What counts as "moving the plot forward"?

[BiggusBeardus]

Hello!

I've been working on actually writing chapters, but I'm concerned I'm writing "filler."

I'm going back and writing a new outline and determining how each chapter "moves the plot forward" but I'm not entirely sure what that means. The basic plot is find the magical relic. Not every chapter is the MC searching for the relic. Other stuff has to happen.

For example, in chapter 2 the MC is training with his father. The dad is a famous adventurer and the MC wants to be one too. The MC has come up with his first "adventure" and is preparing for it. The whole chapter is mainly the training and some family interaction time and right now it is sitting at 5812 words. In my mind, the training for the adventure is what is moving the plot forward because the MC needs to be prepared for stuff. And the other stuff in the chapter shows the MC in his "ordinary world" before he enters the "Special world" of the adventure. If I only had what "moves the plot forward" it would be one sentence: Dal trains to prepare for his adventure. That's dumb.

Other chapters may just introduce other characters and tie them into the story. Not much really "happens."

I read books all the time that have all kinds of stuff going on that doesn't really move the plot forward as far as I can tell.

So what counts as "moving the plot forward?"

 

[Jackarandajam]

I would suggest studying a movie or book with a vaguely similar plot. Grab your three act structure and follow along, and see how they do it.
I'm not recommending ripping straight from the movie or book, obviously, but for instance Karate Kid focuses alot on training being a part of the plot. Maybe checking out how the training ties in, how the personal growth of the kid hinges on it, etc.

Mainly, making sure that you're building to the discovery of the artifact (which you're doing) and sticking to the parts that are relevant to the MCs personal arc (which is what you may be sensing is off?) Would be moving your plot forward.

 

[radberry]

I generally think developing character is very important, as long as it feels like this is helping to develop the MC I'd say you're good, also fluff can be good to develop a connection between reader and character. I'd say your doing good the biggest thing is that something changes by the end of the chapter and sometimes it's something like the MC being a little more ready for their journey.

 

[ThinkerX]

Hello!

I've been working on actually writing chapters, but I'm concerned I'm writing "filler."

I'm going back and writing a new outline and determining how each chapter "moves the plot forward" but I'm not entirely sure what that means. The basic plot is find the magical relic. Not every chapter is the MC searching for the relic. Other stuff has to happen.

For example, in chapter 2 the MC is training with his father. The dad is a famous adventurer and the MC wants to be one too. The MC has come up with his first "adventure" and is preparing for it. The whole chapter is mainly the training and some family interaction time and right now it is sitting at 5812 words. In my mind, the training for the adventure is what is moving the plot forward because the MC needs to be prepared for stuff. And the other stuff in the chapter shows the MC in his "ordinary world" before he enters the "Special world" of the adventure. If I only had what "moves the plot forward" it would be one sentence: Dal trains to prepare for his adventure. That's dumb.

Other chapters may just introduce other characters and tie them into the story. Not much really "happens."

I read books all the time that have all kinds of stuff going on that doesn't really move the plot forward as far as I can tell.

So what counts as "moving the plot forward?"

Have something happen relevant to the plot - news of trouble in a place the MC visits later in the story, or a despicable act by the villain.

 

[Penpilot]

To me, it just means making progress towards the goal. Sometimes that progress may seem like loosing ground, but it's all progress. In order to get from the beginning to the end, the characters have to go through certain things, learn lessons, gain skills, and/or knowledge. But it shouldn't be easy. They have to earn it.

In some ways you can think of it like a football game (American football). One team is trying to get the ball down field into the opposing endzone to score. With each play, the other team is trying to stop you, or even drive you back. Sometimes you make progress. Sometimes you loose ground. Sometimes you lose possession of the ball and have to get it back. Sometimes you get into the endzone, and score, but then, the other team comes roaring back and scores, too. There's this back and forth, but at the end, typically, your team wins.

Now, with that said, broadly speaking, with stories there are three things you can do, advance the plot, expand the world, and develop character. An OK scene does one of these three things. A good scene does two. A great scene does all three. Not every scene needs to be great, but for me, I aim for them being at least good. If a scene is only OK, it's a candidate to be edited out and what it does moved into another scene. Now, it's only a candidate. If I can justify the scene to remain in, it remains in.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I'm going back and writing a new outline and determining how each chapter "moves the plot forward" but I'm not entirely sure what that means

I think you have the advice wrong (or almost right, which might be worse...). Each chapter should move the story forward. But a story is not just plot. A story is a combination of plot, setting, and characters, all bound together by conflict.

The plot is just "find the relic". To do so they must travel to X, discover these 4 clues, solve that mystery, and defeat the antagonist who also wants it (or something like that). Those are purely plot points.

But then you also have character moments. Your character needs to learn Y, he needs to work together with two other characters, he needs to learn Z about himself. That sort of thing.

For worldbuilding, maybe you'll discover why the relic was hidden. Or what's so special about it. Or you'll learn about the cult protecting it. Or that it's the wrong relic you're after. Maybe you'll find far-away lands where monsters roam and magic is real. Or whatever.

