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Point of view

Rkcapps

Sage
Aargh! I suspect I've written my book in the wrong Point of View. Have you ever done that? What to do? The danger of reading is I confront Point of View that work and I feel mine doesn't. Just started a new book and my doubts rise to the surface. I'm about 30,000 words in (after ditching 70,000).
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
Why do you think it's wrong? What is not working? Have your beta readers told you the same?
 

Rkcapps

Sage
I wanted an "in the moment" perspective and I felt third person did that but I think I should've used first person. I think 'meh' my work would get by but a first person perspective could make it pop. For example, this is my first paragraph:

Tizania clung to the thick trunk of The Muster Tree. Soggy leaves screened her from the throbbing hum of the gathered crowd. Her heart thumped. If she hid here, perhaps the sorcerer might skip her until next year? What were the chances? Nil, nil and none again. Not with her luck. Jelly fingers barely suctioned her to the tree. What if she possessed magic? Her kind of healing wasn’t considered magic, was it? She despised magic but the fact no one had been chosen at a Syphon Day ceremony in twenty years did not prevent a multitude of panicked butterflies popping in her stomach.

I feel like an observer but the idea of changing it is daunting (due to my physical challenges).
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
1st or 3rd is bigger than what will make a paragraph pop. My bigger issue with the stories (long format) I tend to write is that 1st doesn't cut it for getting all the information in that's needed. Multi-POV, for instance. I need the reader to know things the character doesn't to achieve what I'm gunning for. So, first off, you have to ask whether the novel will work from 1st POV. What you gain can be offset by what you lose.

Also, you can make your third pop more (maybe) if you rethink the question marks, narrate in more certain terms to drum tension. Get the reader more into the scene.
 
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T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
I wrote 70k words a a couple years ago just to realize the majority of the story needed a major overhaul; a whole new story line. The 1st person 70k story line is now relegated to a 10% recurring flashback that ties the past to the present.

So, yeah, it happens. In my opinion, as long as my changes make the story better, I'm willing to put in the work. But, you should have a clear definable reason why the already written parts do not work, and a clear understanding of how your proposed changes would make it better.

In my example, in the 1st person story (the original 70k), I felt that POV choice didn't work as the story proper because, being told in past tense, it robbed urgency. It would be obvious to the reader that the main character survived, which needed to be in question for the story reveals to work.

As it stands, I had to create a whole new character cast, several new story lines, backstories, and settings for what now accounts for 90% of the story told in third person. As I said before, the first person accounts are now flashbacks given periodically. The structure changed to the "Story Within a Story" framework.

I feel it works now. The changes made it better.
 
Yes, different POV's work better for different stories. But if your writing doesn't "pop," my instinct is that maybe you should look deeper than POV. A change in POV won't fix something that already isn't working.

It could be that you need to switch POV though. That could for sure be a pain. Most likely it'll be more than changing the pronouns; first-person POV often has the character's individual voice and perspective bleed far more into the narration.

Not sure i've ever had this problem. but i feel for you.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
The notion that this is inherently a POV problem may be part of the issue. People seem to operate on assumptions about POV that aren't necessarily true, and constrain their writing accordingly. You can do just about anything with one POV as another. If one comes more naturally to you, you may be more effective at getting the desired result initially (e.g. getting that close perspective in 1st person may feel easier than third), but with practice you can do it just as well with another POV. This includes having multiple points of view, which can be (and is) done in novels with 1st person POV.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
It would be obvious to the reader that the main character survived, which needed to be in question for the story reveals to work.

As a bit of an aside:

Is this true, though? I've read first person narrations where the narrator doesn't survive, so I don't assume anything anymore. First person narration is a stylistic choice like any other. The narrator doesn't have to live through it and actually be recounting it to the reader. You can do it that way, as an option, but it isn't a requirement.

Which isn't to say your choice for your novel was wrong, by any means. I'm sure it was not and that it works better in its current form. But I've seen first person narrations follow a character right up to the moment of death, when they can't possibly be recounting a series of events. A first person POV does not mean someone is actually recounting past or present events to the reader.
 
I tend to agree with Steerpike. Just about anything can be accomplished in a given POV choice. I do believe that the different POVs have some differences, accomplish some things and have some limits that don't arise outside those POV approaches. But I'd explore other factors in the writing before making the snap decision to switch POV styles.

So you want "in the moment" feels. The obvious, and maybe good or maybe not, decision would be to go with present tense:

Tizania clings to the thick trunk of The Muster Tree. Soggy leaves screen her from the throbbing hum of the gathered crowd. Her heart thumps. If she hides here, perhaps the sorcerer might skip her until next year? What are the chances? Nil, nil and none again. Not with her luck. Jelly fingers barely suction her to the tree. What if she possesses magic? Her kind of healing isn't considered magic, is it? She despises magic, but the fact no one has been chosen at a Syphon Day ceremony in twenty years does not prevent a multitude of panicked butterflies popping in her stomach.

I don't know the precise "in the moment feel" you want, or whether it's just for some parts of the book and not others. Normally, I don't much like novels written in present tense. But it can work wonderfully.

