smoother.

Try to hang in there!
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
Michael, I got the same from my wife. Understandable, since I was nearly ten years writing the thing. When I declared I was going through it again (using beta feedback) and actually set a deadline, she was simultaneously supportive and skeptical. Supportical. There is great husbandly satisfaction in having met the deadline and being actually done (with usual disclaimers about agents and editors, should I get that far).

Another thing about theme. I had long bristled and complained about writing a log line or similar distressingly brief descriptor of my novel. What's your book about? Well, you see, it's like this ... and there go the eyes.

Once I latched on to the theme, once I knew that clearly, the log line was easy. My next novel is about a half-elf, half-human girl who finds out she is neither. That's it. Lots of other stuff in there, and I can elaborate on that, but that's the bedrock. Maybe I just got lucky with this one, but I don't think so. I've another novel in the wings and it's a good story and I like the characters, but I don't have that theme clearly in mind yet, so it sits and bubbles on one of my innumerable back burners. The first story concept that emerges with a clear theme gets to jump to the head of the queue.
 

ThinkerX

Myth Weaver
Revisions are part of the writing process. They are also what is claiming the bulk of my time this year.

The rough draft of 'Labyrinth: Journal' was about 45K. Man, did I get a rush finishing it! Then, rewrite time hit. I tossed something like half the story right off. I had to start in a different place - took me about half a dozen tries to get that right. I cut a significant character. Then two full rewrites plus an edit pass to make it palatable to other eyes. It grew to 62K in the process.

Currently, I am working on the edit pass for 'Empire: Country' - after spending most of the last two months on rewrite number four. I hope to get that wrapped up prior to NaNo, when I'll unwind with what is supposed to be a 12-14K novelette.

I have half a dozen first drafts of additional tales ranging from 35-75K awaiting rewrites and revisions. At my current progress, I might get the second rewrites taken care of for three of them. Of these three, one *might* be good enough afterwards to where I can go straight to an edit pass. Most likely, it, and the others, will require at least one more additional rewrite, plus an edit pass.
 

La Volpe

Sage
Let's take for instance B's brother. Why does he even exist? The fact that he could be killed early or could be saved by her and not die at all might be a sign that he's merely a convenient plot device to get A and B to work together and/or to motivate B. The monster seems a more significant fact for the story; the brother, not so much at all. (The description you gave for your story was rather vague, heh, so I'm only grasping at the reason for the brother's existence.) Plot devices are not a bad thing, are actually necessary, but inserting one as a convenience can throw the whole conceptualization phase off, and when you begin to revise you could find yourself keeping an unnecessary plot device from an earlier draft and working around it in ways that a) prevent you from seeing alternate structures for your story that could work much better, or even b) cause you to make alterations that end up throwing a lot of other things out of whack.
As always, you seem to have hit the nail right on the head. Those reasons you mention is pretty much exactly why I put the brother in in the first place. He has since moulded into the story a bit, but not much except B's motivation and reason to work with A will change if he's gone.

I think I should rethink the plot quite a bit. Thanks, Fifth.

But I'm determined to do this. While I continued revising and trying to create a publishable novel, I was also studying the craft. I compared my manuscript attempts to the ideals that the experts exposed me to. I saw where I was failing. So my next revision took that failure into account. Then I learned more, and realized another revision was called for. Now my wife is telling me to stop studying the craft, because she's afraid I'll read something else that will make me want to do yet another big revision. :) But I'm feeling confident that this time will be it. My plan is to not do another major revision after this one, and go with what I have. I'll submit to agents and see what comes of it. I'll learn more, and apply the new knowledge when I revise the second novel.

This is pretty much what I feel is happening with my writing as well. Every time I get to an almost finished product, I have learned new things, and therefore need to do it over to incorporate those things, ad nauseum.

I feel your pain La Volpe. I'm probably retaining around 10% of the material from the first draft. The story is basically the same, but the execution was just lousy the first time I wrote it out.

...

But now I realize I'm really doing two things at the same time. Not only am I revising my novel, I'm in the process of learning how to write and revise a novel as well. Knowing that makes me relax a little about not getting very far on a given day. And I know next time I'll have more knowledge and experience, and it will go a little smoother.

Try to hang in there!

Yeah, I'm also hoping that the process of revising this novel will be a good learning experience for the future. Every time I think that the novel cannot be saved, I have to remind myself that even if it's true, I'm still learning valuable lessons by revising it.

Once I latched on to the theme, once I knew that clearly, the log line was easy. My next novel is about a half-elf, half-human girl who finds out she is neither. That's it. Lots of other stuff in there, and I can elaborate on that, but that's the bedrock. Maybe I just got lucky with this one, but I don't think so. I've another novel in the wings and it's a good story and I like the characters, but I don't have that theme clearly in mind yet, so it sits and bubbles on one of my innumerable back burners. The first story concept that emerges with a clear theme gets to jump to the head of the queue.

So do you decide your theme before you start writing? I.e. as part of the developmental phase?

I generally try to get a really solid logline of round about 20 words to avoid sprawling into a hundred directions when I write (though it's clearly not working very well for me).

I have half a dozen first drafts of additional tales ranging from 35-75K awaiting rewrites and revisions. At my current progress, I might get the second rewrites taken care of for three of them. Of these three, one *might* be good enough afterwards to where I can go straight to an edit pass. Most likely, it, and the others, will require at least one more additional rewrite, plus an edit pass.

I have a bunch of drafts for novels that's just sitting there. I occasionally toy with the idea of rewriting/revising some of them, but they're just so bad... Anyway, good luck with your rewrites and revisions.
 
I love the revision process, since I feel like that's when I really get to work on the story and it comes together in a way that makes sense and reflects the theme. The last novel I revised ended up being 100% new material, not a single word was saved, though the general concept of the story was the same. I would say it is absolutely the same story I started with even though it involved heavy changes in things like settings and even a supporting character was changed to a major antagonist (and wow does he shine in that role.) Revision is when you get to sit back and look at the story as a whole, identify what went right and what went wrong and make everything wonderful. It's also when I really identify my theme. I don't give theme much thought in the rough draft, but I identify it pretty early in the revision process.

My current RIP is going to require an extensive rewrite, though perhaps not quite as bad as my first novel's. A list of what I needed to do to this thing (I'm nearing the end of the process, just about to actually start the re-writing of parts)
-rename the main character
-add one baddie and eliminate another
-expand on mysteries/backstories of supporting characters
-magic system clarification
-and the biggest change (other than the stuff with the baddies) rewrite the beginning entirely to match the rest of the novel
There are also smaller things as well, like making sure I've got enough details. I write for sparsely in rough drafts, and making sure characters are all talking in a manner they would actually talk in.

It's a lot of work, make no mistake, but the goal is to only do it once. That's how I was taught. And revising is a skill entirely separate from writing. You have to learn to revise just like you had to learn how to write, but because it requires a finished manuscript, fewer people make it to this step.
 

Eric Hawke

Dreamer
When revising, I think it's important to take a step back and try to look at the story all anew. Don't get married to plotlines and chapters just because you "really like them". It's time to be brutally honest and look at what works and what doesn't. I don't have a lot to add regarding practical advice on how to do this, but I believe that your attitude while revising is actually very important.
 
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