Each scene should move at least one of those points forward, though I'd probably argue that a pure worldbuilding scene is hard to make interesting (unless you're Tolkien probably). I agree with Penpilot that having a scene do more than one thing is better. Try to aim for that, but don't stress it too much. A nice thing, besides connecting world, setting, and character together, is that scenes that do multiple things allow you to hide stuff from your reader in plain sight. If your characters are battling the cult that's protecting the relic, then your reader will focus on this worldbuilding / plot part of the chapter. But it's a nice way to have the characters have a moment together where maybe they learn to trust and respect each other more, without writing a scene that screams at the reader "LOOK HOW THESE CHARACTERS GROW CLOSER TOGETHER!! PAY ATTENTION TO THAT!". Or it lets you slip in worldbuilding without the character noticing.

As for the original question, it's hard to judge if 6k words is too much for a training scene. Firstly, it depends on the length of the novel. If it's 75k words, then 6k is a lot (closing in on 10%...). If it's 150k words, then it might still be long, but it doesn't have to be too long. Then it also depends on what happens in the scene. If it's only training, then it might be too long. If we also learn about the plot and the world, then it could be okay.

Without having read any of it, my gut feeling is that you probably want to split up the chapter. Most character arcs work best if the character learns stuff throughout the book. If your character learns all he needs to know in the second chapter, then there is little to grow into.

 

[Penpilot]

One thing I forgot to mention, for a novel, you usually have more than one plot. There are usually at least two, often more. There's the bigger overarching plot and a smaller more personal plot. The smaller plot supports the larger plot. Depending on the size of the story, there can be more of each, way more.

Different scenes can be moving different plots forward or one scene can move several forward.

I'm not sure if I've recommended this to you before, but check out this video on the 7 point plot structure by Dan Wells. It might help you visualize how to put things together with multiple plots.

 

[BiggusBeardus]

One thing I forgot to mention, for a novel, you usually have more than one plot. There are usually at least two, often more. There's the bigger overarching plot and a smaller more personal plot. The smaller plot supports the larger plot. Depending on the size of the story, there can be more of each, way more.

Different scenes can be moving different plots forward or one scene can move several forward.

I'm not sure if I've recommended this to you before, but check out this video on the 7 point plot structure by Dan Wells. It might help you visualize how to put things together with multiple plots.

Thanks for the response!

Sub/side plots are another thing I'm struggling with. I think I have some elements that could be a sub plot, but I'm not sure.

Right now, I have a few chapters that introduce all the characters in the story, then they jump into the adventure. During this time all the characters are together doing stuff. There aren't any other significant characters in the story.

So if all my characters are together pursuing the same goal, how do I fit in sun plots?

 

[Demesnedenoir]

This is tricky, but I'm going take a blind swing here... 6k words is probably bloated even if you are moving something forward. Why?

I'm going by memory, but take a look at Silence of the Lambs by Thomas Harris. Granted, this is a different genre, but read a while and see how much happens in his chapters while they probably average 2k words. A whole helluva lot can happen in 2k words without it feeling scrunched. Silence is an incredibly well-structured story, so good that the movie follows it better than most adaptations ever will.

Training: Take a note from movies; training is best as a montage. For in-depth training, the plot must be happening around it unless somehow the training is the plot. Most training does not move the plot; it is more of a pillar to support the plot's suspension of disbelief and establish the credibility of the character's strength. See the movie The Count of Monte Cristo. We need to believe that Edmond can actually defeat the noble Fernand and others with a sword, but it does not move the plot forward. Look at Clarice in Silence of the Lambs and her training at Quantico with the FBI. It does not move the plot forward; it establishes her credibility until she is recruited for a special assignment, which is what moves the plot forward.

So, long story short: The plot is the plot; for it to move forward, a core element with respect to the character and plot must change. This can be internal or external. Establishing the normal world and character credibility are important, but when done well, it reveals/teases the audience not just with character but with important plot elements, even if we don't recognize them on our first read.

 

[pmmg]

So whats happening in the story while the MC is 'training'?

What happened in chapter 1 that is the introduction of the conflict?

If nothing is in motion, and this is just 'a day in the life of' kind of stuff, its probably not that engaging.

To move the plot forward, we should see things changing, or have some awareness that something going on elsewhere is going to come home to the character you want us to follow.

 

[Incanus]

I'm largely in agreement with many of these responses. I also think it's more about moving the 'story' forward, rather than just the plot.

I'm thinking about the training scenes of the Night's Watch from early in Game of Thrones. We see that Jon Snow has already received training before he gets there, making him the king of the hill, so to speak. But then Sam arrives. Everyone wants to dump on him, but Jon Snow defends and befriends him, which makes Jon stand out among the other Night's Watch crew.

Not a lot of plot development, but the characters and situation are being established and developed.