There are other things to look at. Your character is musing on past events here. Her mental focus—that POV—is NOT "in the moment." So if you want an in the moment feel, you might need to rephrase or eliminate altogether those parts where her mind is elsewhere or contemplating timeless, ongoing realities.
 
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Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
Multi-POV 1st person for more than a couple POVs, as far as getting a publisher's attention, will raise the hurdle. So, depends on the goal. The same goes for 3rd, but from what I hear from agents and pubs, doing more than 2 POV's in 1st tends to be problematic. For one, because you must make the voices vary, with distinct patterns, if it's to be done well. The more POV's the greater distinct voice hurdle. In 3rd, the writer's voice gets more of a pass because of narrator mode.

The notion that this is inherently a POV problem may be part of the issue. People seem to operate on assumptions about POV that aren't necessarily true, and constrain their writing accordingly. You can do just about anything with one POV as another. If one comes more naturally to you, you may be more effective at getting the desired result initially (e.g. getting that close perspective in 1st person may feel easier than third), but with practice you can do it just as well with another POV. This includes having multiple points of view, which can be (and is) done in novels with 1st person POV.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Multi-POV 1st person for more than a couple POVs, as far as getting a publisher's attention, will raise the hurdle. So, depends on the goal. The same goes for 3rd, but from what I hear from agents and pubs, doing more than 2 POV's in 1st tends to be problematic. For one, because you must make the voices vary, with distinct patterns, if it's to be done well. The more POV's the greater distinct voice hurdle. In 3rd, the writer's voice gets more of a pass because of narrator mode.

You have to be able to make it work, certainly. Anything non-standard is likely to present a bigger hurdle. The books I've seen where multiple POVs are used often have a single first person POV, and then other characters in third person. But you'd be surprised how many new authors I come across who think if you use a first person POV you're automatically stuck with that POV for the whole book.
 
Tizania clung to the thick trunk of The Muster Tree. Soggy leaves screened her from the throbbing hum of the gathered crowd. Her heart thumped. If she hid here, perhaps the sorcerer might skip her until next year? What were the chances? Nil, nil and none again. Not with her luck. Jelly fingers barely suctioned her to the tree. What if she possessed magic? Her kind of healing wasn’t considered magic, was it? She despised magic but the fact no one had been chosen at a Syphon Day ceremony in twenty years did not prevent a multitude of panicked butterflies popping in her stomach.

I feel like an observer but the idea of changing it is daunting (due to my physical challenges).

I'll clarify something I said in my previous comment. The bit "no one had been chosen at a Syphon Day ceremony in twenty years" is the narrator's mind thinking back to those twenty years, if only briefly, and this could create some distance between present events and the reader. If there's distance between the POV narrator and present events, and we experience those events through the POV, there'll be distance for us also.

Such a tidbit might or might not create much distance. My general thought is that something like a feeling of being in the moment, or not being in the moment, might be the result of a confluence of factors. Something as simple as a change in POV could have some effect, but so could changing other things.

Demesnedenoir's suggestion of using "more certain terms" might also help to make the difference. "The gathered crowd" is a shapeless thing, almost an abstraction. The simple "the sorcerer" is similarly vague, almost an abstraction. If we were instead to see specific details, something sharp enough do delineate a specific crowd and sorcerer, this might give us a sense of really being there.

Also, much of her other thinking is also in the abstract. "If she hid here, perhaps the sorcerer might skip her until next year? What were the chances? Nil, nil and none again. Not with her luck." These, I think, are great thoughts for giving us a sense of her present thoughts, hah, but they are abstractions. If we are to experience the scene through the POV, these abstractions take place in the mind and not in the present milieu. Inside the mind is no-place and no-when, heh. Okay, so I'm waxing theory here.

As far as present tense goes...I think it could work, but it might not be what you want for the whole book, hah. Or it might, I don't know. I seem to recall Dan Wells in a recent Writing Excuses podcast saying he'd been sneaky in his books by slipping into present tense sometimes when he's delivering his POV character's thoughts. Would this maybe help too? I don't know. Experimenting with your paragraph, I might get something like this:

Tizania clung to the thick trunk of The Muster Tree. Soggy leaves screened her from the throbbing hum of the gathered crowd. Her heart thumped. If she hid here, perhaps the sorcerer might skip her until next year? What are the chances? Nil, nil and none again. Not with her luck. Jelly fingers barely suctioned her to the tree. What if she possesses magic? Her kind of healing isn't considered magic, is it? She despised magic but the fact no one had been chosen at a Syphon Day ceremony in twenty years did not prevent a multitude of panicked butterflies popping in her stomach.​

Does that work? Heh, I've been curious about this since hearing that podcast. But again, one single change may not be all that's needed; using this method might require more careful thinking about what is thought by the character, how it is worded.

For that matter, using italicized direct thought can give a sense of being in the moment, also. So for example:

If she hid here, perhaps the sorcerer might skip her until next year? What were the chances? Nil, nil and none again. Not with my luck. Jelly fingers barely suctioned her to the tree.​

In a way, these last two ideas are almost accentuating the first-person feel of the general third person approach, heh.

Anyway, all this is just to inspire different ways of thinking about achieving what you want. Any number of combinations, approaches to the prose, could be used together.
 

Heliotrope

Staff
Article Team
Margaret Attwood uses third person present tense to great effect in Oryx and Crake. I loved it.

Snowman wakes before dawn. He lies unmoving, listening to the tide coming in, wave after wave sloshing over the various barricaded, wish-wash, wish-wash, the rhythms of a heartbeat. He would so like believe he is still asleep.

On the eastern horizon there's a grayish haze, lit now with a rosy, deadly glow. Strange how the colour still seems tender. The offshore towers stand out in the dark silhouette against it, rising improbably out of the pink and pale blue of the lagoon. The shrieks of birds that nest out there and the distant ocean grinding against the ersatz reefs of rusted car parts and jumbled bricks and assorted rubble sound almost like holiday traffic.


I think, that the comments of some of the others are right on.

You know what I might suggest? I know you said you didn't want to do this, but it is a good exercise... try writing it out in first person, but then go back and change it to third. You may find that you end up with a closer third, which is what you might be looking for. It will take away the "separateness" that you are struggling with, and put you deeper into the head of the POV.

I'll try to show you what I mean....
 

TWErvin2

Auror
As others have said, POV is more than about 'pop' of a paragraph or scene. It's what carries the story to the reader for the enter length. Decision is, which is best to relay the story to the reader?

Similarly, I think sometimes people go for present tense instead of past tense because they want the story and writing to feel more immediate to the reader. While the tense may have an impact, the overall writing and the story itself will have a greater impact on the reader.
 

Heliotrope

Staff
Article Team
Tizania clung to the thick trunk of The Muster Tree. Soggy leaves screened her from the throbbing hum of the gathered crowd. Her heart thumped. If she hid here, perhaps the sorcerer might skip her until next year? What were the chances? Nil, nil and none again. Not with her luck. Jelly fingers barely suctioned her to the tree. What if she possessed magic? Her kind of healing wasn’t considered magic, was it? She despised magic but the fact no one had been chosen at a Syphon Day ceremony in twenty years did not prevent a multitude of panicked butterflies popping in her stomach.

).

Ok, rewrite from first person, dialling into her perspective instead of the outside perspective...

I clung to the thick trunk of the muster tree, trying to ignore the pain as I pulled myself closer against the jagged bark. Only soggy leaves screened me from the throbbing hum of the gathering crowd. My heart jumped to my throat and I whispered a quick prayer that I wouldn't be seen. Between the leaves I could just make out the tall blue, pointed hat worn by the sorcerer. Soon he would be only feet from where I hid, scratched and bleeding from the Muster bark. Magic was something I can never considered, but in this moment, for the first time, I wondered what it would be like. What if I could just reach out one finger and blow him away? Turn him into a cat? A frog? Freeze him on the spot into a statue of ice. The thought brought a small smile to my lips but didn't prevent the multitude of panicked butterflies from popping in my stomach. It was only a fantasy, after all. My small talent in healing wasn't real magic. Not compared to the power of the sorcerer.

Ok. So when I have it written out in first person everything comes out from the MC perspective. We are in her head. All I have to do now is clean it up a bit and switch it to third....

Tizania tried to ignore the pain as she pulled herself against the jagged bark of the Muster tree. Only a thin canopy of soggy leaves screened her from the throbbing hum of the gathering crowd. Heart jumping to her throat she choked a quick prayer that she wouldn't be seen. Between the leaves she could barely make out the familiar shape of the tall blue, pointed hat worn by the sorcerer. Soon he would be only feet from where she crouched, scratched and bleeding, pressed against the Muster bark. Magic was something she had never considered, but in this moment, for the first time, she wondered what it would be like if she could just reach out one finger and blow him away? Turn him into a cat? A frog? Freeze him on the spot into a statue of ice. The thought brought a small smile to her lips but didn't prevent the multitude of panicked butterflies from popping in her stomach. It was only a fantasy. Her small talent in healing wasn't real magic. Not compared to the power of the sorcerer.

That sort of exercise gets you closer to the POV, so you not so much of an observer. I hope that is helpful :)
 
That's adding a lot Helio, heh, but I like the idea of first writing in 1st person and then translating into 3rd. There are lots of occasions I've discovered I've fallen into the trap of looking AT my character rather than looking AS my character would, if that makes sense.
 

Rkcapps

Sage
Thanks, guys, all excellent thoughts. I really like the exercise you played out Helio. That would've taken me all morning to type! lol! It definitely feels more in her head. That's what I need to do. I can see, while I like both POVs, I'll stick with the second. I suppose it really boils down to personal choice while doing the story/character(s) justice.

I did start with 3 POVs but dialled it back to 1 POV because while I've had to alter how information is revealed I'm still learning and tackling 3 POVs was ambitious. Best I master 1 first!

Love that Atwood quote, simply sublime :)
 

Rkcapps

Sage
Gotta say, you guys really helped. I feel I unlocked my problem and I'm writing more what I wanted. At least, it sure feels that way. That writing first person trick (well, i think it or I'd take too long) really works. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
 
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