Yes, I would recommend some other story element be addressed alongside the training itself.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

The thing here is "change" amongst the many subplots of ASoIaF. Most chapters of ASoIaF don't move the overarching plot much, but they do move subplots that are subsequently linked to the overarching plot. Also, some of this isn't obvious, but if you look at it as a "game of thrones" and who will win the throne, the plot does thicken because we begin to see Snow's potential to grow into a leader. The movement is mainly subplot related, but it's still connected. Training isn't the movement, he's just smacking people around, but he has internal movement that is important. I'd say there is more going on yet, but I'd have to review the chapters and cleanse my brain of the GoT series.

Movement is, in many cases, better thought of as change related to plot/subplot.

I'm largely in agreement with many of these responses. I also think it's more about moving the 'story' forward, rather than just the plot.

I'm thinking about the training scenes of the Night's Watch from early in Game of Thrones. We see that Jon Snow has already received training before he gets there, making him the king of the hill, so to speak. But then Sam arrives. Everyone wants to dump on him, but Jon Snow defends and befriends him, which makes Jon stand out among the other Night's Watch crew.

Not a lot of plot development, but the characters and situation are being established and developed.

Yes, I would recommend some other story element be addressed alongside the training itself.

 

[BiggusBeardus]

Thanks for the responses folks!

Demesnedenoir I have decided to make the training a montage. I don't really know how to do that in writing (as opposed to film), but I'll figure it out.

pmmg I am rewriting what I've got. I think it's boring and doesn't move things at all. What happened in chapter 1 was showing the goal of the MC and showed his internal conflict. But like I said, I'm rewriting all of it. I've only done about 20k words total, so it's not that much to redo.

I appreciate all of you helping me understand this.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

It's difficult to say, but in novels, the montage is often a quick training scene with a sentence or two about other training. And the montage isn't directly the thing. A good cinematic scene that translates well to books is Luke and Obi-Wan on the Millennium Falcon with Han spouting off about the Force being a hokey religion. This is a training scene that moves the story with change. Actually more than one change, but I'll focus on the one training related. What we learn here is that Luke isn't just some goofy, one might say a tad whiny, farm kid. He has the ability to use the Force, and he's beginning to see this for himself. We learn a lot of character things in this scene with the banter, plus showing how strong Ben's connection to the Force is with sensing Alderaan's destruction, but the key component is Luke can wield the Force. He struggles, he overcomes (a positive change), and then we zip right into, oh crap, we're caught. Some writers might not have written this scene, some might have written it as a throwaway transition, Lucas used it to build the basis of the story and characters.

How to do these things is where the real art of story-telling takes place.

Thanks for the responses folks!

Demesnedenoir I have decided to make the training a montage. I don't really know how to do that in writing (as opposed to film), but I'll figure it out.

pmmg I am rewriting what I've got. I think it's boring and doesn't move things at all. What happened in chapter 1 was showing the goal of the MC and showed his internal conflict. But like I said, I'm rewriting all of it. I've only done about 20k words total, so it's not that much to redo.

I appreciate all of you helping me understand this.

 

[ThinkerX]

'The humiliation from his first attempt to complete the move still lingered in his mind. But that was months ago. He'd actually succeeded the fourth time - but failed eight more times in a row. Two days ago, he'd almost pulled it off. But today would be different. Today, he'd succeed.'

 

[Prince of Spires]

If you want to see examples of training scenes, and moving the story, I can recommend the Cradle series, by Will Wight. They're a relatively fast read. Especially from book 2 onwards do the main characters do a lot of training. And it works really well.

 

[BiggusBeardus]

If you want to see examples of training scenes, and moving the story, I can recommend the Cradle series, by Will Wight. They're a relatively fast read. Especially from book 2 onwards do the main characters do a lot of training. And it works really well.

Thanks! That sounds perfect!

 

[skip.knox]

Reading about writing is good; I don't discourage you from doing it because it will help. At the same time (I do mean that literally), keep writing even though you don't "know" what you're doing. Because none of the advice will be useful until you come to your own understanding of it. Let's take your original post.

What counts as moving the story forward? You yourself claim to have sections of what you've written fail on that score. So, you already have some idea of how *not* to move the story forward. You give one specific: you say those sections bore you. That's a good starting point, because you are the first judge of your work. Still better would be trying to figure out *why* it bores you. That's where the advice, including what's been posted on this thread, can help. Can you spot where and how you're coming up short?

It's worth trying to figure that out It will help when you re-write. Initial writing is often something of a stab in the dark, but you don't want to keep stabbing in darkness. Better to flip on a light.

It's also worth seeing if you can figure out what parts *don't* bore you. What parts work. Then you can start asking why they work. Even things like a battle scene or introducing the MC can be done in a boring way. If you think you've done it well--or well enough, which is my own low standard--then why? What did you do there that was not done over in the boring bit?

So, at last: what counts as moving the story forward? That's for you to discover. So is the reverse--what fails to move the story forward. When you get a sense of that in your own terms, come to your own understanding, that will be a win.